Africa is giving nothing to anyone -- apart from AIDS

[riddler 0]

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Education on a systemic level would improve matters greatly, but how do you succeed in this given the constant civil wars, the near killing of teachers for calling a bear Mohammed, and the existing poverty that prevents kids from being in class?

Education implies choice, which many of the women simply do not have. As far as male birth control, I remember reading in either thailand or viet-nam the goverment sponsers a National Vascectomy Day, and give out free vasectomies.

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Can someone explain to me why WE (foreign nations) are obligated to do anything at all for these people?

Well, if we are talking about birth control, then from an environmental perspective, we should be doing everything we can for third-world countries. I've been to Indonesia and seen entire communities line up to throw their garbage into the sea. Keep in mind this is the fourth most populated country in the world, and imagine hundreds of millions of people all throwing their garbage into the sea. It made me wonder why I bother recycling at all I am against US involvement in foreign war and politics, but we are all sharing the environment, so I think we should do something to help ourselves by helping them.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[millertime24 8]

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Well, if we are talking about birth control, then from an environmental perspective, we should be doing everything we can for third-world countries.

You cant FORCE people to fuck without rubbers or get a vasectomy or not fuck at all. People will do what they do and if you dont like it then (short of complete annihilation) theres really nothing you can do about it.

And no I DO NOT support the eradication of a people. Just pointing out the obvious.

Muff #5048

[riddler 0]

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You cant FORCE people

I never said you could. However, if we provide free birth control in the same way we provide free food and medicine, a lot of people will elect it.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[rhys 0]

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Why are you giving the African leaders a pass?

I'm not, in alot of cases they are worthless pieces of shit, all they care about is themselves and thier brand new Toyota landcruizers.

They would not have thier brand new landcruizers if they weren't being paid off by foreign corporations.

If you have spent any amount of time in Africa? as i have, you will come to realise there is not much of an option for the leaders there, than to continue the corruption. if they do not they will most likely be thrown out on the street and set alight with parafin oil.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[ianmdrennan 2]

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Why are you giving the African leaders a pass?

I'm not, in alot of cases they are worthless pieces of shit, all they care about is themselves and thier brand new Toyota landcruizers.

They would not have thier brand new landcruizers if they weren't being paid off by foreign corporations.

If you have spent any amount of time in Africa? as i have, you will come to realise there is not much of an option for the leaders there, than to continue the corruption. if they do not they will most likely be thrown out on the street and set alight with parafin oil.

Yes I have - I grew up there and lived there for 22 years.

And, yes I agree with the corruption statements.

Performance Designs Factory Team

[kelpdiver 2]

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If you have spent any amount of time in Africa? as i have, you will come to realise there is not much of an option for the leaders there, than to continue the corruption. if they do not they will most likely be thrown out on the street and set alight with parafin oil.

Which also isn't the fault of the West. The people have themselves to blame.

[rhys 0]

It is a sensitive subject, if the aid stops then people will die, but some of this aid is making more problems than it is solving.

any sigificant amount of money (millions of dollars) more often ends up in the wrong hands.

i have personally witnessed volunteers from USA, Canada, england etc. come over to africa, get thrown in a classroom with 100 kids that don't speak english while they don't speak the native tounge either. they stay for 3 weeks spend over $10,000 doing so and all the kids endup with is confusion.

The amount of monry that goes into aid is not the same as what is being spent on the people there.

Companies are formed purely to tap into the aid money that people give to make themselves feel better.

is aid supposed to help the africans or make the donors feel better about themselves?

The situation is fucked up. Meanwhile the vast amount of natural recources are being raped while the locals starve and work (hard)for less then $2 per day.

are the people to blame for that? where should the money from these recources go? to the locals or foreign stock exchanges?

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[nathaniel 0]

Africa has substantial mineral deposits, including niobium and tantalum. These are used for steel production and making electronics, respectively. And blood diamonds, of course, even though those are out of style.

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[nerdgirl 0]

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Can someone explain to me why WE (foreign nations) are obligated to do anything at all for these people? Its not like we dont have problems of our own that could use some attention. Besides, dumping millions of dollars into the aid of a country that gives virtually nothing in return seems sort of senseless to me. Just my opinion.

That's a reasonable question.

The prime motivation is not normative, i.e., it's not an "obligation".

From a defense & national security perspective (others can speak from humanitarian, global public health [altho’ I would argue that can be viewed as a subset of national security], international development, market, etc perspectives), failed states are a threat to the US and allies. The lawlessness of failed states allow terrorists to operate freely. (NB: not every failed state becomes a terrorist sanctuary.)

