Automotive Bridge Loan Passes the House

[Coreece 190]

*enters stage* ACT II

Here....from the mouths of your beloved foreign companies who know how to run a business...perhaps you'll please listen to them....

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081213/AUTO01/812130355/&imw=Y

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As the industry's outlook has deteriorated in recent months, executives at foreign car companies have said they want to see Detroit's cash-strapped automakers get through the crisis, noting that they all share the same network of suppliers.

"We're joined at the hip with our Detroit brethren in manufacturing," said Irv Miller, group vice president and chief spokesman at Toyota Motor Corp.'s U.S. sales subsidiary. Whatever the U.S. government proposes to keep the U.S. automakers afloat, "we support it," Miller said.

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In the past few weeks, as senators from states with foreign transplants have grown more strident in their criticism of Detroit's top managers and the United Auto Workers union, executives from Japanese and German companies have tried to distance themselves from those sentiments.

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Jeffrey Smith, assistant vice president for corporate affairs at American Honda, told reporters, "Honda supports measures that would maintain the short- and long-term viability and stability of the auto industry."

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Executives at the Japanese manufacturers have been surprised to hear lawmakers assert that their workers earn far less than workers employed by Detroit's automakers. One executive who spoke on condition of anonymity confirmed UAW President Ron Gettelfinger's remarks Friday that team members, or line workers, at Toyota's largest North American assembly plant in Georgetown, Ky., earned more than the average UAW worker.

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In recent months, foreign automakers and parts suppliers have tried to work out contingency plans in the event of a collapse of one of Detroit's Big Three. But executives say they would not be able to shield themselves from the impact of an automaker's collapse because the number of distressed suppliers in North America already is in the hundreds.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[kallend 1,679]

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Oh, I agree that bad management decisions were made - labor negotiations among them. Some situations are not fixable, however. When you have a multi-billion dollar recurring liability that your competitor does not have (job bank) then you simply cannot compete effectively. When you cannot hope to achieve a profit margin on par with your competitors because your costs of labor are too exorbitant with no realistic recourse to correct that imbalance, then you cannot hope to be competitive over the long haul.

Not facing the fact that unions did not have a negative impact on the management of these corporations is not facing reality.

Not facing the fact that things got this way in the first place on account of bad management decisions is not facing reality.

the fact is bending to the unions is the largest part of the problem, but then again what choice did they have? give in to the unions or have them strike and go bankrupt? kinda puts the management in a shitty spot doesn't it?

Neither God nor Darwin put the unions in the position to force management to make bad decisions or avoid hard decisions. Management did it to themselves and their stockholders.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[TheAnvil 0]

Another dodge! You must REALLY like those unions to avoid facts as you are.

When WILL you face reality?

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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*enters stage* ACT II

Here....from the mouths of your beloved foreign companies who know how to run a business...perhaps you'll please listen to them....

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081213/AUTO01/812130355/&imw=Y

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As the industry's outlook has deteriorated in recent months, executives at foreign car companies have said they want to see Detroit's cash-strapped automakers get through the crisis, noting that they all share the same network of suppliers.

"We're joined at the hip with our Detroit brethren in manufacturing," said Irv Miller, group vice president and chief spokesman at Toyota Motor Corp.'s U.S. sales subsidiary. Whatever the U.S. government proposes to keep the U.S. automakers afloat, "we support it," Miller said.

So maybe we should let GM fail and bail out the parts suppliers. After all, they have a viable strategy (supply the other manufacturers) if they survive

[DanG 1]

Yeah, you're right. The 2006 Subaru Forester is a piece of crap. Those Japanese car makers are so good at marketing that they even fooled Car and Driver and Consumer Reports (both picked it the best small SUV on the market).

Again, if the US built a small SUV that was nearly as good as the Subaru, I'd buy it. They don't. They probably never will. I won't buy American just to help union workers on an assembly line make as much as doctors.

- Dan G

[kallend 1,679]

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Another dodge! You must REALLY like those unions to avoid facts as you are.

When WILL you face reality?

Just because you repeat a stupid statement over and over doesn't make it true, Vinny, although with enough tequila it might seem that way.

M-A-N-A-G-E-M-E-N-T: those charged with managing the affairs of the organization.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,679]

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Yeah, you're right. The 2006 Subaru Forester is a piece of crap. Those Japanese car makers are so good at marketing that they even fooled Car and Driver and Consumer Reports (both picked it the best small SUV on the market).

