McCain camp -- good...reeeeeaaal good

[Lucky... 0]

Quote

Quote

She also didnt say that Obama had the solution for HIV. She said "vote Obama". Dont you think she is implying vote for him so he can lead you? If you and the McCain camp are somehow registering vote for Obama so he "couldnt lead you" than we need to work on some listening skills. The McCain camp couldnt come up with anything better than what Clinton didnt say. That's a come back from a point of weakness. We dont need weak leaders. She didnt say a lot of things, but she did say vote for Obama. Why would she say vote for him, if she didnt imply him leading you. That's retarted (or senile)

McCain, using the Karl Rove techniques, is looking like a kid at the playground who isnt getting his turn on the swing.

When you return to earth I would suggest you do the following:

1. Get educated on what Hillary said about Obama in the primaries.

2. Listen again to her speech at the DNC and what she didn't say that reinforces her views throughout the primaries that he lacks leadership abilities as a President.

3. Understand that her speech left open her ability to go after him again in the 2012 rematch.

4. Retake high school American Government & Politics 101.

After completing the above, please return to the conversation.

P.S. I could care less about McCain or Obama as I don't like either of them as a choice for president.

>>>>>>>>>>>P.S. I could care less about McCain or Obama as I don't like either of them as a choice for president.


WE'll do that if you learn that the expression goes: ...couldn't care less...


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>1. Get educated on what Hillary said about Obama in the primaries.

Can you show me an election cycle where the primary candidates don't hammer each other and then make up as one ends? How about McCain and Bush in was it 2000 or 2004? Bush made little of McCain's military service when Bush was the crackhead war dodger, McCain pointed that out and then you never heard a thing about it after the war dodger won the primary and McCain endorsed him all the way. Edwards was the only real candidate I never noticed getting real dirty in the primaries.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>2. Listen again to her speech at the DNC and what she didn't say that reinforces her views throughout the primaries that he lacks leadership abilities as a President.


Didn't hear it the first time, but who cares if she didn't? Sure she doesn't like him, nor does Bill, so what? They were rivals not too long ago. You probably hate her and think nothing of what she says, now youi hang on her every word?


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>3. Understand that her speech left open her ability to go after him again in the 2012 rematch.


Only real way she has a chance is if Obama loses to Bush Jr this cycle, which she hopes.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>4. Retake high school American Government & Politics 101.


I'm sure you're not the repository of all poli-sci in here.

[pop 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Just to be clear, what religion has been forced upon you and how many civil rights have you given up?

My cell phone use records made it to the government without my consent.

really? I've never met anyone who could actually answer that question. How'd you find out?

verizon was sued for that.. The Patriot Act takes away civil rights. Guantanamo Bay takes away human rights.

7 ounce wonders, music and dogs that are not into beer

[Lucky... 0]

Quote

Quote

hmm, there's hypocrisy - GWB has not shown us the ability to lead either.....

Which just reinforces the need for good leadership.

Quote

the ability to lead comes after you get elected, not before.... There is no test before the oath of office that determines it

That's a joke, right?

The truth to lead at that level will be tested IF that person is elected. The evidence to lead has been established already thru his senatorial performance.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I think Obama might actually be good for the US on the international front (despite his lack of experience) but on the domestic economic front I am sorry he will be a disaster. There is no way in hell he is going to be able to deliver all his domestic promises and still live up to his international promises. Obama should have selected Romney as his VP to handle the domestic economic side, but Romney would probably laugh at him.

I still don't understand why the GOP rejected Romney except to say that I guess the GOP doesn't like mormons even though Romney doesn't seem to push his religious views.

Oh well ... try not to worry about the things you have no control over.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Ron 7]

Quote

the ability to lead comes after you get elected, not before.... There is no test before the oath of office that determines it

Considering how bad of a leader you think GWB was...You think just handing the keys to the country to anyone without a proven track record is a good idea?

You can claim BO has a track record, but in many really important areas he has ZERO experience. Like defense, and foreign policy for example.

BO has been in Congress only two years. In that time the only committee he was head of never met. He was a good civic leader, but that is a FAR cry from running the largest entity in the World.

Honestly, how much of your liking BO is really just partisanship and hatred of GWB & Co.?