Listed a few specific citations of radical Islamist groups attempting to exploit the lawlessness of lack of governance and security in African less-than-stable and failing states in this post.

When oceans effectively isolated the US, it wasn’t an issue.

Recognition that preventing failed states and stabilizing failing states is in the US vital interest was also a significant factor behind the November 2005 DoD Directive 3000.05 “Military Support for Stability, Security, Transition, and Reconstruction (SSTR) Operations” and the stand-up of US AFRICOM in October 2007.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[nerdgirl 0]

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It's not quite that simple. It's a foreign concept to grasp (for those who haven't lived there) but the cultural and tribal aspects are to blame here. There's also, or at least was, a belief amongst the populace that birth control was the 'white mans' way of controlling them (special thanks to apartheid for that mindset)

Anyway, my point is that I agree with you both BUT I don't believe it will work for generations to come - there's a LOT of history to overcome.

Concur heartily that the larger questions are far from as simple as some would seem to intimate or assert directly … & it’s far from limited to this thread or this forum. See this post and this post for lengthy discussion of independent and dependent variables for success and failure. Africa is also not a homogenous entity.

On an analytical level, w/r/t to decreasing birth rates, nonetheless, increasing female literacy has been shown to positively correlate (along with positive correlation for increased GDP) across heterogeneous cultures, geographies, economies. How to implement and execute that carries practical and ethical challenges, as you point out.

On that practical level, one only needs to look at the polio eradication in northern Nigeria over the last 4 years to find an example of the kind of difficulties you suggest. Polio re-emerged from Kano in 2003 -- spreading to more than a dozen countries, including one’s which were previously polio free, and halfway around the world in 18 months -- because local clerics were opposed to the vaccine based on unfounded allegations of contaminated vaccines that would lead to sterility, hinder testicular development, and cause AIDs.

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[nigel99 144]

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The situation is fucked up. Meanwhile the vast amount of natural recources are being raped while the locals starve and work (hard)for less then $2 per day.

are the people to blame for that? where should the money from these recources go? to the locals or foreign stock exchanges?

Actually I do believe that in southern africa there is a fair amount of blame that SHOULD rest on the locals shoulders. I am sorry but if you see people in the west prospering and your nation going done the tubes wouldn't you ask yourself why? I am not saying that there are not international issues that distort the situation but I do see a large amount of passing the buck when it comes to impoverished Africans.

The country closest to me (Zimbabwe) is probably the best example. Post 1980 Mugabe implemented educational reforms such that Zimbabwe had one of the highest literacy rates in the world. All the way through to university level qualifications were tied to UK standards. So people were educated and when the crunch came people did one of two things:
1) Use their good qualifications to leave
2) Revert to being morons
(and in some cases both options were taken)


The result is that Zimbabwe is fast joining Somalia and the likes.

I think that one of the cultural traits that is found in highly successful cultures is the willingness and courage to take responsibility for their own actions (US, NZ and Australia are good examples). I deliberately excluded the UK as I see us moving away from this mindset and culture. Africa as a whole seems to lack this and instead 30-60 years on blames colonialism, whereas in the same timeframe Japan, Germany and Israel have come from a WORSE position than any African nation - eventually I believe there comes a time to walk away or step up to the task and simply re-colonise and assume the role of care-taker for failed nations. I was brought up that authority and responsibility are intertwined and you can't effectively separate the 2.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[ErricoMalatesta 0]

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Japan, Germany and Israel have come from a WORSE position than any African nation - eventually I believe there comes a time to walk away or step up to the task and simply re-colonise and assume the role of care-taker for failed nations. I was brought up that authority and responsibility are intertwined and you can't effectively separate the 2.

Japan, Germany and Israel were propped up and developed with billions of US dollars to become clients of the US. That isn't in anyway similar to Africa who are simply left to rot while the raw materials are extracted.

The comparrison doesn't even make sense.

[ErricoMalatesta 0]

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If you have spent any amount of time in Africa? as i have, you will come to realise there is not much of an option for the leaders there, than to continue the corruption. if they do not they will most likely be thrown out on the street and set alight with parafin oil.

Which also isn't the fault of the West. The people have themselves to blame.

Yes its not the fault of the West... oh except that pretty much all the raw material exploitation is by white, western, capitalists.

Yeah except for that aspect... the part where Africa is now the Eastern Europe of the 18/19th century... its the fault of the stupid Africans who just like raping and aids spreading.