Again, if the US built a small SUV that was nearly as good as the Subaru, I'd buy it. They don't. They probably never will. I won't buy American just to help union workers on an assembly line make as much as doctors.

A colleague of mine has a Subaru Forester. It's a piece of crap.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mnealtx 0]

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Another dodge! You must REALLY like those unions to avoid facts as you are.

When WILL you face reality?

Just because you repeat a stupid statement over and over doesn't make it true, Vinny, although with enough tequila it might seem that way.

M-A-N-A-G-E-M-E-N-T: those charged with managing the affairs of the organization.

Then, since the gov't is the 'manager' of the ATC, you have no problems with Reagan disbanding the ATC union, correct?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kallend 1,679]

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Another dodge! You must REALLY like those unions to avoid facts as you are.

When WILL you face reality?

Just because you repeat a stupid statement over and over doesn't make it true, Vinny, although with enough tequila it might seem that way.

M-A-N-A-G-E-M-E-N-T: those charged with managing the affairs of the organization.

Then, since the gov't is the 'manager' of the ATC, you have no problems with Reagan disbanding the ATC union, correct?

I had no trouble with his refusing to deal with them. That's management's option. Besides, Air Force 1 still got service and private planes still flew. It was the average traveler who took the inconvenience. Typical Republican thinking.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[TheAnvil 0]

Yep! Management suuuuure is responsible for managing the workforce and the company.

And unions are responsible for driving up labor costs to the point where the company is harmed. They make it difficult - in some cases impossible, as with Eastern and the Detroit 3 - to manage a workforce effectively which in turn reduces the ability of a company to compete well in a competitive market.

Fact. Deal with it however you so desire.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[TheAnvil 0]

And you had no problem with the ATC'ers violating their no-strike oath, eh?

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[kallend 1,679]

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Maybe we should have done a lot more to prevent the loss of our core competencies to the Asians.

How do you suggest we do this? Making an inferior product in order to remain competitive price wise because our labor costs are too high isn't helping this fact.

If you believe J.D Power ratings, you pretty much get the quality you pay for regardless of where the vehicle comes from.

And if you want anecdotes, the two worst cars I ever owned were a 1982 Chevy Cavalier (rust, rust and more rust) and a 1990 Toyota Camry (rust, rust and multiple electrical system failures, water pump failure). The Camry was the only car I've owned in over 40 years that ever had to be towed home due to breakdown on the highway.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[diverborg 0]

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If you believe J.D Power ratings, you pretty much get the quality you pay for regardless of where the vehicle comes from.

And if you want anecdotes, the two worst cars I ever owned were a 1982 Chevy Cavalier (rust, rust and more rust) and a 1990 Toyota Camry (rust, rust and multiple electrical system failures, water pump failure). The Camry was the only car I've owned in over 40 years that ever had to be towed home due to breakdown on the highway.

I actually think GM made a lot better products in the 80's and 90's than they do now, not figuring in rusting factor. My dad had a 1985 Buick skylark that he did nothing more than his scheduled servicing and I think a fuel pump and got over 400,000 out of it. I still drive a 1994 chevy s-10 with 140,000 miles on it I bought 5 years ago. It got terrible consumer report ratings, but its been the best truck I've ever owned and it just never has a problem. However, in the last few years while trying to find a vehicle for my wife, we went with the Honda Fit. We did a neon (megacrap) prior. The Fit is a sweet little vehicle for the money and nothing the big 3 make can come close to it in its class. I've test driven a lot of different cars in the last year and there is a definite difference in build quality, handling, ergonomics and performance lately. My parents are on there 3rd transmission on their 04 Silverado and they don't even tow. A coworker of mine has an 08 Silverado that's on its second transmission. No excuse for that IMO.
I also think the imports have come a long ways since 1990 as well. Go test drive a brand new chevy aveo, neon, or focus. Then compare it to the test drive on a yaris, fit, accent, or versa. There's just no comparison. How long these cars last, I guess will see. But since 2000 these manufacturers vehicles have been going a long ways.

[loumeinhart 0]

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Other companies picked up the workers. New companies were started. People retrained to move into other growing industries. Some went out and started businesses of their own. The country will adapt and move on

Thank you.

[Gawain 0]

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Actually, no it doesn't. I've been laid off before and suffered through it. I have an older brother that was laid off seven times in ten years. Dad was laid off too after 25 years at Xerox. We all got through it and those others will too.

