downwardspiral 0 #51 January 20, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Yes, because all your talks, and posts, after posts about guns is such intelligent conversations. Go back and read what I said again. I didn't say that kallend's posts weren't intelligent. I accused him of side-tracking and game-playing. I'm saying that our intelligent conversations here can stay more focused on the actual subject. I actually changed my wording from my original in order to try and keep someone from interpreting it as you did. But it just goes to show, that some people will see what they want to see, no matter what. Some people are more interested in personal attacks, then in actually discussing the subject. More than happy to hear about it if I could get 100% of the numbers from a non-NRA source and non-antigun source and make my own choices. However, whenever I see blatant spinning from either, I go deaf to what they have to say. I've yet to see any topic related to guns on this board that isn't spin, a lecture, anecdotal or anything else. Nor do I ever expect anything more. This is why I find these threads laughable as I go elsewhere for something more intelligent. Years ago I posted a link to an independant international study that found it was culture that determined murder rates. Not gun control or the lack of gun control. I wish I could find it again.www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #52 January 20, 2009 QuoteMore strict gun laws or not, if there is a person out there that means to do you harm, they will find a way to do it. If given a choice, I would much rather be shot to death than beaten to death with a claw hammer. I'd rather educate myself to avoid either situation and not live in fear at the randomness of life. I'll live a happy and full life up until that day with no regrets. Somewhere along the way you are going to die and I don't want that one moment to be the measure of my life. Idealistic? Sure, but it's worked for me so far and 8 years of fear haven't changed that, nor will some random newclippings used to propagate more fear._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #53 January 20, 2009 QuoteMore strict gun laws or not, if there is a person out there that means to do you harm, they will find a way to do it. If given a choice, I would much rather be shot to death than beaten to death with a claw hammer. the hammer is more personal - it really says they care ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #54 January 20, 2009 QuoteYears ago I posted a link to an independant international study that found it was culture that determined murder rates. Not gun control or the lack of gun control. I wish I could find it again. Just on my own life experience, I could see how that could trend out in a study._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stitch 0 #55 January 20, 2009 QuoteQuoteMore strict gun laws or not, if there is a person out there that means to do you harm, they will find a way to do it. If given a choice, I would much rather be shot to death than beaten to death with a claw hammer. I'd rather educate myself to avoid either situation and not live in fear at the randomness of life.For most of us life is random, especially those living in major metropolitan areas. You never know when one of your actions might piss off some random psycho."No cookies for you"- GFD "I don't think I like the sound of that" ~ MB65 Don't be a "Racer Hater" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
downwardspiral 0 #56 January 20, 2009 QuoteQuoteYears ago I posted a link to an independant international study that found it was culture that determined murder rates. Not gun control or the lack of gun control. I wish I could find it again. Just on my own life experience, I could see how that could trend out in a study. For the sake of argument...if what the study said is true (which I believe), shouldn't we focus more on changing our culture rather than trying to control something that can't be controlled?www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,122 #57 January 20, 2009 Our constitution and gun laws are part of our culture. People build their culture around their environment, and with changes to laws, the environment changes. It used to be part of the culture to get shit-faced and then drive or back to work. The three-martini lunch and stopping at a bar on the way home used to be part of the culture. But now the penalties for driving drunk are far more likely to be enforced. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #58 January 20, 2009 QuoteFor most of us life is random, especially those living in major metropolitan areas. You never know when one of your actions might piss off some random psycho. I live in one of those places and know the risk. In fact I've called the cops on a neighbor three times last year for such reasons, including random violence to someone else in my neighborhood and shooting off a handgun (can't own them here). Still, I have no fear, but I'm educated and know how to act and feel no need to arm myself._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #59 January 20, 2009 QuoteFor the sake of argument...if what the study said is true (which I believe), shouldn't we focus more on changing our culture rather than trying to control something that can't be controlled? Either can be controlled? One is a better solution than the other? Which will be more accepted? To be rather blunt the best way to handle this is to educate the young and wait until the ignorant die and they are phased out of influence._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