I can't believe they can't socially organise to dismantle and reconstruct their societies. They have had every opportunity from being born into extreme poverty to growing up in forced labour camps.

It is not the fault of Lazare Kaplan International and others.

[Trent 0]

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Yes its not the fault of the West... oh except that pretty much all the raw material exploitation is by white, western, capitalists.

I think a lot of the indignant rage, if you're so inclined as to blame everyone BUT the people themselves, should now be directed towards CHINA, who is snapping up resources in Africa faster than anyone else. Hey, if they have to make deals or pay off the same people who machete entire villages, so what?? As long as they're not the "West" or "White" or "American", they should get a pass. Let's just blame the US, it's more fun.

Oh, hello again!

[Royd 0]

You cant FORCE people

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I never said you could. However, if we provide free birth control in the same way we provide free food and medicine, a lot of people will elect it.

Put the birth control in the free food and medicine.

[rhys 0]

Going back to the OP.

Cell phones(essential minerals used in electronics), diamonds(and other precious stones), copper, tourism and Human life from the very beginning are all things africa gives the rest of the world.

the title to this thread is really incorrect.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[ErricoMalatesta 0]

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Yes its not the fault of the West... oh except that pretty much all the raw material exploitation is by white, western, capitalists.

I think a lot of the indignant rage, if you're so inclined as to blame everyone BUT the people themselves, should now be directed towards CHINA, who is snapping up resources in Africa faster than anyone else. Hey, if they have to make deals or pay off the same people who machete entire villages, so what?? As long as they're not the "West" or "White" or "American", they should get a pass. Let's just blame the US, it's more fun.

The people themselves aren't to blame. I have already agreed in some regions there are disgusting cultural phenomena but that isn't an all over Africa problem.

Secondly the investment by China is a relatively new phenomenon and just as bad if not worse because China are a lot less unbendable to global public outcry.

Thirdly I didn't say American investment in Africa I said Western investment. Which spans back decades and is a historically larger issue than Chinese investment, at the moment, but changing rapidly.

Fourthly capital is capital and it is the root problem of Africa (and everywhere). In the end it doesn't matter if its black Africans, China, Switzerland, etc. The problem is not that Africans are all sub-human aids spreading idiots as the article politely spells out but that their natural resources are taken and the easiest way to do this is to ensure that the societies remain devastated.

Fifthly you are right and I am wrong and guilty of broad brushing just like the original article. "pretty much all" should be changed to " the majority of... with China no doubt over taking in the next ten years".

[SpeedRacer 1]

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Fourthly capital is capital and it is the root problem of Africa

OK, then we'd better not send any over there, or invest in anything there.

Speed Racer
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[billvon 2,400]

>Fourthly capital is capital and it is the root problem of Africa (and everywhere).

Exactly. If people over there just had less money, then they'd be much better off.

[1969912 0]

How 'bout Penis Thieves:

".....an epidemic of penis theft swept Nigeria between 1975 and 1977. Then there seemed to be a lull until 1990, when the stealing resurged. “Men could be seen in the streets of Lagos holding on to their genitalia either openly or discreetly with their hand in their pockets,”.... In a typical incident, someone would suddenly yell: Thief! My genitals are gone! Then a culprit would be identified, apprehended, and, often, killed"

http://harpers.org/archive/2008/06/0082063

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[nigel99 144]

Hi Rhys,

I didn't make up the title it was the headline of the newspaper article that I cut and paste.

And I do agree that diamonds, platinum, copper and tourism are all assets that Africa has BUT I don't agree with the theory that it is the wests fault that Africa mismanages its own resources (not that you stated this)

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[tbrown 26]

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Birth control?

Your assumption is base on you're being an American woman who is (so far) free to choose. Women in Africa have no choice. Even if you could get your hands on a condom, you'd never get hubby to wear one. A few beatings would clear that silly notion from your head. I mean seriously, the pill has been around now for HOW many years ? 46 years at least ? We can't even agree on high schools giving them out here in America, let alone some backwater bailiwick where every home is ruled at the point of an AK-47. These guys won't even wear a condom with a hooker, so nobody's going to make them wear one with the wife. And so the poor woman gets HIV and passes it along to any child in her womb or on her breast.

Hate to say it, but I have to agree with the OP's basic premise.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[Nightingale 0]

I was thinking more along the lines of depo. It won't do anything about AIDS, but it will do something about unplanned pregnancy.