If you're working for the Big 3 better start retraining. Hope you funded your IRA and your Roth as well instead of counting on a pension- it won't be there.

Well, you have no profile, Mr. Anonymous, but I strongly suspect you have never seen anything in your lifetime that will compare with the economic impact on the US economy of the Big 3 going under. It's not like the economy is in great shape right now.

Why prolong the inevitable at the current rate? First: not all three will go under. Ford will survive, and GM has so many brands that the brands (some of them) will also survive. The only component of Chrysler I'm not too worried about is Jeep.

Bottom line is this: if you're a supplier, and your sole client is GM or Chrysler, you're running a bad business model too, and yes, you're in trouble (AC Delco and Delphi have been Chp 11 before, they're still around).

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[headoverheels 292]

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if you have an employment problem and drive a foriegn car, you deserve it.

I hope you didn't buy any foreign made TV's, stereos, etc. in the 70's or 80's. If so, you deserve any unemployment that comes your way.

[Coreece 190]

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Why prolong the inevitable at the current rate?

The Prarie Dog gave me a vision......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8egoLMH2jxs&feature=related

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[tonyhays 86]

Melodramatic, much????

The various airlines that filed for bankruptcy didn't cause the economy to collapse. For some reason i doubt that a couple of the Big 3 going under will do the same thing.

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”

[Coreece 190]

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Melodramatic, much????

I'm just tryin to turn a lemon into lemonade I guess....youtube that is. Glad you like it.

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The various airlines that filed for bankruptcy didn't cause the economy to collapse. For some reason i doubt that a couple of the Big 3 going under will do the same thing.

Yes, I have heard the arguments and it appears that neither side seems to be able to trust each other in their predictions of the future, which usually tends to be the case.

I don't think its wise to risk the compounded consequences of the failure to bail them out in this relatively vulnerable time in our country and around the world based on aguments that disregard the obvious differences between the purchase of an airline ticket and buying a car. I also find difficulty in justifying questions like...."Why prolong the inevitable at the current rate?" when there have cleary been concessions and whatever current rate you choose to believe will become more viable in the short term.

I believe they can and will survive; they've made it 100 years, I have no problem with supporting them in their desire to do 100 more......(yikes...I can just feel you guys cringe.)

It also doesn't seem to be wise to allow the loss of all these jobs at such a rapid rate when we're trying to stop the bleeding as it is.....especially when the check has already been written...we're paying for this regardless.

-edited to create a more pleasant tone. ...and my typical gramatical & shpelling erros...if I recognize them.

Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

[marks2065 0]

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Oh, I agree that bad management decisions were made - labor negotiations among them. Some situations are not fixable, however. When you have a multi-billion dollar recurring liability that your competitor does not have (job bank) then you simply cannot compete effectively. When you cannot hope to achieve a profit margin on par with your competitors because your costs of labor are too exorbitant with no realistic recourse to correct that imbalance, then you cannot hope to be competitive over the long haul.

Not facing the fact that unions did not have a negative impact on the management of these corporations is not facing reality.

Not facing the fact that things got this way in the first place on account of bad management decisions is not facing reality.

the fact is bending to the unions is the largest part of the problem, but then again what choice did they have? give in to the unions or have them strike and go bankrupt? kinda puts the management in a shitty spot doesn't it?

Neither God nor Darwin put the unions in the position to force management to make bad decisions or avoid hard decisions. Management did it to themselves and their stockholders.

I guess you weren't around when the auto dealers went on strike about 10 years ago. when my freinds almost lost their houses and 1 couple got divorced over the financial situation they were put in over the strike, they did come out ahead eventually but it was at great financial burden during the strike. now you are paying for that strike by seeing $100 - $150 and rates at the dealers to get your car fixed. Now the mechanics get paid min $1200 a month even when they stand around and do nothing. you can't fire a bad employee without a hassle, you have to lay off the good employees to get to a bad employee that has senority. yep unions make alot of sense now dont't they!

[kallend 1,679]

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Oh, I agree that bad management decisions were made - labor negotiations among them. Some situations are not fixable, however. When you have a multi-billion dollar recurring liability that your competitor does not have (job bank) then you simply cannot compete effectively. When you cannot hope to achieve a profit margin on par with your competitors because your costs of labor are too exorbitant with no realistic recourse to correct that imbalance, then you cannot hope to be competitive over the long haul.