My problems with him?

1. Zero foreign policy and defense Exp.

2. I don't agree with his stance on the 2nd and desire to reenact the failure that was the AWB.

3. I think the US was founded on capitalism. That means that a market based approach should be used to solve problems to include the health care issue, not trying to change what the US is. (I realize that you being from Canada you feel otherwise...Fine)

4. Almost all of his plans somehow involve spending govt money to fix problems. That money has to come from somewhere...He talks very little of cutting costs and as manager of a business, you know that cutting expenses is the fastest and most sure method of reducing a deficit.

Still, I think he is a smart guy. I like the fact that he wants to leave Iraq now (hey, they want us gone...Lets go).

But the balance sheet between BO and JM weighs to JM for me.

But, as for no test for leadership and just hand him the keys....That would be like saying that we should just take an AFF student to level 7 since he did a good L1 IMO.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[tkhayes 126]

glad you helped me make my point.

Were are a SMALL corporation, sure to make a buck, but mostly to do what we want to do - all the owners are/were skydivers, doing skydiving stuff. I actually care about my customers and my staff, as well as make a dollar.

A LARGE corporation (Generally) exists only to make a return for the shareholder, therefore do not care that much about their customers, their staff, and often about their product or service.

i.e. my Verizon experience, still ongoing for 8 weeks now.

so yes, being a small corporation does actually make a difference.

[tkhayes 126]

Quote

1. Zero foreign policy and defense Exp.

nothing wrong with a fresh outlook - lots of rookie politicians around the world do a good job of running things, probably because they are not already brainwashed by the system into just paying the same game. experience has some value, yes, it is not usually a deciding factor for me.

Quote

3. I think the US was founded on capitalism. That means that a market based approach should be used to solve problems to include the health care issue, not trying to change what the US is. (I realize that you being from Canada you feel otherwise...Fine)

I thought the pilgrims came here for RELIGIOUS FREEDOM, not capitalism...., at least that's what they taught me in my citizenship test, it's actually a question to get in the country.

Quote

4. Almost all of his plans somehow involve spending govt money to fix problems. That money has to come from somewhere...He talks very little of cutting costs and as manager of a business, you know that cutting expenses is the fastest and most sure method of reducing a deficit.

you must be kidding.... GWB and the Republicans have spent enough money on a fucking war to fund healthcare, and college education for most Americans....., closing in on a trillion and will end up at 3 times that I expect. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/16/AR2007111600865_pf.html just to name one of hundreds or articles that demonstrate where the money could have been better spent.

If you are going to spend a trillion dollars, then at least spend it on US (Americans), not on some fucking third world country halfway around the world.

Oh yes, and my health insurance just went up again to $800/month. Way more than I would spend in taxes in CANADA for the 'free health insurance' you guys so much despise.

my vote is for social programs, more of them at least, stop the military industrial complex http://coursesa.matrix.msu.edu/~hst306/documents/indust.html.

Will OB do that? Not on his own. Will JM do that? Not a chance.

glad my vote will negate yours.... what a great country!

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

desire to reenact the failure that was the AWB.

Average White Band? They had funk, man.

[Ron 7]

Quote

experience has some value, yes, it is not usually a deciding factor for me.

So, if a guy did a good level one you would give him his license? We clearly are just going to disagree on this.

Quote

I thought the pilgrims came here for RELIGIOUS FREEDOM, not capitalism...., at least that's what they taught me in my citizenship test, it's actually a question to get in the country.

Then since you took that test you should know that the Country was not founded till the Declaration and Constitution were signed. If you passed the test you would know that the US has a long history of capitalism.

Quote

you must be kidding.... GWB and the Republicans

GWB is not running again. You know, that test you took should have said something about term limits.

Quote

Oh yes, and my health insurance just went up again to $800/month.

Mine is about 125/mth. Get better insurance. I can give you the name of a great agent...Bucky.

Quote

glad my vote will negate yours....

Not really. Maybe you need to take that test again? Ask about the process we use to elect a President. Hint: It is not popular vote.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[FallingOsh 0]

Quote

I did not say that religion has been forced on me.

By religion, I generally mean the country being run (in part) by 'large organized religion' and their inroads into politics, where it does not belong....

