Andrewwhyte 1 #576 January 13, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuote Kids who grow up constantly running in and out of bomb shelters are going to hate their enemies. There's no need to teach it. I know people who spent part of their youth sleeping in London tube tunnels. They got over it. Hell even the Irish are learning to get over it. You can choose to teach your children that some day the war will end, or you can teach them that peace is not possible. Your examples are people "getting over it" after the fighting has stopped. This isn't the case here. Actually the Irish got over it before the leaders did; they forced their leaders on both sides to move. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #577 January 13, 2009 QuoteWhy do you continue to make excuses for Hamas? Because in my opinion the actions of Israel has created HAMAS. If the Palestinian people did not have so much frustration, and suffering there would be no HAMAS. There would be no need for a HAMAS. But in the current situation HAMAS is all the Palestinians have. I do not like their tactics as I think the loss of ANY inocent life is a tragedy, but I can understand why they are fighting. Another point: If I seem very one sided which I know I do. One other reason for it is our media. You can disagree with me all you want but our media knows whom they are going to favor in their reports before any facts are even known. Most Americans don’t even get to see the other side, and that really pisses me off because I feel people are being intentionally misled. To me that’s not very American what are they afraid off? I know the answer. American people feel very strongly about justice and oppressive powers. They would not stand for aid being sent to Israel if they knew the whole picture. I am not saying they would start donating money to HAMAS, but I think they would not want to contribute to continuing Israeli action.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #578 January 13, 2009 Quote Quote The difference between a Hamas fighter and an Israeli soldier. Pretty much says it all, doesn't it? Are they really all that different? I don't think so. The boy in this picture was a 13 year old Arab boy and was tied to the front of the vehicle as a human shield by Israeli soldiers. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3650791.stm There are many other examples of Israeli soldiers using human shields. From your article: "Israel's Supreme Court banned the use of human shields in 2002." So, yes, they're different. If the incident is verified, the soldiers or the CO will face punishment. and if the claim is false, well it wouldn't be the first time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #579 January 13, 2009 Hamas is leading them to war with no option for peace. Hamas is using the Palestinians and sacrificing them for their anger and hate of Israel. I would not support Hamas no matter what Israel is doing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #580 January 13, 2009 QuoteYou can disagree with me all you want but our media knows whom they are going to favor in their reports before any facts are even known. Most Americans don’t even get to see the other side, and that really pisses me off because I feel people are being intentionally misled. And I thought the media overstated the suffering of Gaza, giving little attention to the reason for the Israeli action. You'd probably like it here in SF, where Israel is the bad guy no matter what really happens. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #581 January 13, 2009 QuoteI can understand why they are fighting I can understand why they are fighting as well, it doesn't take a genius... it's the part where they swore to kill me and destroy the country I live in, that I have a problem with... QuoteMost Americans don’t even get to see the other side I believe you believe it, but its not as clear cut as you think. I actually think that the media always looks for the "story" and telling the story of the "weak palestinians overwhelmed by Israel" sells more. also, most of the foreign media is using local palestinians, and I'm sure they are very objective too. and trust me, I get CNN, BBC, SKY, and others, maybe beside FOX, they have a completely opposite bias, in my view. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #582 January 13, 2009 QuoteHamas is leading them to war with no option for peace. Hamas is using the Palestinians and sacrificing them for their anger and hate of Israel. Hamas was who the people elected because they felt they are the only ones who give a shit about them. I understand it is counterproductive, but so is the Israeli action. This so called war will amount to nothing.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #583 January 13, 2009 QuoteAnd I thought the media overstated the suffering of Gaza, giving little attention to the reason for the Israeli action. Did you see the daily show link I posted. John Stewart was the only person I watched on TV who even mentioned the other side. He also mentioned how far in the tank every politician and the news media is for Israel. So we are experience the exact opposite. QuoteYou'd probably like it here in SF, where Israel is the bad guy no matter what really happens I like honesty I know we do not agree but I would rather get both sides of every issue then just one every time.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #584 January 13, 2009 It is Hamas that is at fault for this war. Israel has made efforts at a peaceful resolution. Hamas had refused to honor any cease fire. With out a cease fire of both sides there can be no peace process. Hamas was not fully elected as the leadership of the Palestinians. Hamas took over by force by ousting the PA President and taking over. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #585 January 13, 2009 QuoteI can understand why they are fighting as well, it doesn't take a genius Why are they fighting? Just would love to hear your opnion. Quoteit's the part where they swore to kill me and destroy the country I live in, that I have a problem with... Yea I don’t blame you for that I wouldn’t like anyone who wants me dead either. I just think the reason they might not like you or Israelis has a lot more to do with the actions of your government, then you being Jewish or them being Muslim. Quoteand trust me, I get CNN, BBC, SKY, and others, maybe beside FOX, they have a completely opposite bias, in my view. BBC does a good job most of the time, but the others (never watched SKY) are one sided.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #586 January 13, 2009 QuoteIt is Hamas that is at fault for this war. Israel has made efforts at a peaceful resolution. Hamas had refused to honor any cease fire. We disagree. I think GAZA has been a prison camp where the prisoners have been being mistreated for along time. I don’t just choose to see the riot I want to see what caused the riot as well. QuoteHamas was not fully elected as the leadership of the Palestinians. Hamas took over by force by ousting the PA President and taking over. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_legislative_election,_2006 QuoteOn January 25, 2006, elections were held for the Palestinian Legislative Council (PLC), the legislature of the Palestinian National Authority (PNA). Notwithstanding the 2005 municipal elections and the January 9, 2005 presidential election, this was the first election to the PLC since 1996; subsequent elections had been repeatedly postponed due to the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Palestinian voters in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank including East Jerusalem were eligible to participate in the election. Final results show that Hamas won the election, with 74 seats to the ruling-Fatah's 45, providing Hamas with the majority of the 132 available seats and the ability to form a majority government on their own I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #587 January 13, 2009 Quote The consistent hatred you represent for any thing and every thing Muslim is repulsive. I am simply sorry to see it so much from so many. Oh FUCKING WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH Live in peace or DIE in war. Unlike you I do not hate muslims. as you do jews and christians for all the wrongs of the world as you seem to keep bludgeoning us with.. OH POOR HELPESS BROWN PEOPLE... I do despise the fundamentalists of ALL religions.. for thousands of years it has led to death and suffering for millions. Right now.. its MUSLIMS that are perpetuating the fucking stupidity.. and I am glad SOMEONE is willing to stand up and send them off to god since that is what they certainly seem to want. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #588 January 13, 2009 QuoteWhy are they fighting? Just would love to hear your opnion. the short version: because they want the same land as Israel. more detailed: Hamas - because they want all of this land to be their own. They do not accept Israel right to exist and they would not give any of it up for a peaceful resolution. The PA (Fattah, PLO) - less so as they accepted the idea of two states, still a bitter dispute over key issues such as borders and right of return but solvable with good faith and compromises (if they dont resort to violence everytime they dont get all they want) Hezbollah - because they have nothing better to do since Israel has pulled out of Lebanon. and both Hamas and Hezbollah are Iran's proxy. and we all know how they feel about Israel... "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #589 January 13, 2009 Quoteand both Hamas and Hezbollah are Iran's proxy. and we all know how they feel about Israel I think you would be surprised if you knew what the actual people feel like. Most are on Israeli side because they have hate for Arabs, not to mention many of your fellow Israelis I believe even some top government officials are of Persian decent.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #590 January 13, 2009 you said it yourself: QuoteOn January 25, 2006, elections were held for the Palestinian Legislative Council (PLC) They won the elections to parliment, they took over the government by force and they were VERY brutal to their fattah brothers who seeked shelter in Israel... but them being elected only makes my point stronger. if the people in Gaza elected a group who will deny any peaceful resolution, then they have only themselves to blame... "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #591 January 13, 2009 QuoteI think you would be surprised if you knew what the actual people feel like. Most are on Israeli side because they have hate for Arabs, not to mention many of your fellow Israelis I believe even some top government officials are of Persian decent. my problem is not with the Iranian people, its with the fanatic leaders. my aunt was born in Iran. I am well aware of its culture and people. They, unlike the people in Gaza, did NOT elect their government. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #592 January 13, 2009 At this point it doesn't matter what caused the riot. What matters is who will step up and take a leadership role that is willing to end the riot and seek peace. Till the Palestinian people are willing to put "justice" aside and seek peace, there will be no peace. You "justice" is just and excuse for violence. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,433 #593 January 13, 2009 >Till the Palestinian people are willing to put "justice" aside and seek >peace, there will be no peace. And until the Israelis will put aside retribution and seek peace - same thing. It takes two sides. And the longer either side maintains the "it's THEIR fault! WE just want justice/peace/a home/security" attitude the killing will continue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #594 January 13, 2009 Quote>Till the Palestinian people are willing to put "justice" aside and seek >peace, there will be no peace. And until the Israelis will put aside retribution and seek peace - same thing. It takes two sides. And the longer either side maintains the "it's THEIR fault! WE just want justice/peace/a home/security" attitude the killing will continue. Right, they have made attempts to adhere to the cease fires that they have agreed to. I don't see that with Hamas. I don't side with either side. I think neither deserves or is entitled to the land. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #595 January 13, 2009 QuoteAnd until the Israelis will put aside retribution and seek peace - same thing. It takes two sides. And the longer either side maintains the "it's THEIR fault! WE just want justice/peace/a home/security" attitude the killing will continue. I honestly don't think its about retribution or revenge on both sides. Israel has absorbed thousads of rockets over the years. hundreds since the cease fire ended (a week or so before the current operation) and did not react. what would you have Israel do? how long should have Israel "waited" before it was too much? I'm sure Hamas will want revenge now, but that's not its main motivation. what did it need revenge for when Israel pulled out of Gaza? "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,433 #596 January 13, 2009 >Right, they have made attempts to adhere to the cease fires that they >have agreed to. Not quite. They violated the terms of the ceasefire with Hamas almost immediately afterwards. The latest ceasfire (Jun. 19, 2008) had as a condition that the Israelis open all border crossings and "allow the transfer of all goods that were banned and restricted to go into Gaza" two weeks after the beginning of the ceasefire. They didn't. Like I said, both sides bear the blame for this. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #597 January 13, 2009 I did say attempts to adhere to the cease fire not entirely adhering to the cease fire. The least Hamas could do is refrain from firing rockets at Israel. You think that wouldn't be hard to do. It's like to kids fight over the same toy. Ya just want to take the toy away from both of them and send them to their rooms. Both sides are to blame. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #598 January 13, 2009 Quotehad as a condition that the Israelis open all border crossings and "allow the transfer of all goods that were banned and restricted to go into Gaza" two weeks after the beginning of the ceasefire. where did you get this from? I googled this quote and found it but these were not the terms of the cease fire... the terms were: 1. Israel will stop any strikes on Gaza (i,e seeking Hamas leaders, tunnels, etc. 2. Hamas will stop firing rockets (or anything else). the part about the crossings didnt say anything about "open all border crossings to allow anything". it stated that if the cease fire will be kept, Israel will ease the blockade and allow more stuff into Gaza. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #599 January 13, 2009 QuoteI'm getting the impression that there is no such concept as "turn the other cheek" in Islam. Is that a fair statement? Good question. The Shiite's and Sunni's still hate and kill each other over a disagreement that occurred in the 7th century, over who Muhammad's successor should be. I would say that if they were going to let bygones be bygones and live in peace together, they would have done it by now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #600 January 13, 2009 Quote Quote Quote The difference between a Hamas fighter and an Israeli soldier. Pretty much says it all, doesn't it? Are they really all that different? I don't think so. The boy in this picture was a 13 year old Arab boy and was tied to the front of the vehicle as a human shield by Israeli soldiers. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3650791.stm There are many other examples of Israeli soldiers using human shields. From your article: "Israel's Supreme Court banned the use of human shields in 2002." So, yes, they're different. If the incident is verified, the soldiers or the CO will face punishment. and if the claim is false, well it wouldn't be the first time. Crap, I really can't be bothered to do it again but if you search either on the web or even in DZ.com you'll find shed loads of examples of where Israeli soldiers have used human shields since the PR ban in 2002 no prosecutions have ever been made fo it either. Israel uses human sheilds, kills women and children and proberbly don't phone their Mums at the weekend to let them know their ok.... There're are shits on both sides, get used to it. What is it about so many Americans that makes you only see 'Good guys' and 'Bad guys'? Get a grip.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
