An Atheist Speaks

[JackC 0]

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http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/religion-morality/#TweCen

Have a read of this. It studies a bit of what you said in your last sentance.

Perhaps I should expand my point. Religion is not a good source for moral philosophy. Most religions have some guidelines of pretty dubious morality - stoning adulterers is buit one example. Now even if religion has been the basis of early laws and I don't doubt that it has, I contend that those laws would have evolved anyway even if religion had not been present, like all other laws have. Certianly the development of modern laws is independent of religion and is the better for it. If you took away christianity and all other religions, chaos would not ensue.

[SpeedRacer 1]

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If you took away christianity and all other religions, chaos would not ensue.

True. In fact, it has been demonstrated.

Communists removed religion, and had a very strict and orderly society in many ways.

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[vortexring 0]

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Western culture is built on christian morals; even if you're not christian -

No it's not. That is, as stated, bollocks.

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if you take away christianity, you take away our Western morals,

Utter, complete, unadulterated, bullshit.

Well, seeing as I'm not an expert on religion and you are, why not take some time to explain your reasoning then, instead of being rude?



edit: or are you still upset when I said this the other day:

"Your attitude hit a nerve with me. I'm no member of the God Squad, and despite having a few doubts myself...there'll be a few people behind me at the Pearly gates I reckon, as I'm trying to bluff my way in, what hit a nerve is this:

The amount of people who put an intellectual slant to their (dis)belief. It's as if they're so smart they know better and the believers are, of course, below their superiority. It's arrogance. Like the people at the opposite end of the spectrum, neither of you actually know.

So like all arrogant people, you can all just fuck off. If you wish to express your opinions to gain knowledge, fine. To take the higher ground over something you don't actually know, but just have an over-inflated opinion of.............

That surely means you're gay."

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[vortexring 0]

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What would you recommend?

Common fucking sense.

I'm an atheist, but I don't require an imaginary friend to tell me it's wrong to kill, rape or steal. My own inner dialogue does that.

That dialogue seems to have been very quiet in the Catholic church as it systematically allowed the sexual abuse of children, and subsequently threatened the victims and protected the pedophile priests.

That Christian moral code seemed a bit lacking there don't you think ? Should have used my nice pagan rede, remember ?

Be it harm none, do what thy wilt shall be the whole of the law

If we all lived by this, we'd have no need for your corrupt religious "moral" code and associated supernatural babble.

Sure, it's a reasonable code.

Unfortunately a lot of people don't apply their common fucking sense as they should, so I still maintain there's a need for moral guidance.

Don't you take moral guidance from your pagan statement?

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[JackC 0]

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Unfortunately a lot of people don't apply their common fucking sense as they should, so I still maintain there's a need for moral guidance.

And how do you propose to implement this moral guidance? You can't make me believe in god any more than you can make me believe I'm a tree. Threats from beyond the grave won't do squat.

[SpeedRacer 1]

nobody should force anyone else to believe shit. that goes for atheists too.

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[vortexring 0]

Hey, relax. I've no intention of making you or anyone else believe in God. I'm only expressing an opinion I have on the matter - I've certainly got my doubts too.

But I feel atheism is wrong, and that people need some form of moral guidance.

Read this:

"An eminent historian described religion as a "faculty of human nature". That the perversion of this faculty has contributed to much of the confusion in society and the conflicts in and between individuals can hardly be denied. But neither can any fair-minded observer discount the preponderating influence exerted by religion on the vital expressions of civilization. Furthermore, its indispensability to social order has repeatedly been demonstrated by its direct effect on laws and morality."

Now that just about sums up what I feel on the matter. And it also explains what I mean by the chaos, far better than I'm able to articulate.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[JackC 0]

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If you took away christianity and all other religions, chaos would not ensue.

True. In fact, it has been demonstrated.

Communists removed religion, and had a very strict and orderly society in many ways.

Well, they removed the public display of religion. I would guess that subsequent generations that grew up in an environment free from public displays of religion would then be largely atheist. I somehow doubt the faithful suddenly had a change of heart just because Marx made some comment equating opiates and religion.

[vortexring 0]

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If you took away christianity and all other religions, chaos would not ensue.

True. In fact, it has been demonstrated.

Communists removed religion, and had a very strict and orderly society in many ways.

Yeah, until it fucking disintegtrated.

edit: sorry, thought you were talking about USSR rather than communism in general. Would you rather live in a communist country or a christian based country, such as where you live now?

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[JackC 0]

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But I feel atheism is wrong, and that people need some form of moral guidance.

I'll agree with the second half of that statement. Some form of moral guidance is good especially in the formative years. But the first half... puhleeze

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"An eminent historian described religion as a "faculty of human nature". That the perversion of this faculty has contributed to much of the confusion in society and the conflicts in and between individuals can hardly be denied. But neither can any fair-minded observer discount the preponderating influence exerted by religion on the vital expressions of civilization. Furthermore, its indispensability to social order has repeatedly been demonstrated by its direct effect on laws and morality."