Obama and Biden are both Christian. I assume that doesn't sway your vote away from them.

Ending "The military complex" or whatever you said will not, in any way, in any twisted universe make our country safer, stronger, or more respected. Using it in a different way... possibly.

Maybe you didn't mean ending military funding but Obama has said he'll do whatever he can to slow down weapon platforms development. No experience in military affairs or foreign policy shows through with comments like that.

--------------------------------------------------
Stay positive and love your life.

[n23x 0]

1st, What's up Ron, welcome back!

I disagree with your experience/skydiving analogy. Some of us might look at it more like this:

Which jumper would you prefer to have on your DZ:

A.) Younger, aware jumper, 25 jumps, head on a swivel, trying to learn as much as possible, and making the right, safe decisions.

B.) Older guy, cocky, who'll tell you about his thousands of jumps, who has a tendancy to hum it low, and toggle whip in the student landing area.

B's 'experience' is WAY better than A's. His demonstrated judgement, however, is substantially worse. B's got a TON of experience though, so we'll just brush it off when he tells AFF students to spend a little extra time fighting a horseshoe, or PC in tow, etc.

I personally look forward to trying the guy who seems to have good judgement, and seems smart enough to not only gain the experience quickly, but apply it in an educated mannor.

Quote

GWB is not running again.

GWB is absolutely not running again. Thank jeebus! However, JM has been demonstrating a very similar track record to GWB. I'd like something different, please. I have local issues with JM as well. He has demonstrated a lack of understanding w/r/t the internet, net neutrality, and privacy issues (internet + telecom).

Do I have concerns with BO? Absolutely, but the amount of dissatisfaction I have for this current admin completely repels me from anyone bearing the slightest resemblance (as I think it does for many Americans).

.jim

"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC

[SpeedRacer 1]

didn't McCain crash something like five Navy planes?

Speed Racer
--------------------------------------------------

[SpeedRacer 1]

fun with quotes:

Quote

Do I have concerns with BO? Absolutely,

Speed Racer
--------------------------------------------------

[kallend 1,623]

Quote

didn't McCain crash something like five Navy planes?

According to these guys.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[FallingOsh 0]

Quote

Which jumper would you prefer to have on your DZ:

A.) Younger, aware jumper, 25 jumps, head on a swivel, trying to learn as much as possible, and making the right, safe decisions.

B.) Older guy, cocky, who'll tell you about his thousands of jumps, who has a tendancy to hum it low, and toggle whip in the student landing area.

It's not a question of who you want on the DZ. It's a question of who you want running the USPA.

Obama is very smart and very smooth. He deserves a place in national government and I think he'll eventually be a very good asset. Just like your 25 jump guy. BUT, potential does not equal ability. Go make a few thousand jumps, learn the ropes, and apply for the job later on.

Just for the record, McCain has never been the one accused of being cocky. Check out the Greek god background for Obama tonight. Screams humble leader.

--------------------------------------------------
Stay positive and love your life.

[n23x 0]

Quote

fun with quotes:

Quote

Do I have concerns with BO? Absolutely,

Hey, I sweat a lot!

.jim

"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC

[nerdgirl 0]

Quote

... Obama has said he'll do whatever he can to slow down weapon platforms development.

Do you have a source for that?

Sen Obama has asserted he will not support the development of new nuclear weapons platforms (e.g., the RRW).

His defense policy, however, includes support for "plans to increase the size of the Army by 65,000 soldiers and the Marines by 27,000 troops" and defense acquisition platform includes increased support for Unmanned Aerial Vehicles, electronic warfare capabilities, C-17 cargo, KC-X air refueling aircraft, Marine littoral combat ships, and advanced biological agent countermeasures.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[DSE 3]

Quote

Just to be clear, what religion has been forced upon you and how many civil rights have you given up?

Honest question.

I am forced to deal with Christianity having an undue and unprecedented influence upon the leaders of the nation in which I live.

My cell phone records, library activity, and other personal behaviors are either monitored, or legal to monitor.

