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mdrejhon

Intentional Cutaway Desired - Raven Micro 150 Concerns

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>You really believe it's a rigger's responsibility to tell grown-ass men to NOT jump
>approved/airworthy/TSO'd reserves?

To TELL him not to jump it? No. To tell him he risks serious injury or death by doing so? Absolutely.

>You really believe a rigger should NOT pack that same airworty/TSO'd reserve
>just because some jackass never took the time to test jump his reserve type or
>to at least bother to do a couple of test flares prior to landing his reserve?

I think it would be very wise for a rigger to refuse to pack any reserve they feel stands a good chance of injuring or killing its user. That's one of the reasons riggers sign off on a reserve - because someone with (supposedly) better judgment than the jumper has examined it and determined it is airworthy. And in my book that means "can land someone safely" - not just meets the minimum requirements of the TSO/manufacturer.

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billvon

>PDRs don't fly or flare brilliantly either.

True, although they flare WAY better than Micro Ravens.



Potato, potato. Micro Ravens are perfectly suitably reserves. We're just gonna have to agree to disagree.

billvon

>You really believe it's a rigger's responsibility to tell grown-ass men to NOT jump
>approved/airworthy/TSO'd reserves?

To TELL him not to jump it? No. To tell him he risks serious injury or death by doing so? Absolutely.

>You really believe a rigger should NOT pack that same airworty/TSO'd reserve
>just because some jackass never took the time to test jump his reserve type or
>to at least bother to do a couple of test flares prior to landing his reserve?

I think it would be very wise for a rigger to refuse to pack any reserve they feel stands a good chance of injuring or killing its user. That's one of the reasons riggers sign off on a reserve - because someone with (supposedly) better judgment than the jumper has examined it and determined it is airworthy. And in my book that means "can land someone safely" - not just meets the minimum requirements of the TSO/manufacturer.



If I follow your logic I would NEVER pack a reserve 126 or smaller. No matter who made it. What knucklehead in their right mind jumps a reserve at a 1.5+ WL? Can't nanny state everyone. People need to get back in the mindset that this shit is dangerous. Learn to fly a canopy.

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gowlerk

***I've ridden two Micro Raven 150 canopies, both manufactured in 2001 and loaded at 1.4. To describe the flare as strong would be a lie, but I managed to stand both of them up even at high altitude and temperature after a couple practice flares. Figure out the point where a stall starts and quickly flare to that point close to the ground.

They really didn't seem too bad to me, especially after a cranky main.




This may work. But it's really easy to mess it up and hurt yourself with this kind of loading on this kind of canopy. On a reserve ride there is no guarantee that altitude will be available for practice flares. It would be far better to load the dice in your favor, rather than against you.

I agree that there are much better options available to us now. What I was really trying to say is that the gear fear inspired by reading here and my experience on the canopy were two very different things. I wonder if maybe there are some differences between the 90's canopies and those that barely preceded the R-max.

If I were shopping now I would not buy a used Micro Raven to put in a rig, but I'm also not concerned over the performance on those that I rode. They opened quickly, on heading, and got me safely to the ground.

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Problem is that these grown ass men out there do not know jack shit about Micro-Raven, and its max weight capability.

These three skydivers that broke their back and ankle did not know about its flying characteristic. None of them bother to read its maximum suspended weight label, and seriously it says maximum weight at 123lbs or something like that.

All three weighed more than 175 naked. Plus the rig and the clothing will put them around 200 lbs out the door.

I've jumped Smart 120 at 1.9 wingload. Even Smart 120 stalls out at my hip level. The only reserve canopy out there that did not stalled out on me was Optimum 143 at 1.6, 1.7 ish wingloading.

I'm just saying that all the riggers out there should inform these idiots who wants to load Micro Raven more than 1.2 wingload. If they see a fat ass, not so athletic 40 year old bellyflier that jumps Micro, they should tell the jumpers what's up.

Hopefully, threads like these will educate more jumpers and they will perform some sort of practice flair before their first landing on their reserve. For fuck sake, none of those three that broke themselves bothered to even do a single practice flair. That is another problem. Zero ride on these reserve, zero practice flair. If all three has done a single practice flair, they would've avoided ambulance ride.

Has anyone tried to lengthen the toggle length on these Micros?
Bernie Sanders for President 2016

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On a related note. I have a friend who weighs about 170 lbs naked who brings me his rig with a 145 National Phantom to repack. I keep telling him that if he ever needs to use it he will probably have trouble landing it safely for the same reasons as the Micro-Raven. However, I have no real experience with these. Anyone out there with real jumps on one of these care to comment?
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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billvon

>You really believe it's a rigger's responsibility to tell grown-ass men to NOT jump
>approved/airworthy/TSO'd reserves?

To TELL him not to jump it? No. To tell him he risks serious injury or death by doing so? Absolutely.

>You really believe a rigger should NOT pack that same airworty/TSO'd reserve
>just because some jackass never took the time to test jump his reserve type or
>to at least bother to do a couple of test flares prior to landing his reserve?

I think it would be very wise for a rigger to refuse to pack any reserve they feel stands a good chance of injuring or killing its user. That's one of the reasons riggers sign off on a reserve - because someone with (supposedly) better judgment than the jumper has examined it and determined it is airworthy. And in my book that means "can land someone safely" - not just meets the minimum requirements of the TSO/manufacturer.



