Intentional Cutaway Desired - Raven Micro 150 Concerns

[mdrejhon 8]

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When loaded according to manufacturer's specs, the Super Raven series make good reserves. They were not designed to be loaded higher.

Good point -- I mean, specifically when loaded at my levels (1.25 wingloading). That's what makes me uncomfortable - my reserve wasn't designed to fly at these wingloadings.

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Have you jumped any F111 7 cells? Or even a zp 7 cell? You may be surprised at how different they are from your Sabre.

No, but that's a big reason why I want to test jump so I can be sufficiently familiar with landing my reserve safely. I have only flown F111 9-cell (Manta 288). However, I have flown well-worn F111 student canopies with weak flares, and also flown various sizes 288 F111, 230 ZP, 190 ZP, and 170 ZP, old brakes and new brakes, well-jumped 170 and lightly used 170, and they have all flown very differently and know that I need to do a bunch of test flares up high (check tail deflection, check stall point, slow flare, medium speed flare, fast flare, etc). I feel this has now prepared me sufficiently for testing the PD143R -- I know my exciting landing experiences when my brakes got replaced and got 7 inches of loose brake lines to screw up my flaring for about 10 jumps (a few exciting unsteady flares, mostly standups, some slides, just not the nice turf-surf I was used to) before I finally figured out to inspect tail deflection, and that fixed my flaring ability when I made sure to pre-position my hands seven inches further down, to the tail deflection point, not all the way up to the loops. When I make a preplanned test jump of any new canopy, I will be doing a minimum pull altitude of 5000 feet and will make sure that my spot is good before I exit the door.

I feel comfortable trying the PD143R or other very good reserve (Smart 150) in a well preplanned test jump -- best thing short of the optimal solution of replacing my entire container. (Unless somebody at my dropzone has pointed out some good reasons).

But a good point - I may test a PD160R or larger reserve for a couple jumps (if I can get those to fit in the main D-bag) - depending on how uncurrent I am after the winter - how my landings are on the main after winter.

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You are planning to do this wearing a tertiary reserve, right?

Yep. That's a requirement under pretty much any parachuting assocication rules (CSPA, USPA).
(Assuming I do an intentional cutaway instead of demo jump as main)

[mdrejhon 8]

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Here you go, how about this, demo the PD160R as a main for a few jumps. Get used to the 7 cell F111 flare, then demo the 143. If it feels good, buy one.

You beat me to this suggestion (I just made that suggestion to myself in my last post)

Everyone is right that test jumping a PD Reserve demo is a lot simpler progression -- demoing the reserve as a main, before demoing it via an intentional cutaway (if I ever need to do one for a specific license). One step at a time, that is -- the instruction I've been taught, agrees with this methodolgy.

It bears worth noting that I didn't have all the proper information on the Raven Micro 150 at the time I purchased my gear. (I take the blame.)

[vt1977 0]

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I realize the 143R is a fair bit smaller -- Although it should fly like a 155 sq feet because of the way PD is conservative. My 75 jumps on a Sabre 170 makes me feel ready to downsize to a 150

Just a point to throw in here... I seem to remember from somewhere (I owned 2 Sabres a few years ago so maybe that's why it sticks in my mind?) that Sabres are also "really" a bit bigger than it says on the label.

Therefore if you're using the fact that the PD143R is "really" a 155 to make you feel happier about the size of it, you might want to double check that your Sabre 170 "really" is a 170.

Vicki

[Danger 0]

Is you reserve a DashM series 150 or Mirco Raven 150?

[moonglo 0]

I have 3 rides on a Raven-M loaded at 1.1-1.2. 1st and 3rd were nice stand up landings, the 2nd was a light wind day and it bowtied as I flared, my feet about 4' off the ground. My head hit the same time as my heels! (thanks luminous for my oxygn, I could have been much worse than dazed) My rigger lengthened the lower break lines about 6" after this so that when my adrenaline is pumping it'll be harder to flare too far. From what I've seen of others flying similar Raven-M's I'd suggest you prepare to plf and practice your flare if altitude allows until you get a chance to land yours and see how it behaves. From what I've seen of Micro Ravens (note: I've only flown the -M) they are not quite as prone to stall. Ideally if you can afford it, replacement with a PDR or Smart etc. may be the best option.