My rights as a traveling citizen may not have ended, but they've been significantly inconvenienced both in this country and other countries as responses to our own national paranoia.
Privileges I once enjoyed as a natural part of my pursuit of happiness are now relegated to being paid for via private, 3rd parties that our government has contracted, ie; independent taxation...
The list is lengthy. It may not be tied to one party or the other, but the list is lengthy.

[n23x 0]

I'm going to disagree. I'll still pick the guy demonstrating what I perceive to be better judgement, than the guy with more experience. I would prefer to try the guy who will more objectively approach each new situation, rather than say, "this is the play in the playbook we've always used, lets do it again!".

Quote

Just for the record, McCain has never been the one accused of being cocky. Check out the Greek god background for Obama tonight. Screams humble leader.

I heard BO is going to cruise in on a chariot pulled by 6 horses, in a toga with gold leaves!

Mccain, in his current much, much, much older days is less cocky than he was in his younger, much, much older maverick days.

.jim

"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC

[FallingOsh 0]

Quote

I am forced to deal with Christianity having an undue and unprecedented influence upon the leaders of the nation in which I live.

Undue, your opinion of course. Unprecedented, hardly.

Quote

My cell phone records, library activity, and other personal behaviors are either monitored, or legal to monitor.

If you're not talking to suspect regimes in the middles east, I guarantee your cell phone calls are not monitored.

Quote

My rights as a traveling citizen may not have ended, but they've been significantly inconvenienced both in this country and other countries as responses to our own national paranoia.

First, I'd say we have a right to be paranoid since new videos are released on a weekly basis claiming the need to destroy western civilization. What do you mean by inconvenienced travel? Getting a passport for the carribbean was a pain in the ass for about 20 minutes but the rest of the world requires them, so whatever.

Quote

Privileges I once enjoyed as a natural part of my pursuit of happiness are now relegated to being paid for via private, 3rd parties that our government has contracted, ie; independent taxation...

Your pursuit of happiness includes non-independent taxation? Those government contracts (assuming I understand the contractors you're talking about) provide thousands of jobs and billions of dollars for civilian companies. Maybe I'm just misunderstanding.


Here's the Obama quote I was talking about. Unfortunately the video was deleted from youtube.
"I will cut investments in unproven missile defense systems. I will not weaponize space. I will slow our development of future combat systems."

He also talks about ending nuclear weapons in the same speach. probably the same quote you were referencing. Cutting wasteful spending is good. Slowing development of future combat systems is naive and rediculous. It took 20 years to bring the F-22 online. How much slower could it get?

Reference article: http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=297645696465868
not a good source but like i said, the video was removed from youtube.

--------------------------------------------------
Stay positive and love your life.

[FallingOsh 0]

Quote

I'm going to disagree. I'll still pick the guy demonstrating what I perceive to be better judgement, than the guy with more experience. I would prefer to try the guy who will more objectively approach each new situation, rather than say, "this is the play in the playbook we've always used, lets do it again!".

Fair enough.

I didn't know McCain when he was younger, not that I know him now, but still. I wasn't alive when he entered politics. I was in college when Obama joined in.

--------------------------------------------------
Stay positive and love your life.

[Amazon 7]

Wow.. a new swift boating from a whole new group and direction...very interesting.

[DSE 3]

Quote

If you're not talking to suspect regimes in the middles east, I guarantee your cell phone calls are not monitored.

Sounds like you know something the AG of my state doesn't know. Care to elaborate? yes, I do daily speak with clients in the middle east.

Quote

My rights as a traveling citizen may not have ended, but they've been significantly inconvenienced both in this country and other countries as responses to our own national paranoia.

Quote

First, I'd say we have a right to be paranoid since new videos are released on a weekly basis claiming the need to destroy western civilization. What do you mean by inconvenienced travel? Getting a passport for the carribbean was a pain in the ass for about 20 minutes but the rest of the world requires them, so whatever.

CLEARly you're in the dark about what I'm speaking of, and obviously you don't travel much. Nope, I'm not talking about independent contractors, and not referring to the TSA, which is a joke of unprecedented proportion.
Hard to be a well-rounded citizen of the planet if one hasn't experienced much of it first-hand, but it's easy to be paranoid if one doesn't know much about those you feel the need to be frightened of.
That said...I'm not advocating either camp in this thread, and won't.
Yes, "undue and unprecedented in my lifetime" is my opinion based on my experience. The Christian right that supports McCain scares the hell out of me. Just as much as the fanatic Muslims frighten me. IMO, they're both at opposite ends of the same circle. The difference is, the Muslims aren't knocking on my door telling me how evil I am, and they're not passing laws in my country, either.