downwardspiral 0 #60 January 20, 2009 QuoteQuoteFor the sake of argument...if what the study said is true (which I believe), shouldn't we focus more on changing our culture rather than trying to control something that can't be controlled? Either can be controlled? One is a better solution than the other? Which will be more accepted? To be rather blunt the best way to handle this is to educate the young and wait until the ignorant die and they are phased out of influence. I agree completely! This is why we now have a black President. Our culture was changed through education... NOT because we've made it illegal to call someone a N*****.www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stitch 0 #61 January 20, 2009 QuoteQuoteFor most of us life is random, especially those living in major metropolitan areas. You never know when one of your actions might piss off some random psycho. I live in one of those places and know the risk. In fact I've called the cops on a neighbor three times last year for such reasons, including random violence to someone else in my neighborhood and shooting off a handgun (can't own them here). Still, I have no fear, but I'm educated and know how to act and feel no need to arm myself.I never said you needed to arm yourself. Although I'll more than likely get flamed for this. Most people that carry a CCW weapon or keep a weapon solely for home defense are creating a false sense of security. People like to talk big. I saw some breif combat during the Gulf War (I was prepared for that), but I can't say with any certainty what I would do if some stranger walked up to me and shoved a gun in my face. Two very different scenerios."No cookies for you"- GFD "I don't think I like the sound of that" ~ MB65 Don't be a "Racer Hater" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
regulator 0 #62 January 20, 2009 hey shithead...excuse me MR. COMEDY...I thought you were gonna go watch dirty dancing or something. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #63 January 20, 2009 Oh the delicious irony._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
regulator 0 #64 January 20, 2009 what you are referring to sounds more like 'being in the wrong place at the wrong time' rather than being at home and having to defend yourself against an attacker. I have a CCW but I usually dont carry because I dont need to. However I can tell you that I have never killed anyone and I can imagine I could easily get PTSD after I blew someone away that was breaking into my house, but I will definately blow them away first and ask questions later. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #65 January 21, 2009 Quote Your right, because so many people have suceeded in taking away from us since 1776..... I'm sure the former Bush Administration argued zealously and often that the protections of the Fourth Amendment should yield in the interests of national security. As well as the First, Fifth, Sixth, Seventh, Eighth, Tenth, Fourteenth, etc... My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #66 January 21, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteMore than happy to hear about it if I could get 100% of the numbers from a non-NRA source and non-antigun source and make my own choices. However, whenever I see blatant spinning from either, I go deaf to what they have to say. I've yet to see any topic related to guns on this board that isn't spin, a lecture, anecdotal or anything else. Nor do I ever expect anything more. This is why I find these threads laughable as I go elsewhere for something more intelligent. Nothing in my original message here came from the NRA. Not the Brady Campaign ranking, not the gun ownership rate, nor the murder stats. Once again, this just goes to show that you are only seeing what you want to see. You have to keep making up excuses to deny the truth. What I see is you and your post history. It's blinding. I almost never post anything using the NRA as a source. My post history has nothing to do with NRA material. The "blinding" you experience is caused by the blinders you have on your eyes and on your mind. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #67 January 21, 2009 QuoteI'd rather educate myself to avoid either situation... (being shot or hammered to death) Do you believe that everyone who is a crime victim was just uneducated about how to avoid being a victim? Or do you believe that sometimes bad things happen to good people, no matter how hard they try to avoid it? If the former, then all we need to do to eliminate crime is to have mandatory education classes for all children on crime avoidance. And then in a generation, "poof", like magic, crime is gone! If the latter, then it behooves people to be prepared for the worst, should it come their way. And it sometimes does. Last year there were 1.4 million violent crimes in the U.S., or one out of every 214 people. Next year, it will be another one out of 214 people. And so on it goes, year after year. Will you be one of the lucky ones? You probably know people who have been violent crime victims. You may not know it, because it's not something people talk about. But odds are, someone you know has been such a victim. Would you consider them ignorant because they "allowed" themselves to be a victim? