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TheAnvil 0
I don't buy into the inane theory that the bankruptcy of one or any of these companies would be a backbreaking blow to the U.S. economy. Not by a long shot. Doesn't hold any water - not even an ounce.
Chapter 11 has been good enough for better run companies than these three. It's good enough for them. Putting $$ into these companies has ZERO ROI for the taxpayer and in today's budgetary environs that is even more unacceptable than normal - and it's ALWAYS unacceptable.
Chapter 11 has been good enough for better run companies than these three. It's good enough for them. Putting $$ into these companies has ZERO ROI for the taxpayer and in today's budgetary environs that is even more unacceptable than normal - and it's ALWAYS unacceptable.
Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!
mfnren 0
OBEY...must OBEY FOX news...yeesss FOX news I will do your bidding, oh great one...
billvon 2,435
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>I don't buy into the inane theory that the bankruptcy of one or any of
>these companies would be a backbreaking blow to the U.S. economy. Not
>by a long shot. Doesn't hold any water - not even an ounce.
Sorry to hear that, because it holds a lot more than an ounce. Having several of the biggest employers in the US go under bankruptcy protection will result in:
-loss of jobs
-bankruptcy of their suppliers, as their source of income is throttled by the courts
-increase in cost of vehicles and subsequent reduction in sales
That being said, it may well be best to allow the market to adjust by allowing GM et al to fail. This both 'prunes' an unprofitable company and allows new, more efficient companies to take their place. But claiming there will be no noticeable adjustment is not really a tenable position.
>these companies would be a backbreaking blow to the U.S. economy. Not
>by a long shot. Doesn't hold any water - not even an ounce.
Sorry to hear that, because it holds a lot more than an ounce. Having several of the biggest employers in the US go under bankruptcy protection will result in:
-loss of jobs
-bankruptcy of their suppliers, as their source of income is throttled by the courts
-increase in cost of vehicles and subsequent reduction in sales
That being said, it may well be best to allow the market to adjust by allowing GM et al to fail. This both 'prunes' an unprofitable company and allows new, more efficient companies to take their place. But claiming there will be no noticeable adjustment is not really a tenable position.
tonyhays 86
Here is a question for you, oh wise one...if bankruptcy is good enough for the airlines, why not for the auto industry???
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
TheAnvil 0
I think you should re-examine that. Your assumption that automotive manufacturers are such a large part of the economy really isn't tenable to me. Autos are one of many consumer items sold in the US and there is no way in hell that having all of these companies go into Chapter 11 would break the US economy. Affect it? Yes. Break it irreparably? No way.
The airlines are also extremely large organizations with a vast network of support contractors. They went through Chapter 11 and the economy survived just fine.
Loss of jobs would most definitely result. Would that kill the economy? I doubt it.
The support contractors and suppliers, as with every single company that declares bankruptcy, would be affected. A death blow to the economy? It wasn't when the airlines went under.
As for increased cost of vehicles? There are other brands from different companies out there competing. Competition will keep prices down. A slight increase, perhaps, but not much with regards to that one commodity - automobiles.
Without going through the painful process of allowing unprofitable corporations to restructure under bankruptcy protection or go the way of the dodo, they will be on constant life support - from the taxpayer. I find that revolting in all regards.
[barf]
The airlines are also extremely large organizations with a vast network of support contractors. They went through Chapter 11 and the economy survived just fine.
Loss of jobs would most definitely result. Would that kill the economy? I doubt it.
The support contractors and suppliers, as with every single company that declares bankruptcy, would be affected. A death blow to the economy? It wasn't when the airlines went under.
As for increased cost of vehicles? There are other brands from different companies out there competing. Competition will keep prices down. A slight increase, perhaps, but not much with regards to that one commodity - automobiles.
Without going through the painful process of allowing unprofitable corporations to restructure under bankruptcy protection or go the way of the dodo, they will be on constant life support - from the taxpayer. I find that revolting in all regards.
[barf]
Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!
Gawain 0
Quote>I don't buy into the inane theory that the bankruptcy of one or any of
>these companies would be a backbreaking blow to the U.S. economy. Not
>by a long shot. Doesn't hold any water - not even an ounce.
Sorry to hear that, because it holds a lot more than an ounce. Having several of the biggest employers in the US go under bankruptcy protection will result in:
-loss of jobs
-bankruptcy of their suppliers, as their source of income is throttled by the courts
-increase in cost of vehicles and subsequent reduction in sales
That being said, it may well be best to allow the market to adjust by allowing GM et al to fail. This both 'prunes' an unprofitable company and allows new, more efficient companies to take their place. But claiming there will be no noticeable adjustment is not really a tenable position.