[thepollster 0]

Another vote for the PD143R here.

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I realize the 143R is a fair bit smaller -- Although it should fly like a 155 sq feet because of the way PD is conservative.

AFAIK, PD measures all their canopies the same way, so if you want to say a 143 is a 155, you need to say a Sabre 170 is a 185ish. Apples to apples, and all that.

[mdrejhon 8]

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Is you reserve a DashM series 150 or Mirco Raven 150?

Micro Raven. But the forum software wouldn't let me select that, so I had to choose something.

But hey, I just figured out how to manually edit it via the "Other" option. Fixed. Now my profile says Raven Micro.

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AFAIK, PD measures all their canopies the same way, so if you want to say a 143 is a 155, you need to say a Sabre 170 is a 185ish. Apples to apples, and all that.

Good point -- it's the same manufacturer, after all -- although I'm not sure how PD measures their older Sabre's.

[vt1977 0]

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Good point -- it's the same manufacturer, after all -- although I'm not sure how PD measures their older Sabre's.

I have a very vague memory of being told that my old Sabre 135 was "really" a 143.

Vicki

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

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Good point -- I mean, specifically when loaded at my levels (1.25 wingloading). That's what makes me uncomfortable - my reserve wasn't designed to fly at these wingloadings.

I feel comfortable trying the PD143R or other very good reserve (Smart 150) in a well preplanned test jump -- best thing short of the optimal solution of replacing my entire container. (Unless somebody at my dropzone has pointed out some good reasons).

I feel comfortable trying the PD143R or other very good reserve (Smart 150) in a well preplanned test jump -- best thing short of the optimal solution of replacing my entire container. (Unless somebody at my dropzone has pointed out some good reasons).

I don't want to discount any of the people who you have spoken to about the performance of various reserves... however, I feel your information may be skewed a bit.

Yes, the micro-raven is older than the PD airfoil, and designed to be flown a lower W/L. Yes, the micro-raven is known for having a short flare range with a sudden stall. However, any problems with the raven I have ever heard of were VERY small reserves (120 range) and much more highly loaded then 1.25. My one and only experience on a micro-raven 150 loaded about 1.15 was perfect. I'd also note that before the PD reserve took over, the Raven/Micro-raven was one of, if not the most popular reserves out there. Many, many, many people have used them and they worked very well. The experienced jumpers at my DZ 5-10 years ago (I've been around longer then my profile suggests) flew ravens almost exclusively, and most were 150's... that is not exaggertion.

As for PD, well, it's PD... 'nuff said. It's the best reserve out there today.

As for the Smart... from what I understand (so say the riggers I have spoken to, so if someone else knows better, say so and I'll shut up), the airfoil is a carbon-copy of the Tempo reserve made by PISA, which Aerodyne bought. If true, I'd rather jump a micro-raven any day over a Smart... the tempo was known for landing like a brick, and of course the smaller the canopy the bigger the brick. Again, I could be wrong, but I'd research the Smart a little more... just because it's new doesn't make it "very good."

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[justinb138 0]

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As for the Smart... from what I understand (so say the riggers I have spoken to, so if someone else knows better, say so and I'll shut up), the airfoil is a carbon-copy of the Tempo reserve made by PISA, which Aerodyne bought.

It's not a copy of the tempo (there have been many threads about this very subject on here). I recall someone from Aerodyne saying that was a completely new design.

[BillyVance 34]

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As for the Smart... from what I understand (so say the riggers I have spoken to, so if someone else knows better, say so and I'll shut up), the airfoil is a carbon-copy of the Tempo reserve made by PISA, which Aerodyne bought.

It's not a copy of the tempo (there have been many threads about this very subject on here). I recall someone from Aerodyne saying that was a completely new design.

If I remember right, the Smart replaced the Tempo as Aerodyne's reserve of choice?

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[mdrejhon 8]

There are people who just say "Don't worry, the Raven Micro will save your life, and besides you may never use it!". And that it's possible to land a Raven 150 at wingload 1.25 standing up, if I flare carefully. I'm overreacting.

But, other people legitimately suggest gear fear may cause me to do stupid things instead of going to reserve. Worse of all, people have been injured under a Raven Micro before. Get the safest reserve my container will fit. Then I'm not overreacting, it's my life after all.