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #68 January 21, 2009 QuoteFor the sake of argument...if what the study said is true (which I believe), shouldn't we focus more on changing our culture rather than trying to control something that can't be controlled? Ding ding ding! I'm glad somebody out there gets it. Maybe we should examine the cultural differences between people living in North Dakota, and those living in inner-city Chicago. I expect there is something there to explain why Chicago youth so often shoot each other, while the North Dakotan's don't. It certainly isn't because they have more guns in Chicago. It certainly isn't because they don't have enough gun laws in Chicago. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #69 January 21, 2009 Quote Most people that carry a CCW weapon or keep a weapon solely for home defense are creating a false sense of security. People like to talk big. I saw some breif combat during the Gulf War (I was prepared for that), but I can't say with any certainty what I would do if some stranger walked up to me and shoved a gun in my face. Two very different scenerios. No one really knows how they're react in advance, just as they don't know how they'll handle their first in air malfunction. Having the CCW or the gun at home does gives potential options that wouldn't exist otherwise. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #70 January 21, 2009 QuoteWell I have concidered my self a liberal my whole life and I have always been asked the question, what would you do if it happened to you or a loved one. Well guess what? It did happen. My husband was stabbed to death a year ago and I still keep my beliefs. Guns and certain types of weapons should be regulated. Not taken away, but regulated. Maybe, just maybe, if there were a little bit stricter laws this would not of happened. Doubtfull, but maybe. So I am really confused when you say liberals would change their minds if this happened to them. Because I did not! ... I'm just wondering if maybe, just maybe, your husband would still be here if he'd had a gun. It might have given him a fighting chance against an armed attacker. I'm very sorry for your loss, and I really, sincerely hope for the day when we can all walk on our own streets without anybody harming us. Until that day, as long as there are criminals that are bigger and stronger than I am, and as long as there is a chance that they might have a weapon, I want one too. Our laws should not ask law abiding citizens to face attackers who are bigger, stronger, and better armed. I've been on hold with 911 for minutes. Add onto that the minutes it takes police to respond. A situation goes from bad to worse to dead in seconds, not minutes. I don't want to live in a world where the bad guys have guns and the good guys have cell phones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #71 January 21, 2009 QuoteYou probably know people who have been violent crime victims. You may not know it, because it's not something people talk about. But odds are, someone you know has been such a victim. Would you consider them ignorant because they "allowed" themselves to be a victim? Victim! And I'm sick of people not talking about it because silence gives people a false sense of safety. This world is not safe, and too many people only take steps to protect themselves after they learn that firsthand! Please, learn from my experience, or the experiences of others, so you don't have to learn for yourself. Was it my fault? Absolutely not. The blame lies with the criminal. Could I have been smarter? Absolutely! I was a college student with my head in the clouds, and I wasn't paying attention. Many of us have wandered into the wrong area or made a wrong turn and found themselves in a similar situation. Luckily I knew enough karate that an assault and battery didn't turn into a rape or murder. Many victims aren't that lucky. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #72 January 21, 2009 QuoteI almost never post anything using the NRA as a source. Almost never != never QuoteMy post history has nothing to do with NRA material. It has everything to do with how people react to you and your gun posts. It's a bit cliche at this point. QuoteThe "blinding" you experience is caused by the blinders you have on your eyes and on your mind. After all these years of stating the same stuff over and over, you have missed my point and you prefer to call me blind because I disagree with you on a few things. Here is something I've said to you a few times: I support the 2nd, I have a FOID, I don't want to ban guns, I don't want to own a gun, I like to go to the range for target practice and clay pigeons, and I know I will never need one in my daily life. I've pointed out countless times to you that I don't fall under any label and that I've gone out of my way to educate myself and try to understand the point of view on both sides. You, however, don't want a conversation, you want to tell people how to think and categorize them into some anti-gun stereotype you hold on to if they don't categorically agree._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #73 January 