georgerussia 0 #226 June 26, 2008 Quote The OT was also full of love, understanding, wisdom, mercy, and promise. The Pharisees falied to see just that. Everyone is judged by the combination of their actions, not just a subset. We know about the priests who fucked the children once a while, and did some good things the rest of the time. We however still consider them criminals, and punish thed. And the fact they also did some good things didn't change that. Same with your biblical God. Quote Everything has been done so that we might learn righteousness, and to this day we still have not. What has been done looks like a huge mess. The Bible, which was "created" as the most important guidance for righteouness, was a catastrophic failure. It is so ambiguous and misguiding that even Christians themselves cannot agree on a single Bible interpretation - and they tend to disagree on rather important things, which are critical for salvation. Thus the only available "evidence" does not pass any credibility tests - in fact even imperfect humans create much better guidelines than the one allegedly created by your perfect God! Quote So rather than destroy us all, he gives us one last chance to learn righteousness by sending his own righteousness to teach us. Since - according to you - the God created us all, and this includes our ability to learn things, he should blame himself for that. For example, if I create a program to play chess, and it does not, that's me - the creator - to blame. Not the computer which carefully executes the program I created. Thus your whole "last chance to learn" does not make any sense at all. If your God wanted people righteous, why don't he created them this way that everyone is born righteous? Should not be difficult for omnipotent creature.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #227 June 26, 2008 Quote If God isnt mercy and Love then we all have something to lose dont we? I fail to see your logic here. How the god could be love? Could he also be liquid, heavy, solvable? Could he be weeping, peeing, peeking, or jerking off? Quote Yet mercy and love are the very things he expressed through Christ. When we believe in this grace it empowers our spirit and brings life to our soul. This is kinda stupid assumption that the majority of people on this Earth have problem with mercy and love just because they don't give shit about Jesus.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,672 #228 June 26, 2008 QuoteQuote Yes your right...in the old testament, but in the new testament, he relents and saves with his own blood. You know, in the Old Testament, God was full of Wroth and Vengeance. You did bad stuff, he rained brimstone down on your ungrateful ass or harrassed your people with 7 plagues. In the New Testament, its like he has turned over a new leaf, you don't hear some much of the nasty things he did to his people (because if you believe in it, everyone on earth is his creation) You know what happened around the time between the New Testament and the Old Testament? He got laid. (c) bash.org Yeah, a change of personality is kinda strange for an OMNIPRESENT being.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maadmax 0 #229 June 27, 2008 Because there is lots that we don't understand does not mean there is a god. You use faulty logic to arrive at your conclusion*** Maybe, but magnitude of the existing universe and all of the supporting physical laws coupled with the fact we don't know how any of it got here, should at least consider extra-dimensional contribution equally with spontaneous origins. Logically it would seem both avenues should be thoroughly pursued. _______________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maadmax 0 #230 June 27, 2008 --So let's make it clear - did they have Jesus present on this AA meeting*** Yes, " If two or more are gathered in my name I will be there." _______________________________________ --How could they confirm that "his life has been transformed by a personal relationship with Jesus"*** You can talk to them like I did and listen to their testimonies. But if you do please be respectful. _______________________________________ -- not just by the fact that he understood the drinking problem - as he was present on AA meeting*** Well, if you ever talk to any of them or go to a meeting you will see that they were helpless to stop. _______________________________________ --Don't forget also that clinical studies showed that prayer had no effect on post-surgery patients - i.e. the Christian patients who prayed did not heal better or faster than non-Christians who didn't. How would you explain this*** I have done my own study on prayer and I can tell you it works just fine. It has been a major source of comfort and has provided answers to desperate situations. And it has not failed me yet!!!!! ______________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maadmax 0 #231 June 27, 2008 You know, in the Old Testament, God was full of Wroth and Vengeance. You did bad stuff, he rained brimstone down on your ungrateful ass or harrassed your people with 7 plagues. In the New Testament, its like he has turned over a new leaf, you don't hear some much of the nasty things he did to his people (because if you believe in it, everyone on earth is his creation) You know what happened around the time between the New Testament and the Old Testament? He got laid.*** It seem pretty obvious that your conception of God does not line up with the reality of God. There are no contradictions in the God that I know. _______________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #232 June 27, 2008 QuoteIt seem pretty obvious that your conception of God does not line up with the reality of God The reality of god? That's right up there with: Jumbo shrimp Military intelligence Sweet and sour Saying nothing Sugarless candy Etc Oxy... oxy.... emmm Oxymoron?Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rynodigsmusic 0 #233 June 27, 2008 QuoteQuote The OT was also full of love, understanding, wisdom, mercy, and promise. The Pharisees falied to see just that. Everyone is judged by the combination of their actions, not just a subset. We know about the priests who fucked the children once a while, and did some good things the rest of the time. We however still consider them criminals, and punish thed. And the fact they also did some good things didn't change that. Same with your biblical God.Quote >>>>I really am sorry that evil in man seems to be so...well...evil sometimes, and I am even more sorry that it has manifested in preists raping children, its just horrible, horrible. But God doesnt change, his heart is the same. What changed was his convenant with man, the way he aparently learned from us while knowing all along what would happen. Its a beautiful thing to surrender to a miracle. If life is a miracle, as I believe it is, then we know that every single moment in life is a miracle, not just in the ones we witness, but in the miracle of the moments that we dont see as miracles as well. God is not a only a miracle worker, he is a miracle himself. That is why he is so unbelievable to people. Quote Everything has been done so that we might learn righteousness, and to this day we still have not. What has been done looks like a huge mess. The Bible, which was "created" as the most important guidance for righteouness, was a catastrophic failure. It is so ambiguous and misguiding that even Christians themselves cannot agree on a single Bible interpretation - and they tend to disagree on rather important things, which are critical for salvation. Thus the only available "evidence" does not pass any credibility tests - in fact even imperfect humans create much better guidelines than the one allegedly created by your perfect God!Quote >>>>I am always curious to hear these guidelines you are talking about. I always try to take wisdom that is found and bump it agains the Gospel. These guidelines you are speaking of, would they be righteous by nature by any chance? Dont you find it a bit curious that true wisdom seems to have a "good" tone to it??? Quote So rather than destroy us all, he gives us one last chance to learn righteousness by sending his own righteousness to teach us. Since - according to you - the God created us all, and this includes our ability to learn things, he should blame himself for that. For example, if I create a program to play chess, and it does not, that's me - the creator - to blame. Not the computer which carefully executes the program I created. Thus your whole "last chance to learn" does not make any sense at all. If your God wanted people righteous, why don't he created them this way that everyone is born righteous? Should not be difficult for omnipotent creature. >>>>That is a good question. You have to be born of righteousness, meaning, it must be understood and learned. God is the only righteousness in the entire realm of wisdom, which encompases all that is all. What is born of him is born of righteousness. Love is the key to understanding righteousness. With the little amount that he gives us here through faith, we learn, but with the full amount of grace that he has promised us, we will become. The bible teaches us that we are becoming Gods righteousness, not just that we are learning from it. Righteousness by nature could never be found without wickedness, Grace could never be found without sin, Heaven could never be revealed without the earth. Gods plan, as he describes in the bible is to establish a new heaven and a new earth as a home of righteousness. Imagine, if everyone is righteous as God in the next life, what he would teach us then, and indeed, what we would become....or dont...Righteousness is a gift, either you want to receive it or you dont. But if you dont, what then will your excuse be? Try to understand it this way. Just because someone knows what is right does not mean they will do what is right. It is when someone does what is right that puts them on the path to righteousness. When they desire with all thier hearts to do what is right they no longer need to learn, they have become. Since none of us are righteous, we can only desire it with all our hearts...it is the desire that is filled by Gods spirit and grace that allows us to persevere and stay on the path. What happens when we get a desire fulfilled? Fills good doesnt it? A desire to please God is no differnt, yet the reward most certainly is. Faith pleases God immensely and life is the reward for that pleasure, because it pleases God to please his children."We didn't start the fire" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites shaark 0 #234 June 27, 2008 Maybe, but magnitude of the existing universe and all of the supporting physical laws coupled with the fact we don't know how any of it got here, should at least consider extra-dimensional contribution equally with spontaneous origins. Logically it would seem both avenues should be thoroughly pursued. _____________________________________________________________________________ Big bang, or any other theory, we are still left with the basic choice of spontaneous creation of the universe out of nothing, or creation caused by a 'god'. Our present science can describe some cases of spontaneous creation, e.g. pair-pair production, followed by instantaneous annihilation. But quantum uncertainty should occasionally allow some particles to escape annihilation and remain in normal space-time. This possible trickle of matter/energy might be the fuel for the increase in the rate of expansion of the universe, though I imagine the amount of energy needed should be so large as to be observationally apparent, which so far it isn't. Of course dark energy escapes our observation also. We have a lot to learn. The admirable thing is that human science allows for an ever increasing understanding of the remarkable construct that is our universe. Conversely we can postulate a 'god'. Now we have a problem. We are human. All our gods are anthropomorphic. They really cannot be anything else. Yet, by definition, a god should be unknowable. When humans presuppose a god, so often this necessitates 'religion'. All religions define their god, generally limiting the scope of any further exploration. Pretty much all the gods of our human folklore are suspect. We imbue our gods with human emotions. We describe them in human terms. We have them intimately interacting with us. We insist that they are concerned about us. We demand that they love us. We presume to know what they want of us. We honour ourselves that they should want something of us. We describe their realms as if we have first hand knowledge of such. We invite ourselves into their presence, into their supernatural world. I personally find all of the above a bit of a stretch. We should maybe ask ourselves not is there a god, but WHY is there a god? If we can come up with some logical answers maybe we can better tackle the question IS there a god? (If we can keep religion out of this endeavour so much the better.) Logic, of course, is suspect, as it is a human trait, and a god is not human, by definition. I kind of like the concept of the world turtle, carrying the earth on it's back. And you may ask: but on what does it stand? On mud, of course. And if you ask on what does the mud rest ------- Why, it's mud all the way down! tanstaafl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #235 June 27, 2008 Quote Quote So let's make it clear - did they have Jesus present on this AA meeting Yes, " If two or more are gathered in my name I will be there." You missed my question. I didn't ask whether Jesus promised to be there. I asked whether he was there. Did anyone see him and could confirm it? Quote You can talk to them like I did and listen to their testimonies. But if you do please be respectful. We already established that if someone prayed Jesus and healed, you Christians say it as a proof Jesus exists. But if someone prayed Jesus and died, you Christians say he was "putting God into test", and should not expect anything. Which makes the testimony useless. Basically all they could really testify is that they prayed Jesus, and recovered from alcoholism. I could testify that I jumped out of the airplane at 14K, prayed Odin, and was safely on the ground in five minutes. Neither example proves the existense of Jesus or Odin. Quote Well, if you ever talk to any of them or go to a meeting you will see that they were helpless to stop. As far as I remember, the most difficult thing and the most important step for any substance abuser is to admit it. After that, when a person understands they have a problem, and ready to put some efforts to fix it (otherwise they wouldn't be present on AA meeting), they do not need any Jesus to help them. Quote I have done my own study on prayer and I can tell you it works just fine. Unfortunately your own study is very limited in terms of applicability.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #236 June 27, 2008 Quote I really am sorry that evil in man seems to be so...well...evil sometimes, and I am even more sorry that it has manifested in preists raping children, its just horrible, horrible. Why should you be sorry? That's the way your God created the people. And he's obviously fine with this, and he does not punish anyone. Quote But God doesnt change, his heart is the same. What changed was his convenant with man, the way he aparently learned from us while knowing all along what would happen. There is something really wrong with your logic. An omniscient creature CANNOT learn anything. It already knows everything by definition. Quote I am always curious to hear these guidelines you are talking about. Just take a look on driver handbook of your state. It is much, much less ambiguous than your Bible. Quote These guidelines you are speaking of, would they be righteous by nature by any chance? Dont you find it a bit curious that true wisdom seems to have a "good" tone to it??? There is no "truly righteous thing" in this world, because there is no definition of such thing everyone would agree. Quote That is a good question. You have to be born of righteousness, meaning, it must be understood and learned. Not at all. Either I was created righteous (and this way I was born righteous), or I was not created righteous (and this way the God shouldn't blame me). Quote The bible teaches us that we are becoming Gods righteousness, not just that we are learning from it. Then the bible is wrong. Quote Gods plan, as he describes in the bible is to establish a new heaven and a new earth as a home of righteousness. Imagine, if everyone is righteous as God in the next life, what he would teach us then, and indeed, what we would become....or dont... The God does not need a plan. If he's omnipotent, and he controls everything, he does not need to wait until "next life". He could change whatever he wants right now. Moreover, since the God is omniscient, he already knew long time ago what exactly would have happened, and that his current plan would not work.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #237 June 27, 2008 Quote Because there is lots that we don't understand does not mean there is a god. You use faulty logic to arrive at your conclusion*** Maybe, but magnitude of the existing universe and all of the supporting physical laws coupled with the fact we don't know how any of it got here, should at least consider extra-dimensional contribution equally with spontaneous origins. Logically it would seem both avenues should be thoroughly pursued. _______________________________________ It's kind of tough to pursue both avenues when one has evidence and the other has none. