Thanatos340 1 #26 October 16, 2008 Wow. you dance purdy nice there. keep on dancing my friend. I am enjoying the entertainment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,667 #27 October 16, 2008 Quote Wow. you dance purdy nice there. keep on dancing my friend. I am enjoying the entertainment. That's why you come here.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thanatos340 1 #28 October 16, 2008 Isnt that why we are all here? You dont really think anyone is ever going to change anyone esles mind here do you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,463 #29 October 16, 2008 >I dont recall screaming . . . You turned a question into "the initial attack" and talked about "spin" and "negative attacks" and said that "any logic and common sense at all goes right out the window" when someone asks about the plumber. If you meant all of that as a sort of a parody of what right wingers do, then my apologies - I missed the sarcasm. >I dont recall posting anything at all about a vet. I didn't say you did. >That is not the answer obama gave when he was asked that question. MCCAIN: No. I would like to mention that a couple days ago Senator Obama was out in Ohio and he had an encounter with a guy who's a plumber, his name is Joe Wurzelbacher. Joe wants to buy the business that he has been in for all of these years, worked 10, 12 hours a day. And he wanted to buy the business but he looked at your tax plan and he saw that he was going to pay much higher taxes. You were going to put him in a higher tax bracket which was going to increase his taxes, which was going to cause him not to be able to employ people, which Joe was trying to realize the American dream. . . . OBAMA: Now, the conversation I had with Joe the plumber, what I essentially said to him was, "Five years ago, when you were in a position to buy your business, you needed a tax cut then." And what I want to do is to make sure that the plumber, the nurse, the firefighter, the teacher, the young entrepreneur who doesn't yet have money, I want to give them a tax break now. And that requires us to make some important choices. The last point I'll make about small businesses. Not only do 98 percent of small businesses make less than $250,000, but I also want to give them additional tax breaks, because they are the drivers of the economy. They produce the most jobs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thanatos340 1 #30 October 16, 2008 QuoteYou turned a question into "the initial attack" and talked about "spin" and "negative attacks" and said that "any logic and common sense at all goes right out the window" when someone asks about the plumber. You mean this Quote from Post Number 20 in this thread: QuoteOf course you want to spin this as being a McCain negative attack. It isn’t. It is a response to a Valid question brought up by a PLUMBER. the one where I said it wasnt an attack? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #31 October 17, 2008 Quote What is the meaning of "is"? Okay, I sprayed tea on my cat at that one...So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #32 October 17, 2008 QuoteOBAMA: Now, the conversation I had with Joe the plumber, what I essentially said to him was, "Five years ago, when you were in a position to buy your business, you needed a tax cut then." Come on...you saw the video of what Sen. Obama said to Joe, he said nothing of the sort, he said, "Not that want to punish your success [but I will]...I want to spread the wealth around" QuoteAnd what I want to do is to make sure that the plumber, the nurse, the firefighter, the teacher, the young entrepreneur who doesn't yet have money, I want to give them a tax break now. And that requires us to make some important choices. Ask any business owner if a $4000 tax credit for creating a full time job is any kind of incentive... QuoteThe last point I'll make about small businesses. Not only do 98 percent of small businesses make less than $250,000, but I also want to give them additional tax breaks, because they are the drivers of the economy. They produce the most jobs. According to this, the average small business owner salary is $233K. To have an average that high, means there's very likely more than only 2% making more than $250K....way more than 2%...So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,463 #33 October 17, 2008 >Come on...you saw the video of what Sen. Obama said to Joe, he said >nothing of the sort, he said, "Not that want to punish your success [but I >will]...I want to spread the wealth around" I can't really take anyone seriously who uses a candidate's quote then inserts their own interpretation into the quote itself. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #34 October 17, 2008 Quote >Come on...you saw the video of what Sen. Obama said to Joe, he said >nothing of the sort, he said, "Not that want to punish your success [but I >will]...I want to spread the wealth around" I can't really take anyone seriously who uses a candidate's quote then inserts their own interpretation into the quote itself. Okay, he said, "Not that I want to punish your success...I want to spread the wealth around." How about now? So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,463 #35 October 17, 2008 >Okay, he said, "Not that I want to punish your success...I want to spread > the wealth around." How about now? Fair enough! He said what I would have said (although he said it awkwardly.) I do NOT want to punish anyone for their success, but I also am enough of a realist to know that we cannot have zero tax rates. So if you define taxation as "punishment" some people are going to be "punished" no matter what you do. You can't avoid that without dissolving the USA. I also want to spread the wealth around. Economies are healthiest when there is a smaller gap between the very rich and the very poor. Republicans want to do this by giving tax breaks to big corporations and moving the taxes onto the lower income people, hoping that money "trickles down." Democrats want to do this by taxing corporations heavily, giving lower income people tax breaks and incentives and hoping the money "trickles up." I don't like either method myself. We should do our best to get an accurate Laffer curve, choose our tax progression based on that, and then go to a balanced budget. If you cut spending one year, taxes go down via a simple formula. (Expenses/taxpayers = your tax rate.) If you increase spending, taxes go up. That way there's not this absurd notion that you can cut everyone's taxes, give banks a trillion dollars or so and have everything work out in the end. In Joe's case, everything I've seen indicates that an Obama tax plan would reduce his taxes after he buys the business. And had his tax plan been in place earlier, Joe would have been able to buy his business sooner (everything else being equal.) >Ask any business owner if a $4000 tax credit for creating a full time >job is any kind of incentive... To be fair, increasing taxes by a few percentage points on people making a quarter million a year is no kind of disincentive to make money, either. >According to this, the average small business owner salary is $233K. That survey defines "small" has having 500 employees or fewer. That's not my (nor most people's) definition of a small business. That's a successful statewide restaurant chain. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likearock 1 #36 October 17, 2008 Quote Wow. you dance purdy nice there. keep on dancing my friend. I am enjoying the entertainment. Wow, that sounds a little like Joe the Plumber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpoutnow 0 #37 October 17, 2008 Hell, I ain't a plumber. But, I have laid pipe.People are crazy. Cuz there's more of 'em. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyChimp 0 #38 October 17, 2008 QuoteAre you really a Professor? Does the fact that he works as a Plumber every day of his Life overshadow the fact the he personally doesnt have a License but does work under his partners license? Sounds alot like a Plumber to me. Don't forget to mention that he's seeking to purchase the current plumbing company. Go Joe the plumber!!! Does anyone else find it funny that we made a SPORT out of an EMERGENCY PROCEDURE?!?! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #39 October 17, 2008 Quote>Okay, he said, "Not that I want to punish your success...I want to spread > the wealth around." How about now? Fair enough! He said what I would have said (although he said it awkwardly.) I do NOT want to punish anyone for their success, but I also am enough of a realist to know that we cannot have zero tax rates. So if you define taxation as "punishment" some people are going to be "punished" no matter what you do. You can't avoid that without dissolving the USA. Bill, I know you're successful, please tell me what role the government played in your achievements, and success professionally and financially. QuoteI also want to spread the wealth around. Economies are healthiest when there is a smaller gap between the very rich and the very poor. I don't necessarily agree, but I'll put it aside for the moment, look at the original employees of MicroSoft versus the current "newer" employees. Still a healthy company. Not everyone can be rich, not everyone has the acumen to build or run a business. Quote Republicans want to do this by giving tax breaks to big corporations and moving the taxes onto the lower income people, hoping that money "trickles down." Incorrect, they want to cut taxes to everyone. The obvious affect is that those that make more, pay less dollars in taxes, yet still pay more than most. Despite corporate tax incentives to companies, the US still has the second highest corporate tax rate in the world. Show me the cuts. You can't . I can show you annual reports (I've posted plenty about Exxon here)...those evil cuts aren't there. QuoteDemocrats want to do this by taxing corporations heavily, giving lower income people tax breaks and incentives and hoping the money "trickles up." You forgot to add all the strings that go with it... QuoteI don't like either method myself. We should do our best to get an accurate Laffer curve, choose our tax progression based on that, and then go to a balanced budget. If you cut spending one year, taxes go down via a simple formula. (Expenses/taxpayers = your tax rate.) If you increase spending, taxes go up. That way there's not this absurd notion that you can cut everyone's taxes, give banks a trillion dollars or so and have everything work out in the end. Here we agree in broad strokes, but not in the method. Why have a progressive tax at all? Just a flat rate: gross income of $20,000 and up: 15%...period. Deduction for mortgage interest only. Retirements are tax free because the income was taxed when it was put in. THat or a national sales tax...put the IRS out of business. QuoteTo be fair, increasing taxes by a few percentage points on people making a quarter million a year is no kind of disincentive to make money, either. 