Not facing the fact that unions did not have a negative impact on the management of these corporations is not facing reality.

Not facing the fact that things got this way in the first place on account of bad management decisions is not facing reality.

the fact is bending to the unions is the largest part of the problem, but then again what choice did they have? give in to the unions or have them strike and go bankrupt? kinda puts the management in a shitty spot doesn't it?

Neither God nor Darwin put the unions in the position to force management to make bad decisions or avoid hard decisions. Management did it to themselves and their stockholders.

I guess you weren't around when the auto dealers went on strike about 10 years ago. when my freinds almost lost their houses and 1 couple got divorced over the financial situation they were put in over the strike, they did come out ahead eventually but it was at great financial burden during the strike. now you are paying for that strike by seeing $100 - $150 and rates at the dealers to get your car fixed. Now the mechanics get paid min $1200 a month even when they stand around and do nothing. you can't fire a bad employee without a hassle, you have to lay off the good employees to get to a bad employee that has senority. yep unions make alot of sense now dont't they!

You are in the wrong argument. This is about WHO is responsible for managing a corporation, NOT about whether unions always make smart decisions.

And you might ask the question, HOW did unions come to have so much influence, and what role bad management had it it. A little history goes a long way in understanding why things are the way they are.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[marks2065 0]

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Oh, I agree that bad management decisions were made - labor negotiations among them. Some situations are not fixable, however. When you have a multi-billion dollar recurring liability that your competitor does not have (job bank) then you simply cannot compete effectively. When you cannot hope to achieve a profit margin on par with your competitors because your costs of labor are too exorbitant with no realistic recourse to correct that imbalance, then you cannot hope to be competitive over the long haul.

Not facing the fact that unions did not have a negative impact on the management of these corporations is not facing reality.

Not facing the fact that things got this way in the first place on account of bad management decisions is not facing reality.

the fact is bending to the unions is the largest part of the problem, but then again what choice did they have? give in to the unions or have them strike and go bankrupt? kinda puts the management in a shitty spot doesn't it?

Neither God nor Darwin put the unions in the position to force management to make bad decisions or avoid hard decisions. Management did it to themselves and their stockholders.

I guess you weren't around when the auto dealers went on strike about 10 years ago. when my freinds almost lost their houses and 1 couple got divorced over the financial situation they were put in over the strike, they did come out ahead eventually but it was at great financial burden during the strike. now you are paying for that strike by seeing $100 - $150 and rates at the dealers to get your car fixed. Now the mechanics get paid min $1200 a month even when they stand around and do nothing. you can't fire a bad employee without a hassle, you have to lay off the good employees to get to a bad employee that has senority. yep unions make alot of sense now dont't they!

You are in the wrong argument. This is about WHO is responsible for managing a corporation, NOT about whether unions always make smart decisions.

And you might ask the question, HOW did unions come to have so much influence, and what role bad management had it it. A little history goes a long way in understanding why things are the way they are.

Unions played a good role years ago when management was really bad, but now they abuse their roles. when the company has to compete with non union companies or foriegn companies without unions they put people in bad situations that could harm the company no matter what choices they make.

The unions, in their currant situation, are hurting companies and causing them to not be able to compete. they may get short term gains for the employees but long term they will cause the company to go bankrupt or move, leaving the employees jobless.

[TheAnvil 0]

Keep trying all you like, but I doubt you'll get it through to John. He loves those unions, you see, and has long since forgotten that corporations exist not to provide jobs but to produce a profit.

Saying anything bad about unions is a strict no-no for leftists, because of the massive amounts of funding unions provide them - in many cases against the wishes of union rank & file.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[marks2065 0]

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Keep trying all you like, but I doubt you'll get it through to John. He loves those unions, you see, and has long since forgotten that corporations exist not to provide jobs but to produce a profit.

Saying anything bad about unions is a strict no-no for leftists, because of the massive amounts of funding unions provide them - in many cases against the wishes of union rank & file.

I personally try to work with nonunion people. Labor is cheaper, less breaks, more efficiencey per hour worked. (don't see non union employees sitting around waiting for the next union emloyee to do his job)

[billvon 2,473]

>I have no problem with supporting them in their desire to do 100 more....

How much more are you willing to pay in taxes to ensure that that happens? Another $50 a year? $100? $1000? As things stand now, it will cost you about $133 to bail out the car companies assuming they get the money and are slow in repaying it.