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rynodigsmusic 0 #238 June 27, 2008 Why should you be sorry? That's the way your God created the people. And he's obviously fine with this, and he does not punish anyone.Quote >>>>I dont think I would jump to that conclusion so fast. There is something really wrong with your logic. An omniscient creature CANNOT learn anything. It already knows everything by definition.Quote >>>>Thats why God is a miracle. How are we as mere humans going to contenplate the thoughts and ways of God? Quote There is no "truly righteous thing" in this world, because there is no definition of such thing everyone would agree. >>>>Agreed. Although I believe that Jesus revealed it in spirit, and therefore if you are in the spirit of Gods love, righteousness will be taught and followed. I can testify that following righteousness feels good, but I am not righteous in Gods sight without Jesus, so then, I am not righteous at all. Righteousness is a path to follow, and its revelations are unexplainable to those not on it. Quote Not at all. Either I was created righteous (and this way I was born righteous), or I was not created righteous (and this way the God shouldn't blame me). >>>>Im afraid there is much about God you dont understand even as it is revealed in the scriptures. God knows us deeper than we know ourselves. He knows our hearts and minds...he knows how rebellious and treacherous we are, he does not blame us, he is just and fair and judges us the way we judge ourselves and others. Judgment came on the world through Christ. Guess what? Everyone is guilty, and no one is good. That is why he sent Jesus so that even still we might be saved from the torment and condemnation of sin. Only those who live by the truth will see their guilt in sin. It is not God who blames us, but us who blame God, and as long as we continue to blame him, we will never see the truth and find mercy in his judgment. Quote The bible teaches us that we are becoming Gods righteousness, not just that we are learning from it. Then the bible is wrong.Quote >>>>Its easy to say that, but we see its principles ring true in everyday life. If you teach a child something, does that mean he is going to do it? No, becasue he may not understand why you are telling him somehting. So, he does what he wants and learns the "hard way". After learning the hard way, he understands why and therefore becomes if he is obedient to his own understanding that is. The taught has become the teacher, and his very desire is to continue to be obedient so that he doesnt slip into the hardness of making the wrong descioion again. Quote The God does not need a plan. If he's omnipotent, and he controls everything, he does not need to wait until "next life". He could change whatever he wants right now. Moreover, since the God is omniscient, he already knew long time ago what exactly would have happened, and that his current plan would not work. >>>>You are also at a door. You wont be able to understand if you dont believe."We didn't start the fire" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites maadmax 0 #239 June 27, 2008 We should maybe ask ourselves not is there a god, but WHY is there a god? If we can come up with some logical answers maybe we can better tackle the question IS there a god? (If we can keep religion out of this endeavour so much the better.) Logic, of course, is suspect, as it is a human trait, and a god is not human, by definition.*** Very good post. Since the unknowable is, well, unknowable I don't worry much about it. I concern myself with that which I can grasp. Like all the major life issues : existence, purpose, good, evil, maximizing pleasure, minimizing pain etc. From there I seek a unifying theory that will make sense out of all of it. Luckily for me God has made the answers available, often through unique and paradoxical ways. ________________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #240 June 27, 2008 Quote I dont think I would jump to that conclusion so fast. But it's obvious conclusion. If your God did not want gays or pedophiles, he'd create the people in the way they wouldn't even think about that. Since he didn't, the logical assumption is he wanted them to do so, or at least accepted it. Quote Thats why God is a miracle. How are we as mere humans going to contenplate the thoughts and ways of God? Well, I challenge the way YOU describe your God from the bible, not the "real God". If YOU say that the God is omnipotent and omniscient - you're saying that the God cannot learn anything, since he already knows everything by definition of omniscient. If you say the God is NOT omnipotent and omniscient (so far no one said that), then we'll get other questions to ask. As you see, your problem starts even with your definition of God. Quote Agreed. Although I believe that Jesus revealed it in spirit, and therefore if you are in the spirit of Gods love, righteousness will be taught and followed. I can testify that following righteousness feels good, but I am not righteous in Gods sight without Jesus, so then, I am not righteous at all. Righteousness is a path to follow, and its revelations are unexplainable to those not on it. Your beliefs do not matter in terms of applicability. And your testimony is not valid, since you have no proof you're following righteousness - and therefore you're making a conclusion in your testimony. All you could testify is that you do something, and it feels good; same might be applicable as well to other things. Quote Im afraid there is much about God you dont understand even as it is revealed in the scriptures. Again, I'm challenging your definitions, not the "real God" (who works in misterious ways, and therefore it is not possible to understand him at all). With your definition it's simple - either we were created perfect (and therefore should be), or we were not (and therefore God should blame himself). Quote Guess what? Everyone is guilty, and no one is good. That is why he sent Jesus so that even still we might be saved from the torment and condemnation of sin. First, I'd like to make it clear I'm good and I'm not guilty. If you don't think you are, it's your problem. Don't make it everyone's problem. The whole "sent Jesus" thing sounds like absolute bullshit if you consider the God omnipotent. If he wanted any change, being omnipotent he could implement the change right away, the same second. Why would he need to send anyone and wait? If you're supporting the Jesus thing, you're supporting the fact that your God is not omnipotent, and there are some higher rules he has to obey to make things happen. Then the next question would be, who could set up rules your God needs to follow? Quote Its easy to say that, but we see its principles ring true in everyday life. The principles in driver handbook prove to be true for everyone who's driving a car. Does it mean that the driver handbook is full of righteoness, and should be used as a guide to live ethernal life (or even to skydive)? Quote You are also at a door. You wont be able to understand if you dont believe. So you finally agreed that there is no God unless you believe in it? Voila!!!* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rynodigsmusic 0 #241 June 27, 2008 QuoteQuote I dont think I would jump to that conclusion so fast. But it's obvious conclusion. If your God did not want gays or pedophiles, he'd create the people in the way they wouldn't even think about that. Since he didn't, the logical assumption is he wanted them to do so, or at least accepted it.Quote >>>>Or he would make us choose?? Which is what love is all about. It wants to be desired and chosen over other desires. If it is chosen, then love is always first and over everything. There is a difference between living in the world and being of the world. Those who follw righteousness do so first. The more you desire and follow righteousness, the more it is filled within you and the sweeter life tastes. But it is a choice, as it would lack power any other way. That choice is made much much easier when the Holy Spirit is given through repentance. Most who taste goodness and purity feel "high" and they never want to come down. Quote Thats why God is a miracle. How are we as mere humans going to contenplate the thoughts and ways of God? Well, I challenge the way YOU describe your God from the bible, not the "real God". If YOU say that the God is omnipotent and omniscient - you're saying that the God cannot learn anything, since he already knows everything by definition of omniscient. If you say the God is NOT omnipotent and omniscient (so far no one said that), then we'll get other questions to ask. As you see, your problem starts even with your definition of God. Quote >>>>Im saying that it is possible that we dont understand anything about his ways, so how could it be so far off to say that he knows and learns in the same miraculous moment? What we understand is what his righteousness teaches us. I believe his righteousness is Jesus, so I follow him. His power is beyond our comprehension, literally. He is God. He does have the power to orchestrate a plan while knowing the outcome but still learning at the same time does he not? We only know our concept of time, we dont know the concept of eternity and how it operates. It is possible that God has manifested these moments even the billions and billions of all moments into no moment at all in the realm of eternity. The moment in between a miracle and reality is still a miracle. Your beliefs do not matter in terms of applicability. And your testimony is not valid, since you have no proof you're following righteousness - Quote >>>>To follow righteousness means to desire it. There is no proof that I follow Jesus, except in where my desire is. Where we put our desire shows by our actions. We are all weak, and we all stumble into sin. It is persevering that fills our desire to leave sin altogether. Similar to if you have hope and die with hope in your heart, then nothing else mattered did it? God has revealed that remorse is what recieving grace is all about, deep remorse. Grace sustains us, when we fall into sin, its remorse that grace finds again. And the very nature of grace is that it loves to forgive and be merciful, so as long as there is remorse in our hearts, grace can come in. Quote Im afraid there is much about God you dont understand even as it is revealed in the scriptures. Again, I'm challenging your definitions, not the "real God" (who works in misterious ways, and therefore it is not possible to understand him at all). With your definition it's simple - either we were created perfect (and therefore should be), or we were not (and therefore God should blame himself).Quote >>>>Maybe he did create us perfect, but part of being perfect is choosing the right thing all the time. Maybe the choices we make that we blame God for are actually really only choices that we make? Understanding our failures is part of learning humbleness and will unite even the most unlikely people. Shoot, thats what many support groups are all about. Quote Guess what? Everyone is guilty, and no one is good. That is why he sent Jesus so that even still we might be saved from the torment and condemnation of sin. First, I'd like to make it clear I'm good and I'm not guilty. If you don't think you are, it's your problem. Don't make it everyone's problem.Quote >>>>It must be nice to enjoy a lie...not too trustworthy though unfortunatley. You sound like a pharisee in Jesus' time. Even if you did believe he is the Son of God, you would have a hard time with the truth of your guilt, as they did. QuoteThe whole "sent Jesus" thing sounds like absolute bullshit if you consider the God omnipotent. If he wanted any change, being omnipotent he could implement the change right away, the same second. Why would he need to send anyone and wait? >>>>He sent himself, that is what is so miraculous, wonderous, and amazing. He sent himself to do what no other could do, to give us a message no other knew. It is exciting just to think about how amazing God is, how the heart of such a love pours out of the wind, the trees, the ocean, the mountains, the sky. >>>>It must be somewhat exhausting to never surrender. All we do is surrender to his love, mercy, understanding, comfort, joy. Seems a little strange that anyone would continue to lose peace because of resistance and rebellion, but hey, I did that for years. You are actually holding yourself in contempt, there is mercy for you though, ready and waiting whenever you want it. And there is much freedom in that mercy. Quote Its easy to say that, but we see its principles ring true in everyday life. The principles in driver handbook prove to be true for everyone who's driving a car. Does it mean that the driver handbook is full of righteoness, and should be used as a guide to live ethernal life (or even to skydive)?Quote >>>>Goodness sakes George! LOL! I didnt know I was learning the ways of righteousness by using my turn signal and buckling my seatbelt! Quote You are also at a door. You wont be able to understand if you dont believe. So you finally agreed that there is no God unless you believe in it? Voila!!! >>>>Just because a man is blind, does not mean he cannot see., he just doesnt see with his eyes. Just because God is invisible, does not mean he is not there. He reveals himself in the heart and that is what pours out thorugh the eyes. So that we can see with the eyes of Heaven."We didn't start the fire" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites labrys 0 #242 June 28, 2008 QuoteBut it's obvious conclusion. If your God did not want gays or pedophiles, he'd create the people in the way they wouldn't even think about that. Oh (pun intended) jesus christ. Please stop lumping gays and pedophiles together. I'm gay. I've never had sex with anyone under the age of 18 (well... at least I haven't since I was over the age of 18) I've never known another gay person who would consider sexual predation of children in any way acceptable. I've never met another gay person who wouldn't drop a dime if they thought a child was being molested. I've never met another gay person who wouldn't step in to intercede while they waited for the dime they dropped to be noticed.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #243 June 28, 2008 Quote Oh (pun intended) jesus christ. Please stop lumping gays and pedophiles together. Relax, dude. This is just an example.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #244 June 28, 2008 Quote Or he would make us choose?? This ends up with the same dilemma - if the God does not want pedophiles, why would he created the people the way that some of them could make this choice? [irrelevant stuff about love skipped] Quote Im saying that it is possible that we dont understand anything about his ways, so how could it be so far off to say that he knows and learns in the same miraculous moment? You missing the point again. We're not talking about the real God; we're talking about the God you believe in. Do you believe the God is omnipotent and omniscient? Quote Maybe he did create us perfect, but part of being perfect is choosing the right thing all the time. Maybe the choices we make that we blame God for are actually really only choices that we make? If we were created perfect, we'd only be able to make right choices. The only difference between a priest and a thief created by God is the choice they make. Quote It must be nice to enjoy a lie...not too trustworthy though unfortunatley. It's not a lie. I'm 100% sure that I'm good, and I do not feel guilty. I'm sure even more than you're sure you following Jesus. Quote He sent himself, that is what is so miraculous, wonderous, and amazing. He sent himself to do what no other could do, to give us a message no other knew. The only emotion I experience is bewilderment. This is probably the weirdest possible thing to fix problems with your creation. Quote Goodness sakes George! LOL! I didnt know I was learning the ways of righteousness by using my turn signal and buckling my seatbelt! You now have my word. And if you donate me $100, you'll be in heaven. Quote Just because a man is blind, does not mean he cannot see., he just doesnt see with his eyes. Just because God is invisible, does not mean he is not there. How'd you know the God is invisible?* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rynodigsmusic 0 #245 June 28, 2008 This ends up with the same dilemma - if the God does not want pedophiles, why would he created the people the way that some of them could make this choice? Quote You missing the point again. We're not talking about the real God; we're talking about the God you believe in. Do you believe the God is omnipotent and omniscient? I had to look those words up. I have heard them before several times, but didnt quite know what they meant. I guess they are interesting definitions so that people can put a grasp on God. Me personally, I believe that is a good definition, but thats about it. I like to imagine God as the supreme miracle, the actual spirit of Life. Existing with the power of a miracle in every miraculous moment. Power beyond Power, the absolute birth of Power...see, you cant really define him, he reveals himself and his beautiful qualities to our hearts. I could try and define him to you, but I dont think you would understand...as words would never be able to. The closest I can get is the human definition of Love, to the very depth of what it reveals. Love seems to be the only thing that I can define him with in some way. Love is empowering on sooooooo many levels.Quote If we were created perfect, we'd only be able to make right choices. The only difference between a priest and a thief created by God is the choice they make. No, that is what you think perfection is. Maybe it is that we would only choose the right choices? The bible talks a bit about perfection. Jesus calls us to be perfect as God is perfect and James says again that a perfect man is one whos words do not condemn him. That is, judgment against another for the things you yourself are guilty for. False testimony ect... I believe that Jesus is the perfect example of perfect love, and so I follow him with all my heart. Why would God give us an example of anything else? He knows we wont attain it here, but, he knows the life we find and feel as we desire to attain it is just what we want. We all fail, and none of us are perfect like God, that is why we need him.Quote It's not a lie. I'm 100% sure that I'm good, and I do not feel guilty. I'm sure even more than you're sure you following Jesus. Ok, one thing the pharisees could not see is there own guilt. Guilt remains because we truly cannot see it. If you feel guilty about something, you know its there, but there is a guilt that stains the soul, that after time gets hidden but doesnt go away. This invisible guilt will find blame and bitterness, the two greatest ememys of peace. Guilt hides, just like blame and just like bitterness. Its why people need physcologists these days and they go back to old childhood memories ect... Or why some people NEVER SEE their own fault within destruction of a relationship. Both sides carry blame for the other, but fail to see their own. Truth is about seeing your fault, blame, and guilt, and it is the beginning of peace. Jesus says the truth will set you free, and I can testify to its power and peace. It literally is when the Lie meets the Truth.Quote Quote Goodness sakes George! LOL! I didnt know I was learning the ways of righteousness by using my turn signal and buckling my seatbelt! You now have my word. And if you donate me $100, you'll be in heaven. Quote LOL! How'd you know the God is invisible? Because I cannot see him with my eyes, I see him with my heart, and that, allows me to see him in everything. It is similar to when someone comes into the room and you just know something is wrong, but you dont know what it is unless it is revealed to you. Or even worse, when you dont know something is wrong and it is later revealed to you that there is. Just because you didnt see it, doesnt mean it wasnt there."We didn't start the fire" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,271 #246 July 1, 2008 QuoteYou'll have to take that up with Pascal. I didn't make the wager. Hey, Pascal! Your wager really sucks.