I generally tend towards the GAM (grown-ass man) part of the spectrum when it comes to packing equipment. If I have concerns that the equipment is not the most appropriate then I will make recommendations, and sometimes very strong recommendations, to the owner about replacement. If the equipment is airworthy, though, I will generally pack it. I think there is a sliding scale for all of us though. I would pack pretty much anything airworthy for 5000 jump CReW Dog w/ 450 jumps in the past year who has modified his own main repeatedly. I would refuse to pack for the newbie who has been taken advantage of and sold gear that is totally inappropriate for him and doesn't know any better.
"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

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gowlerk

On a related note. I have a friend who weighs about 170 lbs naked who brings me his rig with a 145 National Phantom to repack.



I could also imagine it is like a Micro Raven for flying and landing at anything other than light weight.

I only put a couple jumps on National square parachutes, when I was a newbie with 25 jumps, about 24 years ago. I jumped a National Renegade main, a 232 sq. ft 9 cell, at about a 0.7 loading, and found the flare unimpressive, and the stall point at about 60 or 70% of full arm motion. There was also some bulletin out about changing the brake cascades to improve the flare.

Again, my brief exposure as a newbie doesn't make my opinion very authoritative. Still, I just wasn't impressed with National's ability to design a good square canopy. Their squares didn't make much impact on the market either.

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stayhigh

Problem is that these grown ass men out there do not know jack shit about Micro-Raven, and its max weight capability.

These three skydivers that broke their back and ankle did not know about its flying characteristic. None of them bother to read its maximum suspended weight label, and seriously it says maximum weight at 123lbs or something like that.



Around that time PD Sabres were placarded at 1 pound per square foot, and even at elevation worked great through 1.3-1.4. PD Stilettos were marked for 1.3, and even at elevation worked great through 1.6-1.7.

Applying the same logic to Micro Ravens wasn't without precedent.

All three weighed more than 175 naked. Plus the rig and the clothing will put them around 200 lbs out the door.

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I'm just saying that all the riggers out there should inform these idiots who wants to load Micro Raven more than 1.2 wingload. If they see a fat ass, not so athletic 40 year old bellyflier that jumps Micro, they should tell the jumpers what's up.



Sure, although those micro-ravens are older than some of the riggers packing them and they might not know the history.

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I had a similar experience with a 220 square foot National 7-cell. It stalled with the toggles between belt and hip level, so that did not stick in memory, but the weak flare did stick in memory. I was mighty glad when I stalled into the pea gravel bowl.

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My friend with the 145 National Phantom had a ride on it yesterday. He remembered my warning and did practice flares up high. He thought he had it figured out. But he did stall it about 3 feet off the ground. He said it was very sudden and unexpected. He walked away unhurt, and is looking for a cheap Tempo 150 or PDR143 to replace it.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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gowlerk

My friend with the 145 National Phantom had a ride on it yesterday. He remembered my warning and did practice flares up high. He thought he had it figured out. But he did stall it about 3 feet off the ground. He said it was very sudden and unexpected. He walked away unhurt, and is looking for a cheap Tempo 150 or PDR143 to replace it.



....................................................................................

So now he is looking for a " cheap brand abc reserve?"
Why is he using the words "cheap" and " reserve" in the same sentence?
Has he ever compared the cost of an ambulance ride with the cost of a reserve canopy ???????????

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stayhigh

For fuck sake, none of those three that broke themselves bothered to even do a single practice flair. That is another problem. Zero ride on these reserve, zero practice flair. If all three has done a single practice flair, they would've avoided ambulance ride.



My first reserve ride was on a Raven-M 135 @1.2 (I'm heavier now, this was years ago.) I did a couple practice flares and pretty well had the hang of it but still stalled it just after leveling out and had to PLF/roll. It's been sitting in a bin in my closet since then.

Not too long after that a friend of mine was landing her MicroRaven 135 (somewhere in the 1.0-1.1 range I'd guess) and was holding one of the toggles about a foot offset on final to keep it flying straight (she landed about 30 yards from me.) She also stalled and fell down on landing but was uninjured. That one is in a bin too.

The canopies can be landed without injury but that doesn't make jumping them a good idea given modern options available.

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pchapman

***My friend with the 145 National Phantom had a ride on it yesterday.



Well he didn't have to do it just to satisfy our curiosity! ;)
Interesting results though. Good that he's ok.

He doesn't even know about this thread. His last previous reserve ride was in the '90s, under a round. He says the round landed better.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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gowlerk

******My friend with the 145 National Phantom had a ride on it yesterday.



Well he didn't have to do it just to satisfy our curiosity! ;)
Interesting results though. Good that he's ok.

He doesn't even know about this thread. His last previous reserve ride was in the '90s, under a round. He says the round landed better.

............................................................................................

I reached the same conclusion after one ride on my S.O.S. (Parachutes de France, 1985-vintage, 190 square foot, 5-cell). Even my Strato-Star (Delta II, Paradactyl, Unit, DC-5, kit parachutes, etc) flew better than that S.O.S.

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