Bill, GM could cut 12,000 from their payroll, and not lose a single hour of productivity, why? Because they are in a job-bank. Guys that punch in, and do cross-word puzzles all day, making near-full pay, plus benefits. That's about $1.4B a year that GM spends on fat. (EDIT TO CHANGE FIGURE...)
Bankruptcy didn't force American Airlines, or United, or Delta out of the picture completely. Each still employ hundreds of thousands, and the indirect employment from their operations did not suffer headline-making losses.
The problem is this, GM, Ford, Chrysler is not being run well. It's a combination of not willing to stand up to union demands in the interest of running a profitable business.
It wasn't SUVs that threw these companies under the bus, GM has plenty of fuel efficient vehicles, as does Ford and Chrysler. It was the market perception that a Chevy Malibu is not worth as much as a Honda Accord or Toyota Camry, yet they are all in the same price segment. Ideally though, if GM had followed a production model similar to Honda or Toyota, the Malibus would be about 40% less MSRP.
It wasn't quality. It wasn't quantity. The big-3 were producing products that weren't what they cost to build.
Obama was on the news this morning saying "if the big 3 want to survive, they need to build fuel efficient cars" Well guess what dude? They already do. And the President-elect is chiming in with some BS that most will take as gospel because he can do no wrong.
He's WRONG.
That is not the problem. All of the major automakers bend over backwards to meet FEDERAL regulations and CARB ad infinitum.
Fact: In 1990, Honda had a Civic CRX HF that had higher fuel efficiency than any other non-hybrid on the market today. Why don't they make it now? They can't. Regulations force heavier vehicles. Emissions standards force more hardware (though cleaning up 90% of next to nothing is hardly an impact), which also adds weight.
I like to point at the unions, no big secret at that. But, they were on a two-way street with management. The other corroding factor here was government interference and their idea that they think they know how to build cars.
So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!
TheAnvil 0
Under Chapter 11 restructuring, I have no doubt those 12000 jobs would be gone instantly - but I don't think those 12000 folks and their benefits amount to 14 billion; it would surprise me greatly, at any rate. Nixng the UAW contract then restructuring the labor force would definitely be a major part of exiting CH 11. Ford has shown it can make some of the most efficient plants in the world - down in Brazil because UAW is opposed to such plants here in the US. Toyota, on the other hand, doesn't mind having its plants run as efficiently as possible, minimizing costs and therefore making itself more competitive.
Leftists don't get that, as they've lost sight of the fact that corporations exist to make a profit and not to provide jobs to workers. The Detroit 3 are corporations competing against other corporations that are NOT going to be hindered by such inanity. Bailing them out is sending $$ into a black hole with NO ROI for the taxpayer. They should enter CH 11, restructure, and become competitive or cease to exist. 
Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!
billvon 2,435
>Affect it? Yes. Break it irreparably? No way.
Of course it wouldn't break it irreparably. You could nuke every city in the US and the economy would (eventually) recover.
Losing the US car companies would be a massive and painful blow to the US's economy. GM is the 22nd largest manufacturer in the world; Ford is 31 and Chrysler is 16th. Combine them and you have the third largest company on the planet.
If they go bankrupt we would lose jobs, market capitalization and trade. Dozens of other companies would go under, includung parts manfacturers, car dealerships, banks, construction companies etc etc. It would have a ripple effect and create hundreds of Flint, Michigans throughout the US as large companies close their doors.
The question now is whether we are going to see a very deep recession of a 1930's-style depression. The car companies going under would put us closer to the depression scenario. And perhaps you feel that the primacy of the free market system is worth that pain. (In this case I think it is too.) But don't claim that there will be no pain, or that it will be minor. The economy works because it corrects itself, and one of the ways it corrects itself is through recessions, depressions and bankruptcies like this one.
Of course it wouldn't break it irreparably. You could nuke every city in the US and the economy would (eventually) recover.
Losing the US car companies would be a massive and painful blow to the US's economy. GM is the 22nd largest manufacturer in the world; Ford is 31 and Chrysler is 16th. Combine them and you have the third largest company on the planet.
If they go bankrupt we would lose jobs, market capitalization and trade. Dozens of other companies would go under, includung parts manfacturers, car dealerships, banks, construction companies etc etc. It would have a ripple effect and create hundreds of Flint, Michigans throughout the US as large companies close their doors.
The question now is whether we are going to see a very deep recession of a 1930's-style depression. The car companies going under would put us closer to the depression scenario. And perhaps you feel that the primacy of the free market system is worth that pain. (In this case I think it is too.) But don't claim that there will be no pain, or that it will be minor. The economy works because it corrects itself, and one of the ways it corrects itself is through recessions, depressions and bankruptcies like this one.