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #247 July 2, 2008 Quote I had to look those words up. I have heard them before several times, but didnt quite know what they meant. It's strange because those are the words Christians use themselves. Quote I guess they are interesting definitions so that people can put a grasp on God. Me personally, I believe that is a good definition, but thats about it. I like to imagine God as the supreme miracle, the actual spirit of Life. Existing with the power of a miracle in every miraculous moment. Power beyond Power, the absolute birth of Power...see, you cant really define him, he reveals himself and his beautiful qualities to our hearts. I could try and define him to you, but I dont think you would understand...as words would never be able to. Looks like you're confusing the definition with what you like to imagine. This will not work, as you cannot base definition on your personal subjective feelings. Let me ask you a couple of simple questions: - Do you believe the God is omnipotent in terms that there is nothing the God cannot do? - Do you believe the God is omniscient in terms that the God knows everything (including what everyone did, what everyone is doing and what everyone will be doing tomorrow)? If possible, please give a short answer. Yes/no would be perfect. No sermons here please. Quote The closest I can get is the human definition of Love, to the very depth of what it reveals. Love seems to be the only thing that I can define him with in some way. Love is empowering on sooooooo many levels. Then your definition makes little sense if you tell people to follow God just because it "empowering and feels good". And it makes even less sense if you tell the people the God wants them to follow Jesus or they'll go to Hell. Quote No, that is what you think perfection is. Maybe it is that we would only choose the right choices? Yes. Look at your Jesus - has he ever made a wrong choice? According to you that's what you're trying to follow! Quote The bible talks a bit about perfection. Jesus calls us to be perfect as God is perfect and James says again that a perfect man is one whos words do not condemn him. I don't give shit what James said. He's not God nor son of the God, why should anyone ever listen to him? You'd better listen to your local minister - at least you could make sure his words were quoted properly. Quote That is, judgment against another for the things you yourself are guilty for. False testimony ect... I believe that Jesus is the perfect example of perfect love, and so I follow him with all my heart. Why would God give us an example of anything else? So you didn't answer the question - if your God wanted us to be perfect, why he didn't create us perfect? The God is obviously capable of creating perfect humans; why didn't he? Quote Ok, one thing the pharisees could not see is there own guilt. Guilt remains because we truly cannot see it. If you feel guilty about something, you know its there, but there is a guilt that stains the soul, that after time gets hidden but doesnt go away. This invisible guilt will find blame and bitterness, the two greatest ememys of peace. Guilt hides, just like blame and just like bitterness. Its why people need physcologists these days and they go back to old childhood memories ect... Well, I'm not pharisee, I don't suffer from invisible guilt, and I don't need a shrink. Could you please be more specific in your replies, and make it more relevant to the original quote? Quote Or why some people NEVER SEE their own fault within destruction of a relationship. it seems to be very America-specific things. It's not only in relationships - a lot of people here seem to generally blame everyone else for their own acts of stupidity. Just turn on your radio, and in 30 minutes you'll hear from another stupid idiot who wants to ban the school sport competitions because "his kids did not qualify to the sport team", or that the government should pay off his mortgage because "he signed the loan application without reading it". So far I have never seen anything like that in other few countries I lived and worked. And from history classes I know for sure it wasn't like that all the time; seems to be pretty recent innovation. Quote Both sides carry blame for the other, but fail to see their own. Truth is about seeing your fault, blame, and guilt, and it is the beginning of peace. Seeing your fault and admitting your mistakes is completely different from feeling guilty. The first is a requirement for improverment, and the second leads to depression. Believe me, one does not need to follow Jesus to become a better skydiver - but the ability to accept constructive critique is necessary. Quote Because I cannot see him with my eyes, I see him with my heart, and that, allows me to see him in everything. The heart cannot see anything, it's a blood pump. Any graduate with high school diploma should know that. So when you're talking about "seeing someone with your heart", you're talking nonsense. Could you please explain? Quote Just because you didnt see it, doesnt mean it wasnt there. So you believe in Zeus, Odin and so on? Just because you didnt see it, doesnt mean they aren't there, right?* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,672 #248 July 2, 2008 Quote Just because you didnt see it, doesnt mean it wasnt there. Quote-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So you believe in Zeus, Odin and so on? Just because you didnt see it, doesnt mean they aren't there, right? A quick archive search shows that various versions of that question have been asked dozens of times, and always you get an evasive answer or no answer at all. The reason is obvious - there is no more evidence in support the judeo-christian god than there is for the Flying Spaghetti Monster.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #249 July 2, 2008 But but you have to believe in Zues and repent before him before you can see the light and reap the benefits! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rynodigsmusic 0 #250 July 2, 2008 It's strange because those are the words Christians use themselves. >>>>God Is, take that for however you like. Explore love a little deeper and you may or may not understand. But try telling the couple in love that love is not alive, that it is just an emotion, that its not empowering...that it doesnt have the power to unlock the deepest most poetic parts of the heart. Explore love, but beware, love is something you have to let in, before you can even begin to understand its power over you. Quote Looks like you're confusing the definition with what you like to imagine. This will not work, as you cannot base definition on your personal subjective feelings.Quote >>>>Asking me what God is, is just like asking me what love is. Dont you understand that artists have been trying to capture and frame the power of love since the beginning of time??? Love only gives us moments and brief touches of its power, but power it is and it is what we let in...what we believe. Asking me what God is, is like asking me to tell you how much you love your children, I could never understand that. Asking me what God is, is like asking me what life is, like asking me to explain to you, a non believer, what a miracle is. My imagination was a gift of the Holy Spirit, a tool to seek to understand God more fully, in ways that are sacred to me. God reveals we are children and when he reveals himself to his children, his children learn greater and greater things about their Father. That is, a relationship grows from "infancy" to "maturity". In the realm of eternity, I am barely born and look forward to the deeper revelations in Christ. Quote The closest I can get is the human definition of Love, to the very depth of what it reveals. Love seems to be the only thing that I can define him with in some way. Love is empowering on sooooooo many levels. Then your definition makes little sense if you tell people to follow God just because it "empowering and feels good". And it makes even less sense if you tell the people the God wants them to follow Jesus or they'll go to Hell. Quote >>>>"Since what is known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them" QuoteNo, that is what you think perfection is. Maybe it is that we would only choose the right choices? Yes. Look at your Jesus - has he ever made a wrong choice? According to you that's what you're trying to follow! Quote >>>>What mistake do you think Jesus made???? Righteousness is Perfection. Why would the perfect God give us an example of imperfection? Perfection is not attainable here on earth, but, only perfection can be followed and never attained. There is no such thing as perfection on earth (besides Jesus), but there is such a thing as a perfect heart. There is purity, and purity is not reached by being sin free, but by being honest and truthfull. You believe you are not guilty of sin, while that is your right to believe that, it is most definitely false. If you have ever told a lie, you are guilty. But you will say, I dont believe in God therefore I never have sinned...that is between you and God, but just because you believe you are innocent, does not mean you are. The bible talks a bit about perfection. Jesus calls us to be perfect as God is perfect and James says again that a perfect man is one whos words do not condemn him. I don't give shit what James said. He's not God nor son of the God, why should anyone ever listen to him? You'd better listen to your local minister - at least you could make sure his words were quoted properly. Quote >>>>It doesnt matter who said it, it only matters if it is the truth. Even simpler. Ill ask if you ever told a lie, you say no. You just lied, and your own words condemned you to being a liar. But, Ill ask if you ever told a lie, and you say yes, then your own words have not condemned you. Though you have told a lie, you are no longer a liar if you have admitted it. But, what are some of the reasons people do not admit their lies? Now you get closer to the truth in someone, and you begin to see just how powerful societys EGO really is, and what it will do to defend itself. So you didn't answer the question - if your God wanted us to be perfect, why he didn't create us perfect? The God is obviously capable of creating perfect humans; why didn't he? Quote >>>>You still dont understand what I said? Perhaps he did create us perfect, but perfect into an imperfect world, so that perfection might be understood as truth rather than what the world thinks is perfect. Ask yourself what you deserve after understanding that life was a gift. Its like giving a child a present and them saying "I want more"! Or why some people NEVER SEE their own fault within destruction of a relationship. it seems to be very America-specific things. It's not only in relationships - a lot of people here seem to generally blame everyone else for their own acts of stupidity. Just turn on your radio, and in 30 minutes you'll hear from another stupid idiot who wants to ban the school sport competitions because "his kids did not qualify to the sport team", or that the government should pay off his mortgage because "he signed the loan application without reading it". So far I have never seen anything like that in other few countries I lived and worked. And from history classes I know for sure it wasn't like that all the time; seems to be pretty recent innovation. Quote >>>>Yes, and this blame carries bitterness that is not seen, and will never go away until it is. Both sides carry blame for the other, but fail to see their own. Truth is about seeing your fault, blame, and guilt, and it is the beginning of peace. Quote Seeing your fault and admitting your mistakes is completely different from feeling guilty. The first is a requirement for improverment, and the second leads to depression. Believe me, one does not need to follow Jesus to become a better skydiver - but the ability to accept constructive critique is necessary. Quote >>>>Not to be a better skydiver, probably better off following Spacelands Anomaly for that, but to be a man in commune with God takes truth. I mentioned that feeling guilty about something generally will provoke us to ask forgiveness or seek understanding....But, being guilty is what following Jesus reveals. He reveals our guilt, but fills us with his innocence so that we can commune with God. Simpler, just because you dont feel guilty, does not mean that you arent. I hate to say it, but you are guilty and standing condemned right now by your very own words. Quote Because I cannot see him with my eyes, I see him with my heart, and that, allows me to see him in everything. The heart cannot see anything, it's a blood pump. Any graduate with high school diploma should know that. So when you're talking about "seeing someone with your heart", you're talking nonsense. Could you please explain? Quote >>>>I have played music with alot of people in my time. I have played with educated, technical people, played with people who were really good at playing cover songs (well known songs ect...), but the greatest and most complete players are the ones who play from someplace deeper. They write riffs, lyrics, and progressions from someplace deep within themselves, where the mind is free and the soul is guided...its music that was just meant to be, or indeed already was. Its tapping into the "unknown" and making it "known". Im afraid you may not know what I am talking about. Its when an athelete is "in the zone", or a writer is in deep focus, or when all someone has left is faith, hope, and love. Its when I cant, becomes I can and lives are inspired and changed. On this level of depth is only the surface of Gods power in our lives....Only the surface. Like a thimbleful of the ocean. When it comes to God, my fear of him is strong, but the love he reveals is even stronger. God is the unknown, the absolute, the only, I am but a man in love with his greatest expression of love. I cannot come close to understanding the power that is in Jesus, but, I know that power loves me and that takes me deeper and deeper.Quote Just because you didnt see it, doesnt mean it wasnt there. So you believe in Zeus, Odin and so on? Just because you didnt see it, doesnt mean they aren't there, right?Quote >>>>Did you know that a man can only believe what he wants to? It literally is believe what you want, it is the only thing you can."We didn't start the fire" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Next Page 10 of 15 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. 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shaark 0 #234 June 27, 2008 Maybe, but magnitude of the existing universe and all of the supporting physical laws coupled with the fact we don't know how any of it got here, should at least consider extra-dimensional contribution equally with spontaneous origins. Logically it would seem both avenues should be thoroughly pursued. _____________________________________________________________________________ Big bang, or any other theory, we are still left with the basic choice of spontaneous creation of the universe out of nothing, or creation caused by a 'god'. Our present science can describe some cases of spontaneous creation, e.g. pair-pair production, followed by instantaneous annihilation. But quantum uncertainty should occasionally allow some particles to escape annihilation and remain in normal space-time. This possible trickle of matter/energy might be the fuel for the increase in the rate of expansion of the universe, though I imagine the amount of energy needed should be so large as to be observationally apparent, which so far it isn't. Of course dark energy escapes our observation also. We have a lot to learn. The admirable thing is that human science allows for an ever increasing understanding of the remarkable construct that is our universe. Conversely we can postulate a 'god'. Now we have a problem. We are human. All our gods are anthropomorphic. They really cannot be anything else. Yet, by definition, a god should be unknowable. When humans presuppose a god, so often this necessitates 'religion'. All religions define their god, generally limiting the scope of any further exploration. Pretty much all the gods of our human folklore are suspect. We imbue our gods with human emotions. We describe them in human terms. We have them intimately interacting with us. We insist that they are concerned about us. We demand that they love us. We presume to know what they want of us. We honour ourselves that they should want something of us. We describe their realms as if we have first hand knowledge of such. We invite ourselves into their presence, into their supernatural world. I personally find all of the above a bit of a stretch. We should maybe ask ourselves not is there a god, but WHY is there a god? If we can come up with some logical answers maybe we can better tackle the question IS there a god? (If we can keep religion out of this endeavour so much the better.) Logic, of course, is suspect, as it is a human trait, and a god is not human, by definition. I kind of like the concept of the world turtle, carrying the earth on it's back. And you may ask: but on what does it stand? On mud, of course. And if you ask on what does the mud rest ------- Why, it's mud all the way down! tanstaafl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #235 June 27, 2008 Quote Quote So let's make it clear - did they have Jesus present on this AA meeting Yes, " If two or more are gathered in my name I will be there." You missed my question. I didn't ask whether Jesus promised to be there. I asked whether he was there. Did anyone see him and could confirm it? Quote You can talk to them like I did and listen to their testimonies. But if you do please be respectful. We already established that if someone prayed Jesus and healed, you Christians say it as a proof Jesus exists. But if someone prayed Jesus and died, you Christians say he was "putting God into test", and should not expect anything. Which makes the testimony useless. Basically all they could really testify is that they prayed Jesus, and recovered from alcoholism. I could testify that I jumped out of the airplane at 14K, prayed Odin, and was safely on the ground in five minutes. Neither example proves the existense of Jesus or Odin. Quote Well, if you ever talk to any of them or go to a meeting you will see that they were helpless to stop. As far as I remember, the most difficult thing and the most important step for any substance abuser is to admit it. After that, when a person understands they have a problem, and ready to put some efforts to fix it (otherwise they wouldn't be present on AA meeting), they do not need any Jesus to help them. Quote I have done my own study on prayer and I can tell you it works just fine. Unfortunately your own study is very limited in terms of applicability.