21, 2009 QuoteQuoteI almost never post anything using the NRA as a source. Almost never != never Congratulations, you actually understood what I said that time, instead of making something up out of thin are. That's right, I said ALMOST never. So what? Is it a crime to cite the NRA now and then? Their information is very reliable. The only reason I don't use it is because of people like you, who rules things out based upon the source, rather than the facts. That's an invalid method of determining the credibility of information, but since I know that some people judge based upon emotion rather than logic, I try not to give them that excuse. And I'll bet that less than one percent of the messages I post in gun threads have NRA material in them. Go ahead, see if you can find some, and try and prove me wrong. I double-dog dare you. QuoteI know I will never need one in my daily life. No one can know that. You can no more know that than saying that you'll never have a parachute malfunction and need to use your reserve parachute. There are factors in life, as in skydiving, which are beyond your control. Probably everyone that becomes a victim of violent crime thought that it would never happen to them. Your statement is just plain wrong, and demonstrates those blinders to which I referred. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #74 January 21, 2009 QuoteYears ago I posted a link to an independant international study that found it was culture that determined murder rates. Not gun control or the lack of gun control. I wish I could find it again. Something perhaps similar, altho’ possibly not be the same study to which you referring cited here: Variables found to correlate to high levels of gun ownership are (1) wealthy countries or (2) countries with recent, intense violent conflicts. The former is the case for US & western Europe; the latter reflects the situations in places like Angola and Columbia. See page 21 of the report noted above for a graph showing the range of GDPs and correlation with per capita civilian gun ownership. The authors discuss where that model breaks down, which it does. Where does gun ownership intersect with gun violence? My hypothesis is that there will not be a direct dependency found, i.e., crime levels and extent of gun ownership are independent variables. Quote Maybe we should examine the cultural differences between people living in North Dakota, and those living in inner-city Chicago. I expect there is something there to explain why Chicago youth so often shoot each other, while the North Dakotan's don't. W/r/t “cultural” factors, imo, it’s important to keep in mind: if there are “cultural” factors (variables) at play, particularly w/r/t homicide, we’re generally debating 0.5%, 2%, at most 5% changes in violence levels domestically (per capita). If one goes back to historical data: overall violence has declined most dramatically as the impact of religion on western society has decreased and secular & civil-based law has increased. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #75 January 21, 2009 QuoteNo one can know that. You can no more know that than saying that you'll never have a parachute malfunction and need to use your reserve parachute. There are factors in life, as in skydiving, which are beyond your control. Probably everyone that becomes a victim of violent crime thought that it would never happen to them. Your statement is just plain wrong, and demonstrates those blinders to which I referred. You know what the problem is with trying to derive something from violent crimes, they are all far too situational. Sure, there are patterns related to the category a crime falls into but if there was a solid verifiable answer to guns and crimes 100% of the time there would be no more arguments on the right course of action. But to think you like you do? It must really suck to live in that much fear. I won't ever need one and it's nothing like needing a reserve. You complain about others making wild comparisons and yet here you go. I'm sure the big "what if you happen to be in a situation where...." question will be tossed out soon. Here is my answer: I won't need a gun. You won't ever understand that, so I won't bother explaining the subtle nuances of what that means and how it causes you to live your life. From where I'm sitting I'm more concerned about the damage people do with their mouth on a daily basis more than anything else. Lies, fear, mis truths, rumors, etc are far more damaging and can/do have a greater impact on the moments of the life I live. To sit around and worry about factors that will impact me outside my level of control? No thanks. If it happens, it happens and if that means it's the end of me, oh well. At least I would have lived a good life up to that point. Oh ya, I will discount the NRA as much as I discount the antithesis of it whatever it may be. Propaganda machines may use facts but they are spun. Neutral sources are a far better option. Downwardspiral has made the effort several times to list sites like that and I've openly considered what the topic was. But I do find it ironic the argument you make after you have repeatedly pushed aside news sites as fact sources because you considered them liberal. Well, that is until they publish a story that fits your agenda._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