Gawain 0
QuoteUnder Chapter 11 restructuring, I have no doubt those 12000 jobs would be gone instantly - but I don't think those 12000 folks and their benefits amount to 14 billion; it would surprise me greatly, at any rate.
I mis-typed, I'll correct my post, not $14B, $1.4B...closer to $1.6B.
It's not exact, but here's my math:
Avg pro-rated wage: $25/hr, plus benefits, $40/hr (based on other published articles)
$2600/wk/person, by 52 weeks: $135K/person/year, multiply by 12,000 $1,622,400,000.
That doesn't pay for lights, materials, actual workers, pensions, management....
So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!
TheAnvil 0
Oooh, I think it will be painful, but necessary. I don't feel it will have as great an effect as you predict. I think two of the three would survive and emerge as stronger companies upon their exit from CH 11 protection - Ford and GM or Chrysler; possibly all three.
Ford, especially. Ford has shown they know how to do business efficiently - check out their plant in Brazil. The F-150 is a well designed and popular vehicle. Under CH 11 they could take the necessary and painful actions required to once again become a competitive company. Throwing $$ at them with their current contractual burden would be an insult to every tax payer.
Pain will be felt. It's going to be felt anyway. And holy SHIT will it be felt when other monsters in the shadows that have been ignored for far too long come and bite all of us in the arse - SS, PBGC, Medicare, Medicade, etc.
Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!
TheAnvil 0
Ha! You've found $1.5 of the $15 billion already! Whoohooo!
No need for taxpayer $$. CH 11 will allow the requisite restructuring to occur. 
Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!
QuoteI think you should re-examine that. Your assumption that automotive manufacturers are such a large part of the economy really isn't tenable to me. Autos are one of many consumer items sold in the US and there is no way in hell that having all of these companies go into Chapter 11 would break the US economy. Affect it? Yes. Break it irreparably? No way.
One car costs the same as 10 high end plasma TVs. For most people, after housing, it is the biggest portion of your budget.
jgoose71 0
Quote
I readily admit the US auto industry has more than eagerly dug their own graves, repeatedly, ever since at least the 1970's. Hell, we already bailed Chrysler out once before, back in the eighties. Detroit has made one stupid decision after another, trying to tell us what kind of cars we should buy, and then building shitty quality into them as well. Which is why our family owns a Honda and a Nissan....
If you remember rightly the Chrysler bailout was a loan that was paid back with intrest. Right now, according to some news channels this package is supposed to be a loan to be paid back after the big three clean house, refine their products into something that the world will buy, and become profitable again. I am for this since the collapsing banking system can't afford to give loans any more.
The idea of just giving away money makes me sick to my stomache though. Just like my kids, if you don't hold them accountable, will they learn their lesson?
"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything
Life, the Universe, and Everything
TheAnvil 0
Acquired with what periodicity?
Think again.
Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!
tbrown 26
Chapter 11 has been good enough for better run companies than these three. It's good enough for them. Putting $$ into these companies has ZERO ROI for the taxpayer and in today's budgetary environs that is even more unacceptable than normal - and it's ALWAYS unacceptable.
I disagree Vinny. Who would want to buy a car from a company in Chapter 11 ? Not me (I wouldn't anyway, after my disappointment with our Saturn I'm a rice-burner believer for life). It isn't just the people who work for any of the Big 3, it's all the connected and ancillary businesses, something I'm ver sensitive to working for an aerospace supplier to the big muckey-mucks.
I have no soft spots in my heart for any of the Big 3, or the people who run them. President Obama (hell, we can only have ONE President at a time, and W is on a permanent vodka & vicodin vacation) has already stated publicly that the CEO at GM needs to step down.
As right as your princples are, I am NOT willing to let things in the real world go to hell for them. America without an automotive industry ? You simply can't be serious.
Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !
tbrown 26
Chapter 11 has been good enough for better run companies than these three. It's good enough for them. Putting $$ into these companies has ZERO ROI for the taxpayer and in today's budgetary environs that is even more unacceptable than normal - and it's ALWAYS unacceptable.
I disagree Vinny. Who would want to buy a car from a company in Chapter 11 ? Not me (I wouldn't anyway, after my disappointment with our Saturn I'm a rice-burner believer for life). It isn't just the people who work for any of the Big 3, it's all the connected and ancillary businesses, something I'm ver sensitive to working for an aerospace supplier to the big muckey-mucks.
I have no soft spots in my heart for any of the Big 3, or the people who run them. President Obama (hell, we can only have ONE President at a time, and W is on a permanent vodka & vicodin vacation) has already stated publicly that the CEO at GM needs to step down.