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #236 June 27, 2008 Quote I really am sorry that evil in man seems to be so...well...evil sometimes, and I am even more sorry that it has manifested in preists raping children, its just horrible, horrible. Why should you be sorry? That's the way your God created the people. And he's obviously fine with this, and he does not punish anyone. Quote But God doesnt change, his heart is the same. What changed was his convenant with man, the way he aparently learned from us while knowing all along what would happen. There is something really wrong with your logic. An omniscient creature CANNOT learn anything. It already knows everything by definition. Quote I am always curious to hear these guidelines you are talking about. Just take a look on driver handbook of your state. It is much, much less ambiguous than your Bible. Quote These guidelines you are speaking of, would they be righteous by nature by any chance? Dont you find it a bit curious that true wisdom seems to have a "good" tone to it??? There is no "truly righteous thing" in this world, because there is no definition of such thing everyone would agree. Quote That is a good question. You have to be born of righteousness, meaning, it must be understood and learned. Not at all. Either I was created righteous (and this way I was born righteous), or I was not created righteous (and this way the God shouldn't blame me). Quote The bible teaches us that we are becoming Gods righteousness, not just that we are learning from it. Then the bible is wrong. Quote Gods plan, as he describes in the bible is to establish a new heaven and a new earth as a home of righteousness. Imagine, if everyone is righteous as God in the next life, what he would teach us then, and indeed, what we would become....or dont... The God does not need a plan. If he's omnipotent, and he controls everything, he does not need to wait until "next life". He could change whatever he wants right now. Moreover, since the God is omniscient, he already knew long time ago what exactly would have happened, and that his current plan would not work.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #237 June 27, 2008 Quote Because there is lots that we don't understand does not mean there is a god. You use faulty logic to arrive at your conclusion*** Maybe, but magnitude of the existing universe and all of the supporting physical laws coupled with the fact we don't know how any of it got here, should at least consider extra-dimensional contribution equally with spontaneous origins. Logically it would seem both avenues should be thoroughly pursued. _______________________________________ It's kind of tough to pursue both avenues when one has evidence and the other has none. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rynodigsmusic 0 #238 June 27, 2008 Why should you be sorry? That's the way your God created the people. And he's obviously fine with this, and he does not punish anyone.Quote >>>>I dont think I would jump to that conclusion so fast. There is something really wrong with your logic. An omniscient creature CANNOT learn anything. It already knows everything by definition.Quote >>>>Thats why God is a miracle. How are we as mere humans going to contenplate the thoughts and ways of God? Quote There is no "truly righteous thing" in this world, because there is no definition of such thing everyone would agree. >>>>Agreed. Although I believe that Jesus revealed it in spirit, and therefore if you are in the spirit of Gods love, righteousness will be taught and followed. I can testify that following righteousness feels good, but I am not righteous in Gods sight without Jesus, so then, I am not righteous at all. Righteousness is a path to follow, and its revelations are unexplainable to those not on it. Quote Not at all. Either I was created righteous (and this way I was born righteous), or I was not created righteous (and this way the God shouldn't blame me). >>>>Im afraid there is much about God you dont understand even as it is revealed in the scriptures. God knows us deeper than we know ourselves. He knows our hearts and minds...he knows how rebellious and treacherous we are, he does not blame us, he is just and fair and judges us the way we judge ourselves and others. Judgment came on the world through Christ. Guess what? Everyone is guilty, and no one is good. That is why he sent Jesus so that even still we might be saved from the torment and condemnation of sin. Only those who live by the truth will see their guilt in sin. It is not God who blames us, but us who blame God, and as long as we continue to blame him, we will never see the truth and find mercy in his judgment. Quote The bible teaches us that we are becoming Gods righteousness, not just that we are learning from it. Then the bible is wrong.Quote >>>>Its easy to say that, but we see its principles ring true in everyday life. If you teach a child something, does that mean he is going to do it? No, becasue he may not understand why you are telling him somehting. So, he does what he wants and learns the "hard way". After learning the hard way, he understands why and therefore becomes if he is obedient to his own understanding that is. The taught has become the teacher, and his very desire is to continue to be obedient so that he doesnt slip into the hardness of making the wrong descioion again. Quote The God does not need a plan. If he's omnipotent, and he controls everything, he does not need to wait until "next life". He could change whatever he wants right now. Moreover, since the God is omniscient, he already knew long time ago what exactly would have happened, and that his current plan would not work. >>>>You are also at a door. You wont be able to understand if you dont believe."We didn't start the fire" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites maadmax 0 #239 June 27, 2008 We should maybe ask ourselves not is there a god, but WHY is there a god? If we can come up with some logical answers maybe we can better tackle the question IS there a god? (If we can keep religion out of this endeavour so much the better.) Logic, of course, is suspect, as it is a human trait, and a god is not human, by definition.*** Very good post. Since the unknowable is, well, unknowable I don't worry much about it. I concern myself with that which I can grasp. Like all the major life issues : existence, purpose, good, evil, maximizing pleasure, minimizing pain etc. From there I seek a unifying theory that will make sense out of all of it. Luckily for me God has made the answers available, often through unique and paradoxical ways. ________________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #240 June 27, 2008 Quote I dont think I would jump to that conclusion so fast. But it's obvious conclusion. If your God did not want gays or pedophiles, he'd create the people in the way they wouldn't even think about that. Since he didn't, the logical assumption is he wanted them to do so, or at least accepted it. Quote Thats why God is a miracle. How are we as mere humans going to contenplate the thoughts and ways of God? Well, I challenge the way YOU describe your God from the bible, not the "real God". If YOU say that the God is omnipotent and omniscient - you're saying that the God cannot learn anything, since he already knows everything by definition of omniscient. If you say the God is NOT omnipotent and omniscient (so far no one said that), then we'll get other questions to ask. As you see, your problem starts even with your definition of God. Quote Agreed. Although I believe that Jesus revealed it in spirit, and therefore if you are in the spirit of Gods love, righteousness will be taught and followed. I can testify that following righteousness feels good, but I am not righteous in Gods sight without Jesus, so then, I am not righteous at all. Righteousness is a path to follow, and its revelations are unexplainable to those not on it. Your beliefs do not matter in terms of applicability. And your testimony is not valid, since you have no proof you're following righteousness - and therefore you're making a conclusion in your testimony. All you could testify is that you do something, and it feels good; same might be applicable as well to other things. Quote Im afraid there is much about God you dont understand even as it is revealed in the scriptures. Again, I'm challenging your definitions, not the "real God" (who works in misterious ways, and therefore it is not possible to understand him at all). With your definition it's simple - either we were created perfect (and therefore should be), or we were not (and therefore God should blame himself). Quote Guess what? Everyone is guilty, and no one is good. That is why he sent Jesus so that even still we might be saved from the torment and condemnation of sin. First, I'd like to make it clear I'm good and I'm not guilty. If you don't think you are, it's your problem. Don't make it everyone's problem. The whole "sent Jesus" thing sounds like absolute bullshit if you consider the God omnipotent. If he wanted any change, being omnipotent he could implement the change right away, the same second. Why would he need to send anyone and wait? If you're supporting the Jesus thing, you're supporting the fact that your God is not omnipotent, and there are some higher rules he has to obey to make things happen. Then the next question would be, who could set up rules your God needs to follow? Quote Its easy to say that, but we see its principles ring true in everyday life. The principles in driver handbook prove to be true for everyone who's driving a car. Does it mean that the driver handbook is full of righteoness, and should be used as a guide to live ethernal life (or even to skydive)? Quote You are also at a door. You wont be able to understand if you dont believe. So you finally agreed that there is no God unless you believe in it? Voila!!!* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rynodigsmusic 0 #241 June 27, 2008 QuoteQuote I dont think I would jump to that conclusion so fast. But it's obvious conclusion. If your God did not want gays or pedophiles, he'd create the people in the way they wouldn't even think about that. Since he didn't, the logical assumption is he wanted them to do so, or at least accepted it.Quote >>>>Or he would make us choose?? Which is what love is all about. It wants to be desired and chosen over other desires. If it is chosen, then love is always first and over everything. There is a difference between living in the world and being of the world. Those who follw righteousness do so first. The more you desire and follow righteousness, the more it is filled within you and the sweeter life tastes. But it is a choice, as it would lack power any other way. That choice is made much much easier when the Holy Spirit is given through repentance. Most who taste goodness and purity feel "high" and they never want to come down. Quote Thats why God is a miracle. How are we as mere humans going to contenplate the thoughts and ways of God? Well, I challenge the way YOU describe your God from the bible, not the "real God". If YOU say that the God is omnipotent and omniscient - you're saying that the God cannot learn anything, since he already knows everything by definition of omniscient. If you say the God is NOT omnipotent and omniscient (so far no one said that), then we'll get other questions to ask. As you see, your problem starts even with your definition of God. Quote >>>>Im saying that it is possible that we dont understand anything about his ways, so how could it be so far off to say that he knows and learns in the same miraculous moment? What we understand is what his righteousness teaches us. I believe his righteousness is Jesus, so I follow him. His power is beyond our comprehension, literally. He is God. He does have the power to orchestrate a plan while knowing the outcome but still learning at the same time does he not? We only know our concept of time, we dont know the concept of eternity and how it operates. It is possible that God has manifested these moments even the billions and billions of all moments into no moment at all in the realm of eternity. The moment in between a miracle and reality is still a miracle. Your beliefs do not matter in terms of applicability. And your testimony is not valid, since you have no proof you're following righteousness - Quote >>>>To follow righteousness means to desire it. There is no proof that I follow Jesus, except in where my desire is. Where we put our desire shows by our actions. We are all weak, and we all stumble into sin. It is persevering that fills our desire to leave sin altogether. Similar to if you have hope and die with hope in your heart, then nothing else mattered did it? God has revealed that remorse is what recieving grace is all about, deep remorse. Grace sustains us, when we fall into sin, its remorse that grace finds again. And the very nature of grace is that it loves to forgive and be merciful, so as long as there is remorse in our hearts, grace can come in. Quote Im afraid there is much about God you dont understand even as it is revealed in the scriptures. Again, I'm challenging your definitions, not the "real God" (who works in misterious ways, and therefore it is not possible to understand him at all). With your definition it's simple - either we were created perfect (and therefore should be), or we were not (and therefore God should blame himself).Quote >>>>Maybe he did create us perfect, but part of being perfect is choosing the right thing all the time. Maybe the choices we make that we blame God for are actually really only choices that we make? Understanding our failures is part of learning humbleness and will unite even the most unlikely people. Shoot, thats what many support groups are all about. Quote Guess what? Everyone is guilty, and no one is good. That is why he sent Jesus so that even still we might be saved from the torment and condemnation of sin. First, I'd like to make it clear I'm good and I'm not guilty. If you don't think you are, it's your problem. Don't make it everyone's problem.Quote >>>>It must be nice to enjoy a lie...not too trustworthy though unfortunatley. You sound like a pharisee in Jesus' time. Even if you did believe he is the Son of God, you would have a hard time with the truth of your guilt, as they did. QuoteThe whole "sent Jesus" thing sounds like absolute bullshit if you consider the God omnipotent. If he wanted any change, being omnipotent he could implement the change right away, the same second. Why would he need to send anyone and wait? >>>>He sent himself, that is what is so miraculous, wonderous, and amazing. He sent himself to do what no other could do, to give us a message no other knew. It is exciting just to think about how amazing God is, how the heart of such a love pours out of the wind, the trees, the ocean, the mountains, the sky. >>>>It must be somewhat exhausting to never surrender. All we do is surrender to his love, mercy, understanding, comfort, joy. Seems a little strange that anyone would continue to lose peace because of resistance and rebellion, but hey, I did that for years. You are actually holding yourself in contempt, there is mercy for you though, ready and waiting whenever you want it. And there is much freedom in that mercy. Quote Its easy to say that, but we see its principles ring true in everyday life. The principles in driver handbook prove to be true for everyone who's driving a car. Does it mean that the driver handbook is full of righteoness, and should be used as a guide to live ethernal life (or even to skydive)?Quote >>>>Goodness sakes George! LOL! I didnt know I was learning the ways of righteousness by using my turn signal and buckling my seatbelt! Quote You are also at a door. You wont be able to understand if you dont believe. So you finally agreed that there is no God unless you believe in it? Voila!!! >>>>Just because a man is blind, does not mean he cannot see., he just doesnt see with his eyes. Just because God is invisible, does not mean he is not there. He reveals himself in the heart and that is what pours out thorugh the eyes. So that we can see with the eyes of Heaven."We didn't start the fire" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites labrys 0 #242 June 28, 2008 QuoteBut it's obvious conclusion. If your God did not want gays or pedophiles, he'd create the people in the way they wouldn't even think about that. Oh (pun intended) jesus christ. Please stop lumping gays and pedophiles together. I'm gay. I've never had sex with anyone under the age of 18 (well... at least I haven't since I was over the age of 18) I've never known another gay person who would consider sexual predation of children in any way acceptable. I've never met another gay person who wouldn't drop a dime if they thought a child was being molested. I've never met another gay person who wouldn't step in to intercede while they waited for the dime they dropped to be noticed.