[nerdgirl 0]

Quote

Here's the Obama quote I was talking about. Unfortunately the video was deleted from youtube.
"I will cut investments in unproven missile defense systems. I will not weaponize space. I will slow our development of future combat systems."

Aaah. FCS is a specific US Army platform not all future combat systems, although I can see how if one was not familar with DoD MDAPs that could be a confusion.

Quote

He also talks about ending nuclear weapons in the same speach. probably the same quote you were referencing.

Correct. New weapons platforms, e.g., the RRW. That's a good thing, imo.

Quote

Cutting wasteful spending is good. Slowing development of future combat systems is naive and rediculous.

Concur ... however, FCS is not what you think it is nor is it what Sen Obama has proposed. And the current DoD is already slowing development of FCS.

FCS has been highly problematic, has had >$70B in cost overruns (over the original $92B estimate for 1/3 of FCS), and currently OSD & the Army are considering cutting it:

"'They are looking to slip it to the right [i.e., move the deliverables further out in time - nerdgirl] or kill it,' said a source familiar with FCS options advanced by the Pentagon's office of program analysis and evaluation [PAIO was started by SecDef McNamara and reports directly to the secDef; they are *very* powerful - nerdgirl].

"Army officials are working to convince Pentagon leaders, including [DepSecDef Gordon] England, to reconsider cutting or even terminating FCS, the service's only major new-start development program.

"Army Chief of Staff Gen. Peter Schoomaker is scheduled to meet Friday with England and again make the case for the program, a briefing that is expected to discuss FCS' relevance to today's challenges."

That last part is of particular interest to many who are balancing the needs for capabilities against a peer-competitor (e.g., China) versus assymetric or counterinsurgency operations (e.g., Iraq or Afghanistan).

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[billvon 2,400]

>If you're not talking to suspect regimes in the middles east, I guarantee
>your cell phone calls are not monitored.

========================================
US govt may appeal in AT&T wiretap case

By Thomas C Greene in Dublin
Published Thursday 9th November 2006 14:33 GMT

The US government and AT&T have been granted an opportunity to argue for dismissal of their case concerning the mass wiretapping of phone and email traffic, Reuters reports.

The US Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals ruled on Tuesday that the defendants' motion for dismissal, originally rejected by US District Court Judge Vaughn Walker back in July, will be heard.
Click here to find out more!

The case was initiated by the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) in January, and alleges that AT&T gave the NSA unlawful access to citizens' phone and email records in a massive, warrantless, electronic dragnet.
========================================
Federal Source to ABC News: We Know Who You're Calling

May 15, 2006 10:33 AM

Brian Ross and Richard Esposito Report:

A senior federal law enforcement official tells ABC News the government is tracking the phone numbers we (Brian Ross and Richard Esposito) call in an effort to root out confidential sources.

"It's time for you to get some new cell phones, quick," the source told us in an in-person conversation.

ABC News does not know how the government determined who we are calling, or whether our phone records were provided to the government as part of the recently-disclosed NSA collection of domestic phone calls.

Other sources have told us that phone calls and contacts by reporters for ABC News, along with the New York Times and the Washington Post, are being examined as part of a widespread CIA leak investigation.
=========================================
July 1, 2008, 7:14 pm
Is the Government Tracking Us Through Our Cellphones? Lawsuit Seeks Answers.

By Matt Richtel

How widely is the United States government using cellphones to pinpoint the locations or track the movements of Americans, or people living on American soil?

In November 2007, the American Civil Liberties Union filed a Freedom of Information Act request with the Department of Justice seeking records related to such tracking practices. The Justice Department did not provide the requested information, the ACLU said.
=========================================

>First, I'd say we have a right to be paranoid since new videos
>are released on a weekly basis claiming the need to destroy western
>civilization.

You can be as paranoid as you like. You are FAR more likely to have your email or cellphone spied upon than to be blown up by an evil terrorist, though.