As right as your princples are, I am NOT willing to let things in the real world go to hell for them. America without an automotive industry ? You simply can't be serious.
Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !
TheAnvil 0
In the real world, if these companies receive $$ without going through the pain of CH 11 bankruptcy, those rendering the $$ will all lose. The $$ won't be enough and the companies will come back for more.
I don't care if all three CEO's step down. President, President Elect, Savior of the Nation [barf], whatever you wish to call him - Mr. Obama - has shown he doesn't grasp the issues plaguing these companies. If he did, executive compensation wouldn't have appeared at all in his remarks.
If these companies can't enter and then exit CH11 without ceasing to exist, then they have no business continuing to exist.
Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!
billvon 2,435
>Who would want to buy a car from a company in Chapter 11 ?
Probably fewer people than would buy one now (not a lot to begin with.)
>I am NOT willing to let things in the real world go to hell for them.
>America without an automotive industry ?
Not for long. If GM/Ford/Chrysler go under, look to Aptera and Tesla to fill the gap (and bring leadership in technology and innovation back to the US.) Will it be painful? Yep, lots of union workers will lose their jobs. Will it create new industries and a whole lot of new billionaires? Yep. That's the way of capitalism.
Probably fewer people than would buy one now (not a lot to begin with.)
>I am NOT willing to let things in the real world go to hell for them.
>America without an automotive industry ?
Not for long. If GM/Ford/Chrysler go under, look to Aptera and Tesla to fill the gap (and bring leadership in technology and innovation back to the US.) Will it be painful? Yep, lots of union workers will lose their jobs. Will it create new industries and a whole lot of new billionaires? Yep. That's the way of capitalism.
QuoteAcquired with what periodicity?
Think again.
Think, yourself.
People buy big screen TVs at a frequency not too unlike how often they get cars. Even at a sane holding of 6 years, that's only 2 tvs, not 10. And now a good TV can be had for a grand, so the ratio might be 20 to 1.
The two cars and the 4 motorcycles I've purchased over the past 15 years totalled $73,000. Subtract for the sales of some (and totalling of one), and this is still 48,000, not including running costs of insurance, maintenance, or gas.
All my TVs (7), guns (5), dive gear (5?), skydiving gear/training (10?), computers (15?) still doesn't add up to 48k.
TheAnvil 0
[BARF]
Dear GOD Stalin and Lenin must be smiling up from the pits of hell right now! Holy shit is this absolutely nauseating to contemplate!
What next? A fucking airline? Maybe a train company? Or a housing complex? A construction company perhaps?
FUCKING IDIOTS! Absolute fucking morons! And the strategic choice for socialism/Marxism/communism hasn't even been sworn in yet! Bad decisions and union fucktardedness over YEARS cause corporations to self destruct and we're going to rescue them with taxpayer $$ without any ROI for the taxpayer.
With political vice judiciary oversight under CH 11, the requisite work force restructuring will not occur. Oh SHIT this is so fucking stupid.
I'll endeavor to not even RENT a vehicle from a company leeching taxpayer $$ from the Treasury to survive.
Now all we have to do is get this goat-fuck-stupid card check legislation passed, and the country will truly be headed to hell in a hand basket. Note to the fucktard pieces of shit who support card-check: If you can't tell the nation you're taking away the right to a secret ballot, then you're just like the majority of affirmative action supporters (who can't tell the nation they support racial discrimination) - cowards who can't state that which they support.
I'm going to go throw up.
[barf]
Dear GOD Stalin and Lenin must be smiling up from the pits of hell right now! Holy shit is this absolutely nauseating to contemplate!
What next? A fucking airline? Maybe a train company? Or a housing complex? A construction company perhaps?
FUCKING IDIOTS! Absolute fucking morons! And the strategic choice for socialism/Marxism/communism hasn't even been sworn in yet! Bad decisions and union fucktardedness over YEARS cause corporations to self destruct and we're going to rescue them with taxpayer $$ without any ROI for the taxpayer.
With political vice judiciary oversight under CH 11, the requisite work force restructuring will not occur. Oh SHIT this is so fucking stupid.
I'll endeavor to not even RENT a vehicle from a company leeching taxpayer $$ from the Treasury to survive.
Now all we have to do is get this goat-fuck-stupid card check legislation passed, and the country will truly be headed to hell in a hand basket. Note to the fucktard pieces of shit who support card-check: If you can't tell the nation you're taking away the right to a secret ballot, then you're just like the majority of affirmative action supporters (who can't tell the nation they support racial discrimination) - cowards who can't state that which they support.
I'm going to go throw up.
[barf]
Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!
steveOrino
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