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #243 June 28, 2008 Quote Oh (pun intended) jesus christ. Please stop lumping gays and pedophiles together. Relax, dude. This is just an example.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #244 June 28, 2008 Quote Or he would make us choose?? This ends up with the same dilemma - if the God does not want pedophiles, why would he created the people the way that some of them could make this choice? [irrelevant stuff about love skipped] Quote Im saying that it is possible that we dont understand anything about his ways, so how could it be so far off to say that he knows and learns in the same miraculous moment? You missing the point again. We're not talking about the real God; we're talking about the God you believe in. Do you believe the God is omnipotent and omniscient? Quote Maybe he did create us perfect, but part of being perfect is choosing the right thing all the time. Maybe the choices we make that we blame God for are actually really only choices that we make? If we were created perfect, we'd only be able to make right choices. The only difference between a priest and a thief created by God is the choice they make. Quote It must be nice to enjoy a lie...not too trustworthy though unfortunatley. It's not a lie. I'm 100% sure that I'm good, and I do not feel guilty. I'm sure even more than you're sure you following Jesus. Quote He sent himself, that is what is so miraculous, wonderous, and amazing. He sent himself to do what no other could do, to give us a message no other knew. The only emotion I experience is bewilderment. This is probably the weirdest possible thing to fix problems with your creation. Quote Goodness sakes George! LOL! I didnt know I was learning the ways of righteousness by using my turn signal and buckling my seatbelt! You now have my word. And if you donate me $100, you'll be in heaven. Quote Just because a man is blind, does not mean he cannot see., he just doesnt see with his eyes. Just because God is invisible, does not mean he is not there. How'd you know the God is invisible?* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rynodigsmusic 0 #245 June 28, 2008 This ends up with the same dilemma - if the God does not want pedophiles, why would he created the people the way that some of them could make this choice? Quote You missing the point again. We're not talking about the real God; we're talking about the God you believe in. Do you believe the God is omnipotent and omniscient? I had to look those words up. I have heard them before several times, but didnt quite know what they meant. I guess they are interesting definitions so that people can put a grasp on God. Me personally, I believe that is a good definition, but thats about it. I like to imagine God as the supreme miracle, the actual spirit of Life. Existing with the power of a miracle in every miraculous moment. Power beyond Power, the absolute birth of Power...see, you cant really define him, he reveals himself and his beautiful qualities to our hearts. I could try and define him to you, but I dont think you would understand...as words would never be able to. The closest I can get is the human definition of Love, to the very depth of what it reveals. Love seems to be the only thing that I can define him with in some way. Love is empowering on sooooooo many levels.Quote If we were created perfect, we'd only be able to make right choices. The only difference between a priest and a thief created by God is the choice they make. No, that is what you think perfection is. Maybe it is that we would only choose the right choices? The bible talks a bit about perfection. Jesus calls us to be perfect as God is perfect and James says again that a perfect man is one whos words do not condemn him. That is, judgment against another for the things you yourself are guilty for. False testimony ect... I believe that Jesus is the perfect example of perfect love, and so I follow him with all my heart. Why would God give us an example of anything else? He knows we wont attain it here, but, he knows the life we find and feel as we desire to attain it is just what we want. We all fail, and none of us are perfect like God, that is why we need him.Quote It's not a lie. I'm 100% sure that I'm good, and I do not feel guilty. I'm sure even more than you're sure you following Jesus. Ok, one thing the pharisees could not see is there own guilt. Guilt remains because we truly cannot see it. If you feel guilty about something, you know its there, but there is a guilt that stains the soul, that after time gets hidden but doesnt go away. This invisible guilt will find blame and bitterness, the two greatest ememys of peace. Guilt hides, just like blame and just like bitterness. Its why people need physcologists these days and they go back to old childhood memories ect... Or why some people NEVER SEE their own fault within destruction of a relationship. Both sides carry blame for the other, but fail to see their own. Truth is about seeing your fault, blame, and guilt, and it is the beginning of peace. Jesus says the truth will set you free, and I can testify to its power and peace. It literally is when the Lie meets the Truth.Quote Quote Goodness sakes George! LOL! I didnt know I was learning the ways of righteousness by using my turn signal and buckling my seatbelt! You now have my word. And if you donate me $100, you'll be in heaven. Quote LOL! How'd you know the God is invisible? Because I cannot see him with my eyes, I see him with my heart, and that, allows me to see him in everything. It is similar to when someone comes into the room and you just know something is wrong, but you dont know what it is unless it is revealed to you. Or even worse, when you dont know something is wrong and it is later revealed to you that there is. Just because you didnt see it, doesnt mean it wasnt there."We didn't start the fire" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,271 #246 July 1, 2008 QuoteYou'll have to take that up with Pascal. I didn't make the wager. Hey, Pascal! Your wager really sucks.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #247 July 2, 2008 Quote I had to look those words up. I have heard them before several times, but didnt quite know what they meant. It's strange because those are the words Christians use themselves. Quote I guess they are interesting definitions so that people can put a grasp on God. Me personally, I believe that is a good definition, but thats about it. I like to imagine God as the supreme miracle, the actual spirit of Life. Existing with the power of a miracle in every miraculous moment. Power beyond Power, the absolute birth of Power...see, you cant really define him, he reveals himself and his beautiful qualities to our hearts. I could try and define him to you, but I dont think you would understand...as words would never be able to. Looks like you're confusing the definition with what you like to imagine. This will not work, as you cannot base definition on your personal subjective feelings. Let me ask you a couple of simple questions: - Do you believe the God is omnipotent in terms that there is nothing the God cannot do? - Do you believe the God is omniscient in terms that the God knows everything (including what everyone did, what everyone is doing and what everyone will be doing tomorrow)? If possible, please give a short answer. Yes/no would be perfect. No sermons here please. Quote The closest I can get is the human definition of Love, to the very depth of what it reveals. Love seems to be the only thing that I can define him with in some way. Love is empowering on sooooooo many levels. Then your definition makes little sense if you tell people to follow God just because it "empowering and feels good". And it makes even less sense if you tell the people the God wants them to follow Jesus or they'll go to Hell. Quote No, that is what you think perfection is. Maybe it is that we would only choose the right choices? Yes. Look at your Jesus - has he ever made a wrong choice? According to you that's what you're trying to follow! Quote The bible talks a bit about perfection. Jesus calls us to be perfect as God is perfect and James says again that a perfect man is one whos words do not condemn him. I don't give shit what James said. He's not God nor son of the God, why should anyone ever listen to him? You'd better listen to your local minister - at least you could make sure his words were quoted properly. Quote That is, judgment against another for the things you yourself are guilty for. False testimony ect... I believe that Jesus is the perfect example of perfect love, and so I follow him with all my heart. Why would God give us an example of anything else? So you didn't answer the question - if your God wanted us to be perfect, why he didn't create us perfect? The God is obviously capable of creating perfect humans; why didn't he? Quote Ok, one thing the pharisees could not see is there own guilt. Guilt remains because we truly cannot see it. If you feel guilty about something, you know its there, but there is a guilt that stains the soul, that after time gets hidden but doesnt go away. This invisible guilt will find blame and bitterness, the two greatest ememys of peace. Guilt hides, just like blame and just like bitterness. Its why people need physcologists these days and they go back to old childhood memories ect... Well, I'm not pharisee, I don't suffer from invisible guilt, and I don't need a shrink. Could you please be more specific in your replies, and make it more relevant to the original quote? Quote Or why some people NEVER SEE their own fault within destruction of a relationship. it seems to be very America-specific things. It's not only in relationships - a lot of people here seem to generally blame everyone else for their own acts of stupidity. Just turn on your radio, and in 30 minutes you'll hear from another stupid idiot who wants to ban the school sport competitions because "his kids did not qualify to the sport team", or that the government should pay off his mortgage because "he signed the loan application without reading it". So far I have never seen anything like that in other few countries I lived and worked. And from history classes I know for sure it wasn't like that all the time; seems to be pretty recent innovation. Quote Both sides carry blame for the other, but fail to see their own. Truth is about seeing your fault, blame, and guilt, and it is the beginning of peace. Seeing your fault and admitting your mistakes is completely different from feeling guilty. The first is a requirement for improverment, and the second leads to depression. Believe me, one does not need to follow Jesus to become a better skydiver - but the ability to accept constructive critique is necessary. Quote Because I cannot see him with my eyes, I see him with my heart, and that, allows me to see him in everything. The heart cannot see anything, it's a blood pump. Any graduate with high school diploma should know that. So when you're talking about "seeing someone with your heart", you're talking nonsense. Could you please explain? Quote Just because you didnt see it, doesnt mean it wasnt there. So you believe in Zeus, Odin and so on? Just because you didnt see it, doesnt mean they aren't there, right?* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,672 #248 July 2, 2008 Quote Just because you didnt see it, doesnt mean it wasnt there. Quote-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So you believe in Zeus, Odin and so on? Just because you didnt see it, doesnt mean they aren't there, right? A quick archive search shows that various versions of that question have been asked dozens of times, and always you get an evasive answer or no answer at all. The reason is obvious - there is no more evidence in support the judeo-christian god than there is for the Flying Spaghetti Monster.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #249 July 2, 2008 But but you have to believe in Zues and repent before him before you can see the light and reap the benefits! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rynodigsmusic 0 #250 July 2, 2008 It's strange because those are the words Christians use themselves. >>>>God Is, take that for however you like. Explore love a little deeper and you may or may not understand. But try telling the couple in love that love is not alive, that it is just an emotion, that its not empowering...that it doesnt have the power to unlock the deepest most poetic parts of the heart. Explore love, but beware, love is something you have to let in, before you can even begin to understand its power over you. Quote Looks like you're confusing the definition with what you like to imagine. This will not work, as you cannot base definition on your personal subjective feelings.Quote >>>>Asking me what God is, is just like asking me what love is. Dont you understand that artists have been trying to capture and frame the power of love since the beginning of time??? Love only gives us moments and brief touches of its power, but power it is and it is what we let in...what we believe. Asking me what God is, is like asking me to tell you how much you love your children, I could never understand that. Asking me what God is, is like asking me what life is, like asking me to explain to you, a non believer, what a miracle is. My imagination was a gift of the Holy Spirit, a tool to seek to understand God more fully, in ways that are sacred to me. God reveals we are children and when he reveals himself to his children, his children learn greater and greater things about their Father. That is, a relationship grows from "infancy" to "maturity". In the realm of eternity, I am barely born and look forward to the deeper revelations in Christ. Quote The closest I can get is the human definition of Love, to the very depth of what it reveals. Love seems to be the only thing that I can define him with in some way. Love is empowering on sooooooo many levels. Then your definition makes little sense if you tell people to follow God just because it "empowering and feels good". And it makes even less sense if you tell the people the God wants them to follow Jesus or they'll go to Hell. Quote >>>>"Since what is known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them" QuoteNo, that is what you think perfection is. Maybe it is that we would only choose the right choices? Yes. Look at your Jesus - has he ever made a wrong choice? According to you that's what you're trying to follow! Quote >>>>What mistake do you think Jesus made???? Righteousness is Perfection. Why would the perfect God give us an example of imperfection? Perfection is not attainable here on earth, but, only perfection can be followed and never attained. There is no such thing as perfection on earth (besides Jesus), but there is such a thing as a perfect heart. There is purity, and purity is not reached by being sin free, but by being honest and truthfull. You believe you are not guilty of sin, while that is your right to believe that, it is most definitely false. If you have ever told a lie, you are guilty. But you will say, I dont believe in God therefore I never have sinned...that is between you and God, but just because you believe you are innocent, does not mean you are. The bible talks a bit about perfection. Jesus calls us to be perfect as God is perfect and James says again that a perfect man is one whos words do not condemn him. I don't give shit what James said. He's not God nor son of the God, why should anyone ever listen to him? You'd better listen to your local minister - at least you could make sure his words were quoted properly. Quote >>>>It doesnt matter who said it, it only matters if it is the truth. Even simpler. Ill ask if you ever told a lie, you say no. You just lied, and your own words condemned you to being a liar. But, Ill ask if you ever told a lie, and you say yes, then your own words have not condemned you. Though you have told a lie, you are no longer a liar if you have admitted it. But, what are some of the reasons people do not admit their lies? Now you get closer to the truth in someone, and you begin to see just how powerful societys EGO really is, and what it will do to defend itself. So you didn't answer the question - if your God wanted us to be perfect, why he didn't create us perfect? The God is obviously capable of creating perfect humans; why didn't he? Quote >>>>You still dont understand what I said? Perhaps he did create us perfect, but perfect into an imperfect world, so that perfection might be understood as truth rather than what the world thinks is perfect. Ask yourself what you deserve after understanding that life was a gift. Its like giving a child a present and them saying "I want more"! Or why some people NEVER SEE their own fault within destruction of a relationship. it seems to be very America-specific things. It's not only in relationships - a lot of people here seem to generally blame everyone else for their own acts of stupidity. Just turn on your radio, and in 30 minutes you'll hear from another stupid idiot who wants to ban the school sport competitions because "his kids did not qualify to the sport team", or that the government should pay off his mortgage because "he signed the loan application without reading it". So far I have never seen anything like that in other few countries I lived and worked. And from history classes I know for sure it wasn't like that all the time; seems to be pretty recent innovation. Quote >>>>Yes, and this blame carries bitterness that is not seen, and will never go away until it is. Both sides carry blame for the other, but fail to see their own. Truth is about seeing your fault, blame, and guilt, and it is the beginning of peace. Quote Seeing your fault and admitting your mistakes is completely different from feeling guilty. The first is a requirement for improverment, and the second leads to depression. Believe me, one does not need to follow Jesus to become a better skydiver - but the ability to accept constructive critique is necessary. Quote >>>>Not to be a better skydiver, probably better off following Spacelands Anomaly for that, but to be a man in commune with God takes truth. I mentioned that feeling guilty about something generally will provoke us to ask forgiveness or seek understanding....But, being guilty is what following Jesus reveals. He reveals our guilt, but fills us with his innocence so that we can commune with God. Simpler, just because you dont feel guilty, does not mean that you arent. I hate to say it, but you are guilty and standing condemned right now by your very own words. Quote Because I cannot see him with my eyes, I see him with my heart, and that, allows me to see him in everything. The heart cannot see anything, it's a blood pump. Any graduate with high school diploma should know that. So when you're talking about "seeing someone with your heart", you're talking nonsense. Could you please explain? Quote >>>>I have played music with alot of people in my time. I have played with educated, technical people, played with people who were really good at playing cover songs (well known songs ect...), but the greatest and most complete players are the ones who play from someplace deeper. They write riffs, lyrics, and progressions from someplace deep within themselves, where the mind is free and the soul is guided...its music that was just meant to be, or indeed already was. Its tapping into the "unknown" and making it "known". Im afraid you may not know what I am talking about. Its when an athelete is "in the zone", or a writer is in deep focus, or when all someone has left is faith, hope, and love. Its when I cant, becomes I can and lives are inspired and changed. On this level of depth is only the surface of Gods power in our lives....Only the surface. Like a thimbleful of the ocean. When it comes to God, my fear of him is strong, but the love he reveals is even stronger. God is the unknown, the absolute, the only, I am but a man in love with his greatest expression of love. I cannot come close to understanding the power that is in Jesus, but, I know that power loves me and that takes me deeper and deeper.Quote Just because you didnt see it, doesnt mean it wasnt there. So you believe in Zeus, Odin and so on? Just because you didnt see it, doesnt mean they aren't there, right?Quote >>>>Did you know that a man can only believe what he wants to? It literally is believe what you want, it is the only thing you can."We didn't start the fire" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Next Page 10 of 15 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. 