34% to 39.5% is not small change to someone making $300K... In 2000, a 300K income had a tax liability of $96K, now it's $84K. Twelve grand is twelve grand. In 2000, a 150K income had a tax liability of $42K, now it's $35K. Seven thousand dollars!! In 2000, a 42K income had a tax liability of $8K, now it's $6K. http://www.moneychimp.com/features/tax_brackets.htm QuoteThat survey defines "small" has having 500 employees or fewer. That's not my (nor most people's) definition of a small business. That's a successful statewide restaurant chain. The Small Business Administration disagrees with you. Small Business is the economy!!So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,667 #40 October 17, 2008 (CNNMoney.com) -- In speech after speech, presidential candidate John McCain hammers on the claim that his rival Barack Obama will raise taxes on many small businesses. At the debate on Wednesday night, McCain said, "The small businesses that we're talking about would receive an increase in their taxes right now." More typically he has said: "What [Obama] hasn't told you is that he would tax half of the income of small businesses in America," a line used in La Crosse, Wisc., last week. Should small business owners fear for their wallets if Obama is elected? Not the vast majority, business and tax experts say. To make its claim, according to a McCain spokesman, the campaign counts as a small-business owner any taxpayer who files a Schedule C, E or F - the forms used to report gains and losses from business ventures and farms. Using that definition and citing IRS data, the campaign notes that "56.8% of total small business income is earned by businesses in the top two rates, which Barack Obama has pledged to raise." It's true that Obama has proposed raising taxes on the top two income rates. But there are three main problems with McCain's charge. What is a small business? First, it relies on a broad definition of what counts as a small business, including everyone who files a Schedule C, E and F. But most people who file those forms don't run a business for a living: Those forms are also used to report income from freelance and consulting work, real-estate rentals, and most other non-salary sources. For example, McCain and Obama both file Schedule C returns, thanks to their book royalties - but they hardly should be considered small business owners. In 2005, there were 21.5 million Schedule C returns filed, according to the IRS. A more realistic definition of small businesses turns up far fewer firms. The Small Business Administration estimates that there were 6 million small businesses in 2005, as measured by those with fewer than 500 employees and with staff on the payroll other than the owner. Who pays? Second, even using the broad definition of small business that McCain likes, very few owners would see their own taxes rise. That's because the lion's share of taxable income comes from a small number of wealthy businesses. Out of 34.7 million filers with business income on Schedules C, E or F, 479,000 filers fall into the top two brackets, according to an analysis of projected 2009 filings by the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center. The other 34.3 million - or 98.6% - would be unaffected by Obama's proposed rate hike. That includes Joe "The Plumber" Wurzelbacher, whom McCain invoked nearly two dozen times at the debate Wednesday night to illustrate the plight of the average worker and small business owner. "Joe wants to buy the business that he has been in for all of these years ... he wanted to buy the business but he looked at your tax plan and he saw that he was going to pay much higher taxes," McCain said. In an interview afterward with WTOL, Wurzelbacher acknowledged that he'd still like to eventually buy the plumbing company he works for but that he wouldn't yet be hit by higher taxes. "I want to set the record straight: Currently I would not fall into Barack Obama's $250,000-plus," he said. "But if I'm lucky in business and taxes don't go up then maybe I can grow the business and be in that tax bracket - well, let me rephrase it. Hopefully, that tax won't be there." Few owners are that lucky in business. In a member survey conducted late last year, the National Federation of Independent Business (NFIB) found that only 14% of respondents said they had $200,000 or more in annual income. As Tax Policy Center fellow Len Berman recently told Fortune Small Business: "Most owners of small businesses have small incomes." What gets taxed? Third, even if you're one of the rare business owners making enough money to be affected by Obama's proposed tax increases, you still won't see a big hike in your tax bill. McCain's claim that Obama "will increase taxes on 50% of small business revenue" - the line he used in the second presidential debate - is incorrect because of how income is taxed. If a business owner falls into the top bracket, that doesn't mean that all of his or her income is taxed at the highest level. For example: If a small-business owner makes $210,000 in taxable income, he edges into the 33% bracket, one of the two top tax rates that Obama would like to raise. But he