Gear fear may cause people to do stupid things such as keep fixing severe spinning linetwists down to a dangerously low altitude, for example, or trying to use a hook knife on a lineover below harddeck. Maybe only minor, but may cause someone to hesistate long enough to work on a problem for 500 feet more, well into dangerously into low-cutaway territory where people have been killed.

I hope I avoid any hesistation - but I never know in a panicky brain-overload situation (never had a cutaway before, and no, I don't believe in jinxes) - better safe than sorry. So I feel that I got to make a test jump eventually -- even if it has to be my existing Raven Micro 150 (ulp...I've heard 150's sometimes suddenly bowtie-stall on landing at wingloading 1.3 and I'm dangerously close to that) or a PD143R/PD160R (no problem... I feel comfortable and ready to try a well preplanned jump on these). I'm definitely leaning towards the latter.

[BillyVance 34]

It's great to see relative newbies like yourself thoroughly research the issues to try and find the best reserve.
As for test jumping reserves, yeah the only way I'd do it is by tertiary systems. Sometime last year we had a deaf guy down in Texas do an intentional cutaway after being told not to, but did anyway. Got suspended by the S&TA for a week. He bragged about it on here and got flamed big time, so he disappeared. That guy had a serious attitude problem. It was a real shame though, he had great talent and the potential to be a great skydiver, even with only 100 jumps.

Now back to the Micro Ravens, one of my friends was jumping at Zhills earlier this year or late last year, and had a reserve ride on his Micro Raven. It stalled at the flare point and he went down hard on one side. Fractured his lower arm pretty badly that the bones were sticking through his jumpsuit.

Personally, I think you'd do better with either a PD or Smart reserve... My reserve is a Tempo 120, but I have been thinking about swapping it out with a Smart...

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[dragon2 0]

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I'm really confused about where an intentional cutaway comes into play here... why not demo the reserve as your main?

Ever looked at your reserve? In almost all cases, there is no attachment point for your pilotchute. You'd have to static-line it if you want to jump it as a main.

Now some manufacturers (PD, Aerodyne) have demo reserves set up as mains, but you can't jump your OWN reserve as a main.

I did 2 intentional cutaways (one with a very good reason, to check out THAT particular reserve as it gave me trouble before), and they can't be done lightly. 3 canopies of which you can only chop 1 (as in the setup I jumped) is potential trouble. But I don't regret doing them and I'd do it again too.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[piisfish 135]

I have PD-R 143 (loaded 1.4) and a Techno 115 (loaded 1.7)

Guess which one I wanted to try first and guess which one I finally got to jump first

Tiptoed it with no wind at 10ft from the freebag.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[BETO74 0]

I did not read your entire post but I have a Micro Raven as reserve also loaded some what 1.25 had to cut aways, needless to say that canopy has save my life twice, two nice canopy rides and stood up landings, I tried altitude permiting to stall the canopy flare all the way and I could not do it, this is my second rig in my other rig (I don't like to call it second) I have a PDR113.

http://web.mac.com/ac057a/iWeb/AC057A/H0M3.html

[skybytch 259]

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but you can't jump your OWN reserve as a main.

Actually, on an original Super Raven, you CAN jump your own reserve as a main. Not only does it have a main bridle attachment point, the manufacturer has in the past stated that it's okay to put a test jump on the canopy as a main and still use it as a reserve.

[davelepka 4]

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As for test jumping reserves, yeah the only way I'd do it is by tertiary systems.

How about hooking it up as a main? You avoid possible loss of your main, or freebag, and you don't have to monkey around with a belly wart.

[dragon2 0]

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but you can't jump your OWN reserve as a main.

Actually, on an original Super Raven, you CAN jump your own reserve as a main. Not only does it have a main bridle attachment point, the manufacturer has in the past stated that it's okay to put a test jump on the canopy as a main and still use it as a reserve.

Do the microraves have an attachment point as well? I knew about the super ravens, that's why i said, almost all cases. Might be nice though, if more manufacturers did this, or there were more demo reserves available...

We had a Predator 150 reserve lying around, unfortunately even though that canopy has been sold as a main as well, no bridle atachment point. So it got scrapped... Don't want to sell anyone a 9 cell reserve

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[skybytch 259]

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Do the microraves have an attachment point as well? I knew about the super ravens, that's why i said, almost all cases.