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maadmax 0 #239 June 27, 2008 We should maybe ask ourselves not is there a god, but WHY is there a god? If we can come up with some logical answers maybe we can better tackle the question IS there a god? (If we can keep religion out of this endeavour so much the better.) Logic, of course, is suspect, as it is a human trait, and a god is not human, by definition.*** Very good post. Since the unknowable is, well, unknowable I don't worry much about it. I concern myself with that which I can grasp. Like all the major life issues : existence, purpose, good, evil, maximizing pleasure, minimizing pain etc. From there I seek a unifying theory that will make sense out of all of it. Luckily for me God has made the answers available, often through unique and paradoxical ways. ________________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #240 June 27, 2008 Quote I dont think I would jump to that conclusion so fast. But it's obvious conclusion. If your God did not want gays or pedophiles, he'd create the people in the way they wouldn't even think about that. Since he didn't, the logical assumption is he wanted them to do so, or at least accepted it. Quote Thats why God is a miracle. How are we as mere humans going to contenplate the thoughts and ways of God? Well, I challenge the way YOU describe your God from the bible, not the "real God". If YOU say that the God is omnipotent and omniscient - you're saying that the God cannot learn anything, since he already knows everything by definition of omniscient. If you say the God is NOT omnipotent and omniscient (so far no one said that), then we'll get other questions to ask. As you see, your problem starts even with your definition of God. Quote Agreed. Although I believe that Jesus revealed it in spirit, and therefore if you are in the spirit of Gods love, righteousness will be taught and followed. I can testify that following righteousness feels good, but I am not righteous in Gods sight without Jesus, so then, I am not righteous at all. Righteousness is a path to follow, and its revelations are unexplainable to those not on it. Your beliefs do not matter in terms of applicability. And your testimony is not valid, since you have no proof you're following righteousness - and therefore you're making a conclusion in your testimony. All you could testify is that you do something, and it feels good; same might be applicable as well to other things. Quote Im afraid there is much about God you dont understand even as it is revealed in the scriptures. Again, I'm challenging your definitions, not the "real God" (who works in misterious ways, and therefore it is not possible to understand him at all). With your definition it's simple - either we were created perfect (and therefore should be), or we were not (and therefore God should blame himself). Quote Guess what? Everyone is guilty, and no one is good. That is why he sent Jesus so that even still we might be saved from the torment and condemnation of sin. First, I'd like to make it clear I'm good and I'm not guilty. If you don't think you are, it's your problem. Don't make it everyone's problem. The whole "sent Jesus" thing sounds like absolute bullshit if you consider the God omnipotent. If he wanted any change, being omnipotent he could implement the change right away, the same second. Why would he need to send anyone and wait? If you're supporting the Jesus thing, you're supporting the fact that your God is not omnipotent, and there are some higher rules he has to obey to make things happen. Then the next question would be, who could set up rules your God needs to follow? Quote Its easy to say that, but we see its principles ring true in everyday life. The principles in driver handbook prove to be true for everyone who's driving a car. Does it mean that the driver handbook is full of righteoness, and should be used as a guide to live ethernal life (or even to skydive)? Quote You are also at a door. You wont be able to understand if you dont believe. So you finally agreed that there is no God unless you believe in it? Voila!!!* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rynodigsmusic 0 #241 June 27, 2008 QuoteQuote I dont think I would jump to that conclusion so fast. But it's obvious conclusion. If your God did not want gays or pedophiles, he'd create the people in the way they wouldn't even think about that. Since he didn't, the logical assumption is he wanted them to do so, or at least accepted it.Quote >>>>Or he would make us choose?? Which is what love is all about. It wants to be desired and chosen over other desires. If it is chosen, then love is always first and over everything. There is a difference between living in the world and being of the world. Those who follw righteousness do so first. The more you desire and follow righteousness, the more it is filled within you and the sweeter life tastes. But it is a choice, as it would lack power any other way. That choice is made much much easier when the Holy Spirit is given through repentance. Most who taste goodness and purity feel "high" and they never want to come down. Quote Thats why God is a miracle. How are we as mere humans going to contenplate the thoughts and ways of God? Well, I challenge the way YOU describe your God from the bible, not the "real God". If YOU say that the God is omnipotent and omniscient - you're saying that the God cannot learn anything, since he already knows everything by definition of omniscient. If you say the God is NOT omnipotent and omniscient (so far no one said that), then we'll get other questions to ask. As you see, your problem starts even with your definition of God. Quote >>>>Im saying that it is possible that we dont understand anything about his ways, so how could it be so far off to say that he knows and learns in the same miraculous moment? What we understand is what his righteousness teaches us. I believe his righteousness is Jesus, so I follow him. His power is beyond our comprehension, literally. He is God. He does have the power to orchestrate a plan while knowing the outcome but still learning at the same time does he not? We only know our concept of time, we dont know the concept of eternity and how it operates. It is possible that God has manifested these moments even the billions and billions of all moments into no moment at all in the realm of eternity. The moment in between a miracle and reality is still a miracle. Your beliefs do not matter in terms of applicability. And your testimony is not valid, since you have no proof you're following righteousness - Quote >>>>To follow righteousness means to desire it. There is no proof that I follow Jesus, except in where my desire is. Where we put our desire shows by our actions. We are all weak, and we all stumble into sin. It is persevering that fills our desire to leave sin altogether. Similar to if you have hope and die with hope in your heart, then nothing else mattered did it? God has revealed that remorse is what recieving grace is all about, deep remorse. Grace sustains us, when we fall into sin, its remorse that grace finds again. And the very nature of grace is that it loves to forgive and be merciful, so as long as there is remorse in our hearts, grace can come in. Quote Im afraid there is much about God you dont understand even as it is revealed in the scriptures. Again, I'm challenging your definitions, not the "real God" (who works in misterious ways, and therefore it is not possible to understand him at all). With your definition it's simple - either we were created perfect (and therefore should be), or we were not (and therefore God should blame himself).Quote >>>>Maybe he did create us perfect, but part of being perfect is choosing the right thing all the time. Maybe the choices we make that we blame God for are actually really only choices that we make? Understanding our failures is part of learning humbleness and will unite even the most unlikely people. Shoot, thats what many support groups are all about. Quote Guess what? Everyone is guilty, and no one is good. That is why he sent Jesus so that even still we might be saved from the torment and condemnation of sin. First, I'd like to make it clear I'm good and I'm not guilty. If you don't think you are, it's your problem. Don't make it everyone's problem.Quote >>>>It must be nice to enjoy a lie...not too trustworthy though unfortunatley. You sound like a pharisee in Jesus' time. Even if you did believe he is the Son of God, you would have a hard time with the truth of your guilt, as they did. QuoteThe whole "sent Jesus" thing sounds like absolute bullshit if you consider the God omnipotent. If he wanted any change, being omnipotent he could implement the change right away, the same second. Why would he need to send anyone and wait? >>>>He sent himself, that is what is so miraculous, wonderous, and amazing. He sent himself to do what no other could do, to give us a message no other knew. It is exciting just to think about how amazing God is, how the heart of such a love pours out of the wind, the trees, the ocean, the mountains, the sky. >>>>It must be somewhat exhausting to never surrender. All we do is surrender to his love, mercy, understanding, comfort, joy. Seems a little strange that anyone would continue to lose peace because of resistance and rebellion, but hey, I did that for years. You are actually holding yourself in contempt, there is mercy for you though, ready and waiting whenever you want it. And there is much freedom in that mercy. Quote Its easy to say that, but we see its principles ring true in everyday life. The principles in driver handbook prove to be true for everyone who's driving a car. Does it mean that the driver handbook is full of righteoness, and should be used as a guide to live ethernal life (or even to skydive)?Quote >>>>Goodness sakes George! LOL! I didnt know I was learning the ways of righteousness by using my turn signal and buckling my seatbelt! Quote You are also at a door. You wont be able to understand if you dont believe. So you finally agreed that there is no God unless you believe in it? Voila!!! >>>>Just because a man is blind, does not mean he cannot see., he just doesnt see with his eyes. Just because God is invisible, does not mean he is not there. He reveals himself in the heart and that is what pours out thorugh the eyes. So that we can see with the eyes of Heaven."We didn't start the fire" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites labrys 0 #242 June 28, 2008 QuoteBut it's obvious conclusion. If your God did not want gays or pedophiles, he'd create the people in the way they wouldn't even think about that. Oh (pun intended) jesus christ. Please stop lumping gays and pedophiles together. I'm gay. I've never had sex with anyone under the age of 18 (well... at least I haven't since I was over the age of 18) I've never known another gay person who would consider sexual predation of children in any way acceptable. I've never met another gay person who wouldn't drop a dime if they thought a child was being molested. I've never met another gay person who wouldn't step in to intercede while they waited for the dime they dropped to be noticed.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #243 June 28, 2008 Quote Oh (pun intended) jesus christ. Please stop lumping gays and pedophiles together. Relax, dude. This is just an example.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #244 June 28, 2008 Quote Or he would make us choose?? This ends up with the same dilemma - if the God does not want pedophiles, why would he created the people the way that some of them could make this choice? [irrelevant stuff about love skipped] Quote Im saying that it is possible that we dont understand anything about his ways, so how could it be so far off to say that he knows and learns in the same miraculous moment? You missing the point again. We're not talking about the real God; we're talking about the God you believe in. Do you believe the God is omnipotent and omniscient? Quote Maybe he did create us perfect, but part of being perfect is choosing the right thing all the time. Maybe the choices we make that we blame God for are actually really only choices that we make? If we were created perfect, we'd only be able to make right choices. The only difference between a priest and a thief created by God is the choice they make. Quote It must be nice to enjoy a lie...not too trustworthy though unfortunatley. It's not a lie. I'm 100% sure that I'm good, and I do not feel guilty. I'm sure even more than you're sure you following Jesus. Quote He sent himself, that is what is so miraculous, wonderous, and amazing. He sent himself to do what no other could do, to give us a message no other knew. The only emotion I experience is bewilderment. This is probably the weirdest possible thing to fix problems with your creation. Quote Goodness sakes George! LOL! I didnt know I was learning the ways of righteousness by using my turn signal and buckling my seatbelt! You now have my word. And if you donate me $100, you'll be in heaven. Quote Just because a man is blind, does not mean he cannot see., he just doesnt see with his eyes. Just because God is invisible, does not mean he is not there. How'd you know the God is invisible?* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rynodigsmusic 0 #245 June 28, 2008 This ends up with the same dilemma - if the God does not want pedophiles, why would he created the people the way that some of them could make this choice? Quote You missing the point again. We're not talking about the real God; we're talking about the God you believe in. Do you believe the God is omnipotent and omniscient? I had to look those words up. I have heard them before several times, but didnt quite know what they meant. I guess they are interesting definitions so that people can put a grasp on God. Me personally, I believe that is a good definition, but thats about it. I like to imagine God as the supreme miracle, the actual spirit of Life. Existing with the power of a miracle in every miraculous moment. Power beyond Power, the absolute birth of Power...see, you cant really define him, he reveals himself and his beautiful qualities to our hearts. I could try and define him to you, but I dont think you would understand...as words would never be able to. The closest I can get is the human definition of Love, to the very depth of what it reveals. Love seems to be the only thing that I can define him with in some way. Love is empowering on sooooooo many levels.Quote If we were created perfect, we'd only be able to make right choices. The only difference between a priest and a thief created by God is the choice they make. No, that is what you think perfection is. Maybe it is that we would only choose the right choices? The bible talks a bit about perfection. Jesus calls us to be perfect as God is perfect and James says again that a perfect man is one whos words do not condemn him. That is, judgment against another for the things you yourself are guilty for. False testimony ect... I believe that Jesus is the perfect example of perfect love, and so I follow him with all my heart. Why would God give us an example of anything else? He knows we wont attain it here, but, he knows the life we find and feel as we desire to attain it is just what we want. We all fail, and none of us are perfect like God, that is why we need him.Quote It's not a lie. I'm 100% sure that I'm good, and I do not feel guilty. I'm sure even more than you're sure you following Jesus. Ok, one thing the pharisees could not see is there own guilt. Guilt remains because we truly cannot see it. If you feel guilty about something, you know its there, but there is a guilt that stains the soul, that after time gets hidden but doesnt go away. This invisible guilt will find blame and bitterness, the two greatest ememys of peace. Guilt hides, just like blame and just like bitterness. Its why people need physcologists these days and they go back to old childhood memories ect... Or why some people NEVER SEE their own fault within destruction of a relationship. Both sides carry blame for the other, but fail to see their own. Truth is about seeing your fault, blame, and guilt, and it is the beginning of peace. Jesus says the truth will set you free, and I can testify to its power and peace. It literally is when the Lie meets the Truth.Quote Quote Goodness sakes George! LOL! I didnt know I was learning the ways of righteousness by using my turn signal and buckling my seatbelt! You now have my word. And if you donate me $100, you'll be in heaven. Quote LOL! How'd you know the God is invisible? Because I cannot see him with my eyes, I see him with my heart, and that, allows me to see him in everything. It is similar to when someone comes into the room and you just know something is wrong, but you dont know what it is unless it is revealed to you. Or even worse, when you dont know something is wrong and it is later revealed to you that there is. Just because you didnt see it, doesnt mean it wasnt there."We didn't start the fire" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,271 #246 July 1, 2008 QuoteYou'll have to take that up with Pascal. I didn't make the wager. Hey, Pascal! Your wager really sucks.