would pay the higher tax only on the amount that exceeds the cutoff - in 2007, the two top tax rates applied to single filers with income of $160,850 or more and joint filers with income of at least $195,850. As a single filer, this business owner would see his federal taxes increase $1,475 under Obama's plan, which calls for raising the 33% tax rate to 36%. "While Obama does favor raising the top two rates, the quote is not true because not all the small business income of those in the top two rates is taxed at the 33% and 35% rates," said Gerald Prante, a senior economist at the nonpartisan Tax Foundation. The bottom line: McCain's claim only works by using an overly broad definition of what counts as a "small business" - and even with that definition, fewer than 2% of business owners would be hit by Obama's proposed rate increase. For those who are affected, the increase would be levied only on a part of their earnings, not all of them.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #41 October 17, 2008 Quote voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/10/16/joe_the_plumber_not_a_licensed.html?hpid=topnews Speaking of dust-throwing and eyes...Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PLFXpert 0 #42 October 17, 2008 QuoteNot only do 98 percent of small businesses make less than $250,000... I submit a lot more than 2% of small-businesses have net profits of $250k or more with owners salaried at no more than $80k/year or less. Either that, or I just happen to know all 2%.Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 200 #43 October 17, 2008 To really understand this issue you need to understand the accrual method of accounting vs. the cash method. Boring real life example. I worked for a company that financed cars for people with bad credit. Car cost $1000 Selling price $2500 Down Payment $500 TAXABLE INCOME $1500 Seems pretty straightforward until you look at the cash flow. I spent $1000 for the car. The customer gave me $500. I'm negative $500 in cash flow but the government says I owe tax on $1500. It doesn't take many of those types of transactions to get over the $250K mark. We had 13 employees and had a taxable income of well over $1,000,000 in 2002. We also had about $20,000 more in cash at the end of the year than the beginning. This situation will not be unfamiliar for anyone using the accrual method of accounting.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,463 #44 October 17, 2008 >please tell me what role the government played in your achievements . . . I would not today have the (good) job that I have if not for the FCC, an organization that allocates and enforces frequency band assignments. I would likely not have the education that I have without government loans and government scholarships. I would not even be here if the US did not accept a massive flood of refugees from the fallout of the Irish potato famine. >Incorrect, they want to cut taxes to everyone. Impossible without cutting spending, and no republican is willing to do that. Might as well say democrats just want everyone to be rich without increasing spending. >Despite corporate tax incentives to companies, the US still has the >second highest corporate tax rate in the world. Show me the cuts. You >can't . I can show you annual reports (I've posted plenty about Exxon >here)...those evil cuts aren't there. ===================================== Bush to veto bill rolling back tax breaks for oil White House says the president will refuse to sign a bill that puts an end to $18 billion in tax cuts for the oil industry. February 26 2008: 7:12 PM EST WASHINGTON (AP) -- If Congress passes legislation to roll back nearly $18 billion in tax breaks for large oil companies, advisers to President Bush will recommend a veto, the White House said Tuesday. ====================================== Looks like the onus is on you to prove that Bush is lying. >You forgot to add all the strings that go with it . . . Both approaches have huge strings attached. That's the point. > Why have a progressive tax at all? Because a 42% tax on every american would cripple our economy. And that would be bad. >34% to 39.5% is not small change to someone making $300K... OK. Then a $4000 tax credit is not small change either. >The Small Business Administration disagrees with you. Do you think a restaurant chain of 16 restaurants in Texas is a "small business?" If so, then we will have to agree to disagree. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zoom1 0 #45 October 18, 2008 come to find out not only did he make himself a plumber he also gave himself a tax cut,he has'nt been paying state tax's and is about ready to loose his home.good luck buying that business with no credit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TankBuster 0 #46 October 18, 2008 QuoteThe McCain campaign thrust greatness upon Joe so they could score a few political points. True, but the only political points come from the chosen one's own mouth. Getting him to actually voice his love of wealth redistribution is definitely a coup.The forecast is mostly sunny with occasional beer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kbordson 8 #47 October 18, 2008 QuoteQuoteNot only do 98 percent of small businesses make less than $250,000... I submit a lot more than 2% of small-businesses have net profits of $250k or more with owners salaried at no more than $80k/year or less. Either that, or I just happen to know all 2%. I agree. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks2065 0 #48 October 18, 2008 Quote>It is a response to a Valid question brought up by a PLUMBER. Right. I'm not disputing his right to ask the question; he can ask whatever he wants. Nor is Kallend out of line for asking questions about him. I am amused that you go into purple faced outrage mode when anyone DARES QUESTION THE PLUMBER! While at the same time in another thread another right winger is questioning the valor of a World War II vet who has the gall to want to vote democratic in an election. It's an interesting double standard. I know you won't acknowledge it, but I think it's pretty clear. >However if he succeeded in achieving his goal of buying his company, The Taxes >would be Higher under Obamas plan. No, that's incorrect. 98% of small businesses will see lower taxes - and if the description that Joe gave of his business is correct, then it falls well within that 98%. Only if Joe the Plumber becomes Joe the Official Plumbing Supplier for Wal-Mart would his taxes go up, and no one has suggested that that's the case. >But it seems any logic and common sense at all goes right out the window . . . . . . when a candidate starts losing badly. It happens every election here. joe would be better off under Obama's plan if Obama does what he says. the issue here is that joe doesn't want a socialist government or welfare. he wants to work hard and make his own way. people have forgot what the AMERICAN DREAM is. the american drean is that you have the ability to pick your profession and achieve the level of sucsess you want. work for a living, striving for a good life and giving your children a better place to live is what it is all about. nowhere in the constitution does it say that government should level the playing field and give out the earnings of one to uplift onother. Obama is going to make this country a welfare state. Hawaii just stopped their version of welfare medical aid. they found that people that could afford thier own insurance went to the state insurance program and it became to large to handle. --------------------------------------------------------- "HONOLULU – Hawaii is dropping the only state universal child health care program in the country just seven months after it launched. Gov. Linda Lingle's administration cited budget shortfalls and other available health care options for eliminating funding for the program. A state official said families were dropping private coverage so their children would be eligible for the subsidized plan. "People who were already able to afford health care began to stop paying for it so they could get it for free," said Dr. Kenny Fink, the administrator for Med-QUEST at the Department of Human Services. "I don't believe that was the intent of the program." ----------------------------------------------------------- this article is a perfect example of what is going to happen under Obama. the welfare in this country is going to soar to unpresidented levels and become the overwelming burden that others have fought hard to prevent. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks2065 0 #49 October 18, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteNot only do 98 percent of small businesses make less than $250,000... I submit a lot more than 2% of small-businesses have net profits of $250k or more with owners salaried at no more than $80k/year or less. Either that, or I just happen to know all 2%. I agree. i know from owning my own bisiness that if i had 2 or 3 locations i would definitly be over the 250k that Obama wants to tax. under the currant tax laws it is possible to owe taxes on income that was paid out on year but deducted the year earlier. this could bring many small bisinesses into the tax bracket for higher taxes and not have the cash on hand to pay the taxes. do people not realize that the labor and property are already cheaper over seas? the taxe rate going up WILL send more jobs overseas. why would any good bisiness stay here? we need to promote growth of jobs not send them elsewere. lowering taxes has ALWAYS shown an increase in tax revenue due to more jobs and bisinesses created buy the cuts. with that said wouldn't raising taxes do just the oposite? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TankBuster 0 #50 October 18, 2008 Quotedo people not realize that the labor and property are already cheaper over seas? the taxe rate going up WILL send more jobs overseas. why would any good bisiness stay here? we need to promote growth of jobs not send them elsewere. lowering taxes has ALWAYS shown an increase in tax revenue due to more jobs and bisinesses created buy the cuts. with that said wouldn't raising taxes do just the oposite? Exactly. And have you noticed that one of BHO's favorite lines goes something like "McCain wants to give tax cuts to wealthy corporations that ship our jobs overseas?" Well yeah. But here's the BIG problem. BHO is not an idiot, or a Muslim, or a terrorist as some want to characterize him. What he iz iz, a typical politician, born and raised (politically) in the Chicago Machine, who knows exactly what he's saying is false but great rhetoric that the uneducated masses will buy, and will get him elected.The forecast is mostly sunny with occasional beer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