Yes. A Micro Raven is a Super Raven. When they first came out, 150 sq ft was considered to be small...

[mdrejhon 8]

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As for test jumping reserves, yeah the only way I'd do it is by tertiary systems.

You mean only for an intentional cutaway...

This was the original idea, but I am now leaning towareds a demo jump of a reserve as a main - and I am sure that was what my dropzone would recommend when the time comes for me to ask for a test jump of a reserve. It was my understanding that if the reserve has a main bridle attachment point (PD Demo Reserves), I can test jump it as a main parachute. And I would be able to cutaway it normally. Thus, no tertiary needed -- I continue using my existing reserve as the reserve. Please correct me if I am wrong.

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Now back to the Micro Ravens, one of my friends was jumping at Zhills earlier this year or late last year, and had a reserve ride on his Micro Raven. It stalled at the flare point and he went down hard on one side. Fractured his lower arm pretty badly that the bones were sticking through his jumpsuit

This just backs up my concern. There are reports that landing a Micro Raven safely is possible, but that there are actual reports by people I know in person (including you, not just you that I met in Lake Wales - you being one of the organizers of Deaf World Record) who mention a friend or somebody having a horror story with a Raven Micro. This goes well beyond "online forum horror stories". It sounds like I may be rolling my dice with a Raven Micro -- even if I am now pre-informed with important information about its narrow flare band at higher wingloadings. I realize it will likely save my life anyway, but it may not keep me injury free in situations where a PD Reserve would.

[BillyVance 34]

You are absolutely right to be concerned. If the Raven can be jumped as a main, go for it.

However, never forget how to do a good PLF. That will save your bones more than you think...

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[billvon 2,396]

>However, any problems with the raven I have ever heard of were
> VERY small reserves (120 range) and much more highly loaded then
> 1.25.

I watched a guy really hammer in under a MR150 loaded about 1.2 to 1. The Raven is a canopy that CAN be landed safely if you know what you're doing; the problem is that it flies so unlike most other canopies (i.e. very narrow flare range, can't fully flare it, can't load it dynamically much during landing) that people often hurt themselves with it. For most skydivers, that's one of the advantages of a reserve like the PD or the Smart - they flare a lot more like modern parachutes. The PD in particular flares like a Triathalon, which most people can land without problems.

[dharma1976 0]

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As for test jumping reserves, yeah the only way I'd do it is by tertiary systems.

You mean only for an intentional cutaway...

This was the original idea, but I am now leaning towareds a demo jump of a reserve as a main - and I am sure that was what my dropzone would recommend when the time comes for me to ask for a test jump of a reserve. It was my understanding that if the reserve has a main bridle attachment point (PD Demo Reserves), I can test jump it as a main parachute. And I would be able to cutaway it normally. Thus, no tertiary needed -- I continue using my existing reserve as the reserve. Please correct me if I am wrong.

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Now back to the Micro Ravens, one of my friends was jumping at Zhills earlier this year or late last year, and had a reserve ride on his Micro Raven. It stalled at the flare point and he went down hard on one side. Fractured his lower arm pretty badly that the bones were sticking through his jumpsuit

This just backs up my concern. There are reports that landing a Micro Raven safely is possible, but that there are actual reports by people I know in person (including you, not just you that I met in Lake Wales - you being one of the organizers of Deaf World Record) who mention a friend or somebody having a horror story with a Raven Micro. This goes well beyond "online forum horror stories". It sounds like I may be rolling my dice with a Raven Micro -- even if I am now pre-informed with important information about its narrow flare band at higher wingloadings. I realize it will likely save my life anyway, but it may not keep me injury free in situations where a PD Reserve would.

plus why woudl you get rid of a perfectly good main for something that is only sort of guarenteed to open ;)

cheers

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[riggerrob 558]

... backing up Skybitch ...

An intentional cutaway would be doing it the hard way.
(Until Raven Dash M) all Ravens had bridle attachments sewn on.
Precision Aerodynamics even recommends making one or two jumps on a new Raven to familiarize yourself with the flare characteristics.

Far safer to attach your Raven to a set of main risers, bridle, d-bag, etc. and stuff it in a main container for one or two familiarization jumps.