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georgerussia 0 #247 July 2, 2008 Quote I had to look those words up. I have heard them before several times, but didnt quite know what they meant. It's strange because those are the words Christians use themselves. Quote I guess they are interesting definitions so that people can put a grasp on God. Me personally, I believe that is a good definition, but thats about it. I like to imagine God as the supreme miracle, the actual spirit of Life. Existing with the power of a miracle in every miraculous moment. Power beyond Power, the absolute birth of Power...see, you cant really define him, he reveals himself and his beautiful qualities to our hearts. I could try and define him to you, but I dont think you would understand...as words would never be able to. Looks like you're confusing the definition with what you like to imagine. This will not work, as you cannot base definition on your personal subjective feelings. Let me ask you a couple of simple questions: - Do you believe the God is omnipotent in terms that there is nothing the God cannot do? - Do you believe the God is omniscient in terms that the God knows everything (including what everyone did, what everyone is doing and what everyone will be doing tomorrow)? If possible, please give a short answer. Yes/no would be perfect. No sermons here please. Quote The closest I can get is the human definition of Love, to the very depth of what it reveals. Love seems to be the only thing that I can define him with in some way. Love is empowering on sooooooo many levels. Then your definition makes little sense if you tell people to follow God just because it "empowering and feels good". And it makes even less sense if you tell the people the God wants them to follow Jesus or they'll go to Hell. Quote No, that is what you think perfection is. Maybe it is that we would only choose the right choices? Yes. Look at your Jesus - has he ever made a wrong choice? According to you that's what you're trying to follow! Quote The bible talks a bit about perfection. Jesus calls us to be perfect as God is perfect and James says again that a perfect man is one whos words do not condemn him. I don't give shit what James said. He's not God nor son of the God, why should anyone ever listen to him? You'd better listen to your local minister - at least you could make sure his words were quoted properly. Quote That is, judgment against another for the things you yourself are guilty for. False testimony ect... I believe that Jesus is the perfect example of perfect love, and so I follow him with all my heart. Why would God give us an example of anything else? So you didn't answer the question - if your God wanted us to be perfect, why he didn't create us perfect? The God is obviously capable of creating perfect humans; why didn't he? Quote Ok, one thing the pharisees could not see is there own guilt. Guilt remains because we truly cannot see it. If you feel guilty about something, you know its there, but there is a guilt that stains the soul, that after time gets hidden but doesnt go away. This invisible guilt will find blame and bitterness, the two greatest ememys of peace. Guilt hides, just like blame and just like bitterness. Its why people need physcologists these days and they go back to old childhood memories ect... Well, I'm not pharisee, I don't suffer from invisible guilt, and I don't need a shrink. Could you please be more specific in your replies, and make it more relevant to the original quote? Quote Or why some people NEVER SEE their own fault within destruction of a relationship. it seems to be very America-specific things. It's not only in relationships - a lot of people here seem to generally blame everyone else for their own acts of stupidity. Just turn on your radio, and in 30 minutes you'll hear from another stupid idiot who wants to ban the school sport competitions because "his kids did not qualify to the sport team", or that the government should pay off his mortgage because "he signed the loan application without reading it". So far I have never seen anything like that in other few countries I lived and worked. And from history classes I know for sure it wasn't like that all the time; seems to be pretty recent innovation. Quote Both sides carry blame for the other, but fail to see their own. Truth is about seeing your fault, blame, and guilt, and it is the beginning of peace. Seeing your fault and admitting your mistakes is completely different from feeling guilty. The first is a requirement for improverment, and the second leads to depression. Believe me, one does not need to follow Jesus to become a better skydiver - but the ability to accept constructive critique is necessary. Quote Because I cannot see him with my eyes, I see him with my heart, and that, allows me to see him in everything. The heart cannot see anything, it's a blood pump. Any graduate with high school diploma should know that. So when you're talking about "seeing someone with your heart", you're talking nonsense. Could you please explain? Quote Just because you didnt see it, doesnt mean it wasnt there. So you believe in Zeus, Odin and so on? Just because you didnt see it, doesnt mean they aren't there, right?* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,672 #248 July 2, 2008 Quote Just because you didnt see it, doesnt mean it wasnt there. Quote-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So you believe in Zeus, Odin and so on? Just because you didnt see it, doesnt mean they aren't there, right? A quick archive search shows that various versions of that question have been asked dozens of times, and always you get an evasive answer or no answer at all. The reason is obvious - there is no more evidence in support the judeo-christian god than there is for the Flying Spaghetti Monster.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #249 July 2, 2008 But but you have to believe in Zues and repent before him before you can see the light and reap the benefits! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rynodigsmusic 0 #250 July 2, 2008 It's strange because those are the words Christians use themselves. >>>>God Is, take that for however you like. Explore love a little deeper and you may or may not understand. But try telling the couple in love that love is not alive, that it is just an emotion, that its not empowering...that it doesnt have the power to unlock the deepest most poetic parts of the heart. Explore love, but beware, love is something you have to let in, before you can even begin to understand its power over you. Quote Looks like you're confusing the definition with what you like to imagine. This will not work, as you cannot base definition on your personal subjective feelings.Quote >>>>Asking me what God is, is just like asking me what love is. Dont you understand that artists have been trying to capture and frame the power of love since the beginning of time??? Love only gives us moments and brief touches of its power, but power it is and it is what we let in...what we believe. Asking me what God is, is like asking me to tell you how much you love your children, I could never understand that. Asking me what God is, is like asking me what life is, like asking me to explain to you, a non believer, what a miracle is. My imagination was a gift of the Holy Spirit, a tool to seek to understand God more fully, in ways that are sacred to me. God reveals we are children and when he reveals himself to his children, his children learn greater and greater things about their Father. That is, a relationship grows from "infancy" to "maturity". In the realm of eternity, I am barely born and look forward to the deeper revelations in Christ. Quote The closest I can get is the human definition of Love, to the very depth of what it reveals. Love seems to be the only thing that I can define him with in some way. Love is empowering on sooooooo many levels. Then your definition makes little sense if you tell people to follow God just because it "empowering and feels good". And it makes even less sense if you tell the people the God wants them to follow Jesus or they'll go to Hell. Quote >>>>"Since what is known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them" QuoteNo, that is what you think perfection is. Maybe it is that we would only choose the right choices? Yes. Look at your Jesus - has he ever made a wrong choice? According to you that's what you're trying to follow! Quote >>>>What mistake do you think Jesus made???? Righteousness is Perfection. Why would the perfect God give us an example of imperfection? Perfection is not attainable here on earth, but, only perfection can be followed and never attained. There is no such thing as perfection on earth (besides Jesus), but there is such a thing as a perfect heart. There is purity, and purity is not reached by being sin free, but by being honest and truthfull. You believe you are not guilty of sin, while that is your right to believe that, it is most definitely false. If you have ever told a lie, you are guilty. But you will say, I dont believe in God therefore I never have sinned...that is between you and God, but just because you believe you are innocent, does not mean you are. The bible talks a bit about perfection. Jesus calls us to be perfect as God is perfect and James says again that a perfect man is one whos words do not condemn him. I don't give shit what James said. He's not God nor son of the God, why should anyone ever listen to him? You'd better listen to your local minister - at least you could make sure his words were quoted properly. Quote >>>>It doesnt matter who said it, it only matters if it is the truth. Even simpler. Ill ask if you ever told a lie, you say no. You just lied, and your own words condemned you to being a liar. But, Ill ask if you ever told a lie, and you say yes, then your own words have not condemned you. Though you have told a lie, you are no longer a liar if you have admitted it. But, what are some of the reasons people do not admit their lies? Now you get closer to the truth in someone, and you begin to see just how powerful societys EGO really is, and what it will do to defend itself. So you didn't answer the question - if your God wanted us to be perfect, why he didn't create us perfect? The God is obviously capable of creating perfect humans; why didn't he? Quote >>>>You still dont understand what I said? Perhaps he did create us perfect, but perfect into an imperfect world, so that perfection might be understood as truth rather than what the world thinks is perfect. Ask yourself what you deserve after understanding that life was a gift. Its like giving a child a present and them saying "I want more"! Or why some people NEVER SEE their own fault within destruction of a relationship. it seems to be very America-specific things. It's not only in relationships - a lot of people here seem to generally blame everyone else for their own acts of stupidity. Just turn on your radio, and in 30 minutes you'll hear from another stupid idiot who wants to ban the school sport competitions because "his kids did not qualify to the sport team", or that the government should pay off his mortgage because "he signed the loan application without reading it". So far I have never seen anything like that in other few countries I lived and worked. And from history classes I know for sure it wasn't like that all the time; seems to be pretty recent innovation. Quote >>>>Yes, and this blame carries bitterness that is not seen, and will never go away until it is. Both sides carry blame for the other, but fail to see their own. Truth is about seeing your fault, blame, and guilt, and it is the beginning of peace. Quote Seeing your fault and admitting your mistakes is completely different from feeling guilty. The first is a requirement for improverment, and the second leads to depression. Believe me, one does not need to follow Jesus to become a better skydiver - but the ability to accept constructive critique is necessary. Quote >>>>Not to be a better skydiver, probably better off following Spacelands Anomaly for that, but to be a man in commune with God takes truth. I mentioned that feeling guilty about something generally will provoke us to ask forgiveness or seek understanding....But, being guilty is what following Jesus reveals. He reveals our guilt, but fills us with his innocence so that we can commune with God. Simpler, just because you dont feel guilty, does not mean that you arent. I hate to say it, but you are guilty and standing condemned right now by your very own words. Quote Because I cannot see him with my eyes, I see him with my heart, and that, allows me to see him in everything. The heart cannot see anything, it's a blood pump. Any graduate with high school diploma should know that. So when you're talking about "seeing someone with your heart", you're talking nonsense. Could you please explain? Quote >>>>I have played music with alot of people in my time. I have played with educated, technical people, played with people who were really good at playing cover songs (well known songs ect...), but the greatest and most complete players are the ones who play from someplace deeper. They write riffs, lyrics, and progressions from someplace deep within themselves, where the mind is free and the soul is guided...its music that was just meant to be, or indeed already was. Its tapping into the "unknown" and making it "known". Im afraid you may not know what I am talking about. Its when an athelete is "in the zone", or a writer is in deep focus, or when all someone has left is faith, hope, and love. Its when I cant, becomes I can and lives are inspired and changed. On this level of depth is only the surface of Gods power in our lives....Only the surface. Like a thimbleful of the ocean. When it comes to God, my fear of him is strong, but the love he reveals is even stronger. God is the unknown, the absolute, the only, I am but a man in love with his greatest expression of love. I cannot come close to understanding the power that is in Jesus, but, I know that power loves me and that takes me deeper and deeper.Quote Just because you didnt see it, doesnt mean it wasnt there. So you believe in Zeus, Odin and so on? Just because you didnt see it, doesnt mean they aren't there, right?Quote >>>>Did you know that a man can only believe what he wants to? It literally is believe what you want, it is the only thing you can."We didn't start the fire" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Next Page 10 of 15 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. 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labrys 0 #242 June 28, 2008 QuoteBut it's obvious conclusion. If your God did not want gays or pedophiles, he'd create the people in the way they wouldn't even think about that. Oh (pun intended) jesus christ. Please stop lumping gays and pedophiles together. I'm gay. I've never had sex with anyone under the age of 18 (well... at least I haven't since I was over the age of 18) I've never known another gay person who would consider sexual predation of children in any way acceptable. I've never met another gay person who wouldn't drop a dime if they thought a child was being molested. I've never met another gay person who wouldn't step in to intercede while they waited for the dime they dropped to be noticed.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #243 June 28, 2008 Quote Oh (pun intended) jesus christ. Please stop lumping gays and pedophiles together. Relax, dude. This is just an example.* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #244 June 28, 2008 Quote Or he would make us choose?? This ends up with the same dilemma - if the God does not want pedophiles, why would he created the people the way that some of them could make this choice? [irrelevant stuff about love skipped] Quote Im saying that it is possible that we dont understand anything about his ways, so how could it be so far off to say that he knows and learns in the same miraculous moment? You missing the point again. We're not talking about the real God; we're talking about the God you believe in. Do you believe the God is omnipotent and omniscient? Quote Maybe he did create us perfect, but part of being perfect is choosing the right thing all the time. Maybe the choices we make that we blame God for are actually really only choices that we make? If we were created perfect, we'd only be able to make right choices. The only difference between a priest and a thief created by God is the choice they make. Quote It must be nice to enjoy a lie...not too trustworthy though unfortunatley. It's not a lie. I'm 100% sure that I'm good, and I do not feel guilty. I'm sure even more than you're sure you following Jesus. Quote He sent himself, that is what is so miraculous, wonderous, and amazing. He sent himself to do what no other could do, to give us a message no other knew. The only emotion I experience is bewilderment. This is probably the weirdest possible thing to fix problems with your creation. Quote Goodness sakes George! LOL! I didnt know I was learning the ways of righteousness by using my turn signal and buckling my seatbelt! You now have my word. And if you donate me $100, you'll be in heaven. Quote Just because a man is blind, does not mean he cannot see., he just doesnt see with his eyes. Just because God is invisible, does not mean he is not there. How'd you know the God is invisible?* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rynodigsmusic 0 #245 June 28, 2008 This ends up with the same dilemma - if the God does not want pedophiles, why would he created the people the way that some of them could make this choice? Quote You missing the point again. We're not talking about the real God; we're talking about the God you believe in. Do you believe the God is omnipotent and omniscient? I had to look those words up. I have heard them before several times, but didnt quite know what they meant. I guess they are interesting definitions so that people can put a grasp on God. Me personally, I believe that is a good definition, but thats about it. I like to imagine God as the supreme miracle, the actual spirit of Life. Existing with the power of a miracle in every miraculous moment. Power beyond Power, the absolute birth of Power...see, you cant really define him, he reveals himself and his beautiful qualities to our hearts. I could try and define him to you, but I dont think you would understand...as words would never be able to. The closest I can get is the human definition of Love, to the very depth of what it reveals. Love seems to be the only thing that I can define him with in some way. Love is empowering on sooooooo many levels.Quote If we were created perfect, we'd only be able to make right choices. The only difference between a priest and a thief created by God is the choice they make. No, that is what you think perfection is. Maybe it is that we would only choose the right choices? The bible talks a bit about perfection. Jesus calls us to be perfect as God is perfect and James says again that a perfect man is one whos words do not condemn him. That is, judgment against another for the things you yourself are guilty for. False testimony ect... I believe that Jesus is the perfect example of perfect love, and so I follow him with all my heart. Why would God give us an example of anything else? He knows we wont attain it here, but, he knows the life we find and feel as we desire to attain it is just what we want. We all fail, and none of us are perfect like God, that is why we need him.Quote It's not a lie. I'm 100% sure that I'm good, and I do not feel guilty. I'm sure even more than you're sure you following Jesus. Ok, one thing the pharisees could not see is there own guilt. Guilt remains because we truly cannot see it. If you feel guilty about something, you know its there, but there is a guilt that stains the soul, that after time gets hidden but doesnt go away. This invisible guilt will find blame and bitterness, the two greatest ememys of peace. Guilt hides, just like blame and just like bitterness. Its why people need physcologists these days and they go back to old childhood memories ect... Or why some people NEVER SEE their own fault within destruction of a relationship. Both sides carry blame for the other, but fail to see their own. Truth is about seeing your fault, blame, and guilt, and it is the beginning of peace. Jesus says the truth will set you free, and I can testify to its power and peace. It literally is when the Lie meets the Truth.Quote Quote Goodness sakes George! LOL! I didnt know I was learning the ways of righteousness by using my turn signal and buckling my seatbelt! You now have my word. And if you donate me $100, you'll be in heaven. Quote LOL! How'd you know the God is invisible? Because I cannot see him with my eyes, I see him with my heart, and that, allows me to see him in everything. It is similar to when someone comes into the room and you just know something is wrong, but you dont know what it is unless it is revealed to you. Or even worse, when you dont know something is wrong and it is later revealed to you that there is. Just because you didnt see it, doesnt mean it wasnt there."We didn't start the fire" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,271 #246 July 1, 2008 QuoteYou'll have to take that up with Pascal. I didn't make the wager. Hey, Pascal! Your wager really sucks.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #247 July 2, 2008 Quote I had to look those words up. I have heard them before several times, but didnt quite know what they meant. It's strange because those are the words Christians use themselves. Quote I guess they are interesting definitions so that people can put a grasp on God. Me personally, I believe that is a good definition, but thats about it. I like to imagine God as the supreme miracle, the actual spirit of Life. Existing with the power of a miracle in every miraculous moment. Power beyond Power, the absolute birth of Power...see, you cant really define him, he reveals himself and his beautiful qualities to our hearts. I could try and define him to you, but I dont think you would understand...as words would never be able to. Looks like you're confusing the definition with what you like to imagine. This will not work, as you cannot base definition on your personal subjective feelings. Let me ask you a couple of simple questions: - Do you believe the God is omnipotent in terms that there is nothing the God cannot do? - Do you believe the God is omniscient in terms that the God knows everything (including what everyone did, what everyone is doing and what everyone will be doing tomorrow)? If possible, please give a short answer. Yes/no would be perfect. No sermons here please. Quote The closest I can get is the human definition of Love, to the very depth of what it reveals. Love seems to be the only thing that I can define him with in some way. Love is empowering on sooooooo many levels. Then your definition makes little sense if you tell people to follow God just because it "empowering and feels good". And it makes even less sense if you tell the people the God wants them to follow Jesus or they'll go to Hell. Quote No, that is what you think perfection is. Maybe it is that we would only choose the right choices? Yes. Look at your Jesus - has he ever made a wrong choice? According to you that's what you're trying to follow! Quote The bible talks a bit about perfection. Jesus calls us to be perfect as God is perfect and James says again that a perfect man is one whos words do not condemn him. I don't give shit what James said. He's not God nor son of the God, why should anyone ever listen to him? You'd better listen to your local minister - at least you could make sure his words were quoted properly. Quote That is, judgment against another for the things you yourself are guilty for. False testimony ect... I believe that Jesus is the perfect example of perfect love, and so I follow him with all my heart. Why would God give us an example of anything else? So you didn't answer the question - if your God wanted us to be perfect, why he didn't create us perfect? The God is obviously capable of creating perfect humans; why didn't he? Quote Ok, one thing the pharisees could not see is there own guilt. Guilt remains because we truly cannot see it. If you feel guilty about something, you know its there, but there is a guilt that stains the soul, that after time gets hidden but doesnt go away. This invisible guilt will find blame and bitterness, the two greatest ememys of peace. Guilt hides, just like blame and just like bitterness. Its why people need physcologists these days and they go back to old childhood memories ect... Well, I'm not pharisee, I don't suffer from invisible guilt, and I don't need a shrink. Could you please be more specific in your replies, and make it more relevant to the original quote? Quote Or why some people NEVER SEE their own fault within destruction of a relationship. it seems to be very America-specific things. It's not only in relationships - a lot of people here seem to generally blame everyone else for their own acts of stupidity. Just turn on your radio, and in 30 minutes you'll hear from another stupid idiot who wants to ban the school sport competitions because "his kids did not qualify to the sport team", or that the government should pay off his mortgage because "he signed the loan application without reading it". So far I have never seen anything like that in other few countries I lived and worked. And from history classes I know for sure it wasn't like that all the time; seems to be pretty recent innovation. Quote Both sides carry blame for the other, but fail to see their own. Truth is about seeing your fault, blame, and guilt, and it is the beginning of peace. Seeing your fault and admitting your mistakes is completely different from feeling guilty. The first is a requirement for improverment, and the second leads to depression. Believe me, one does not need to follow Jesus to become a better skydiver - but the ability to accept constructive critique is necessary. Quote Because I cannot see him with my eyes, I see him with my heart, and that, allows me to see him in everything. The heart cannot see anything, it's a blood pump. Any graduate with high school diploma should know that. So when you're talking about "seeing someone with your heart", you're talking nonsense. Could you please explain? Quote Just because you didnt see it, doesnt mean it wasnt there. So you believe in Zeus, Odin and so on? Just because you didnt see it, doesnt mean they aren't there, right?* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,672 #248 July 2, 2008 Quote Just because you didnt see it, doesnt mean it wasnt there. Quote-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So you believe in Zeus, Odin and so on? Just because you didnt see it, doesnt mean they aren't there, right? A quick archive search shows that various versions of that question have been asked dozens of times, and always you get an evasive answer or no answer at all. The reason is obvious - there is no more evidence in support the judeo-christian god than there is for the Flying Spaghetti Monster.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #249 July 2, 2008 But but you have to believe in Zues and repent before him before you can see the light and reap the benefits! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rynodigsmusic 0 #250 July 2, 2008 It's strange because those are the words Christians use themselves. >>>>God Is, take that for however you like. Explore love a little deeper and you may or may not understand. But try telling the couple in love that love is not alive, that it is just an emotion, that its not empowering...that it doesnt have the power to unlock the deepest most poetic parts of the heart. Explore love, but beware, love is something you have to let in, before you can even begin to understand its power over you. Quote Looks like you're confusing the definition with what you like to imagine. This will not work, as you cannot base definition on your personal subjective feelings.Quote >>>>Asking me what God is, is just like asking me what love is. Dont you understand that artists have been trying to capture and frame the power of love since the beginning of time??? Love only gives us moments and brief touches of its power, but power it is and it is what we let in...what we believe. Asking me what God is, is like asking me to tell you how much you love your children, I could never understand that. Asking me what God is, is like asking me what life is, like asking me to explain to you, a non believer, what a miracle is. My imagination was a gift of the Holy Spirit, a tool to seek to understand God more fully, in ways that are sacred to me. God reveals we are children and when he reveals himself to his children, his children learn greater and greater things about their Father. That is, a relationship grows from "infancy" to "maturity". In the realm of eternity, I am barely born and look forward to the deeper revelations in Christ. Quote The closest I can get is the human definition of Love, to the very depth of what it reveals. Love seems to be the only thing that I can define him with in some way. Love is empowering on sooooooo many levels. Then your definition makes little sense if you tell people to follow God just because it "empowering and feels good". And it makes even less sense if you tell the people the God wants them to follow Jesus or they'll go to Hell. Quote >>>>"Since what is known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them" QuoteNo, that is what you think perfection is. Maybe it is that we would only choose the right choices? Yes. Look at your Jesus - has he ever made a wrong choice? According to you that's what you're trying to follow! Quote >>>>What mistake do you think Jesus made???? Righteousness is Perfection. Why would the perfect God give us an example of imperfection? Perfection is not attainable here on earth, but, only perfection can be followed and never attained. There is no such thing as perfection on earth (besides Jesus), but there is such a thing as a perfect heart. There is purity, and purity is not reached by being sin free, but by being honest and truthfull. You believe you are not guilty of sin, while that is your right to believe that, it is most definitely false. If you have ever told a lie, you are guilty. But you will say, I dont believe in God therefore I never have sinned...that is between you and God, but just because you believe you are innocent, does not mean you are. The bible talks a bit about perfection. Jesus calls us to be perfect as God is perfect and James says again that a perfect man is one whos words do not condemn him. I don't give shit what James said. He's not God nor son of the God, why should anyone ever listen to him? You'd better listen to your local minister - at least you could make sure his words were quoted properly. Quote >>>>It doesnt matter who said it, it only matters if it is the truth. Even simpler. Ill ask if you ever told a lie, you say no. You just lied, and your own words condemned you to being a liar. But, Ill ask if you ever told a lie, and you say yes, then your own words have not condemned you. Though you have told a lie, you are no longer a liar if you have admitted it. But, what are some of the reasons people do not admit their lies? Now you get closer to the truth in someone, and you begin to see just how powerful societys EGO really is, and what it will do to defend itself. So you didn't answer the question - if your God wanted us to be perfect, why he didn't create us perfect? The God is obviously capable of creating perfect humans; why didn't he? Quote >>>>You still dont understand what I said? Perhaps he did create us perfect, but perfect into an imperfect world, so that perfection might be understood as truth rather than what the world thinks is perfect. Ask yourself what you deserve after understanding that life was a gift. Its like giving a child a present and them saying "I want more"! Or why some people NEVER SEE their own fault within destruction of a relationship. it seems to be very America-specific things. It's not only in relationships - a lot of people here seem to generally blame everyone else for their own acts of stupidity. Just turn on your radio, and in 30 minutes you'll hear from another stupid idiot who wants to ban the school sport competitions because "his kids did not qualify to the sport team", or that the government should pay off his mortgage because "he signed the loan application without reading it". So far I have never seen anything like that in other few countries I lived and worked. And from history classes I know for sure it wasn't like that all the time; seems to be pretty recent innovation. Quote >>>>Yes, and this blame carries bitterness that is not seen, and will never go away until it is. Both sides carry blame for the other, but fail to see their own. Truth is about seeing your fault, blame, and guilt, and it is the beginning of peace. Quote Seeing your fault and admitting your mistakes is completely different from feeling guilty. The first is a requirement for improverment, and the second leads to depression. Believe me, one does not need to follow Jesus to become a better skydiver - but the ability to accept constructive critique is necessary. Quote >>>>Not to be a better skydiver, probably better off following Spacelands Anomaly for that, but to be a man in commune with God takes truth. I mentioned that feeling guilty about something generally will provoke us to ask forgiveness or seek understanding....But, being guilty is what following Jesus reveals. He reveals our guilt, but fills us with his innocence so that we can commune with God. Simpler, just because you dont feel guilty, does not mean that you arent. I hate to say it, but you are guilty and standing condemned right now by your very own words. Quote Because I cannot see him with my eyes, I see him with my heart, and that, allows me to see him in everything. The heart cannot see anything, it's a blood pump. Any graduate with high school diploma should know that. So when you're talking about "seeing someone with your heart", you're talking nonsense. Could you please explain? Quote >>>>I have played music with alot of people in my time. I have played with educated, technical people, played with people who were really good at playing cover songs (well known songs ect...), but the greatest and most complete players are the ones who play from someplace deeper. They write riffs, lyrics, and progressions from someplace deep within themselves, where the mind is free and the soul is guided...its music that was just meant to be, or indeed already was. Its tapping into the "unknown" and making it "known". Im afraid you may not know what I am talking about. Its when an athelete is "in the zone", or a writer is in deep focus, or when all someone has left is faith, hope, and love. Its when I cant, becomes I can and lives are inspired and changed. On this level of depth is only the surface of Gods power in our lives....Only the surface. Like a thimbleful of the ocean. When it comes to God, my fear of him is strong, but the love he reveals is even stronger. God is the unknown, the absolute, the only, I am but a man in love with his greatest expression of love. I cannot come close to understanding the power that is in Jesus, but, I know that power loves me and that takes me deeper and deeper.Quote Just because you didnt see it, doesnt mean it wasnt there. So you believe in Zeus, Odin and so on? Just because you didnt see it, doesnt mean they aren't there, right?Quote >>>>Did you know that a man can only believe what he wants to? It literally is believe what you want, it is the only thing you can."We didn't start the fire" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Next Page 10 of 15 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. 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