Now that just about sums up what I feel on the matter. And it also explains what I mean by the chaos, far better than I'm able to articulate.

Well, is it the perversion of religion that leads to conflict or just religion itself? How do you tell a perverted religion from a unperverted one anyway? And I'd bet the farm on religion being completely dispensable for social order and morality. I'm living proof of that.

[SpeedRacer 1]

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If you took away christianity and all other religions, chaos would not ensue.

True. In fact, it has been demonstrated.

Communists removed religion, and had a very strict and orderly society in many ways.

Yeah, until it fucking disintegtrated.

?

That was my point. Forcibly removing religion did not result in some wonderful Utopia.

In fact, the movement that finally brought down the USSR was in no small part religious inspired (I'm referring to Poland, and the influence of Pope John Paul II and of course Lech Walesa). The Pope denounced totalitarian communism because it degrades and denies the dignity and value of the human individual.

A couple of quote from Pope JPII:

"Pervading nationalism imposes its dominion on man today in many different forms and with an aggressiveness that spares no one. The challenge that is already with us is the temptation to accept as true freedom what in reality is only a new form of slavery."

"Science can purify religion from error and superstition. Religion can purify science from idolatry and false absolutes. "

"The historical experience of socialist countries has sadly demonstrated that collectivism does not do away with alienation but rather increases it, adding to it a lack of basic necessities and economic inefficiency. "

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[nerdgirl 0]

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Unfortunately a lot of people don't apply their common fucking sense as they should, so I still maintain there's a need for moral guidance.

I agree that there is a need within civilization for common codes of ethical behavior. Norms can be incredibly powerful!

It's argued that norms against the use of chemical weapons kept them from being used in WWII because they were seen as so abhorrent to civilized world after use in WWI.

While many people do derive ethical and moral codes of behavior from religious principles, one can also derive ethical & moral codes of behavior from the rule of law, from Enlightenment principles of personal liberty and personal responsibility and/or from any number of a-religious philosophical approaches, e.g., from Aristotle to Descartes to Ayn Rand to Existentialism (authenticity & Da Sein) to Heinlein to Star Trek (the 'prime directive').

There is no requirement for belief in a monotheistic deity or pantheistic deity system in order to behave morally.

As has been witnessed throughout history belief in a mono-theistic deity or pan-theistic deity system does not preclude humans from acting a-morally or immorally.

As Kurt Vonnegut succinctly described: “being a Humanist means trying to behave decently without expectation of rewards or punishment after you are dead. Humanism is a progressive lifestance that, without supernaturalism, affirms our ability and responsibility to lead ethical lives of personal fulfillment that aspire to the greater good of humanity.” Im-ever-ho, that’s the ultimate in personal responsibility: behavior because it’s normatively right, without motivation or expectation of material or immaterial compensation. How do you get it: existing in ta state of security of personhood and meeting basic needs (lack of security, a la Somalia, breeds anarchy; anarchy breeds very un-moral behavior), role models (parents and others), liberal education (not in the political sense, in the Age of Enlightement sense).

VR/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[tkhayes 140]

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But I feel atheism is wrong, and that people need some form of moral guidance.

there you go again, tying morality to religion. I am a moral and ethical person. I support NO religion. To say what you just said would indicate that I have no (or lesser) moral values and in fact, I think I have very high moral values. No, I did not always, but I have grown and learned as my life has progressed.

morals, religion and atheism are mutually exclusive and have nothing to do with one another.

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"An eminent historian described religion as a "faculty of human nature". That the perversion of this faculty has contributed to much of the confusion in society and the conflicts in and between individuals can hardly be denied. But neither can any fair-minded observer discount the preponderating influence exerted by religion on the vital expressions of civilization. Furthermore, its indispensability to social order has repeatedly been demonstrated by its direct effect on laws and morality."

try this:
"An eminent historian described COMMON SENSE as a "faculty of human nature". That the perversion of this faculty (COMMON SENSE) has contributed to much of the confusion in society and the conflicts in and between individuals can hardly be denied. But neither can any fair-minded observer discount the preponderating influence exerted by COMMON SENSE on the vital expressions of civilization. Furthermore, its (COMMON SENSE) indispensability to social order has repeatedly been demonstrated by its direct effect on laws and morality."

does that make me a soon-to-be eminent historian?

I need no religion to tell me what moral beliefs are. when I stole a pack of gum when I was 6 years old, my Dad whacked me good, put me in bed, spent an hour telling me what was right and wrong. I got it. God/religion/Allah was never mentioned. He didn't go to church either.....

TK

[tkhayes 140]

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Yeah, until it fucking disintegtrated.

edit: sorry, thought you were talking about USSR rather than communism in general. Would you rather live in a communist country or a christian based country, such as where you live now?

Communism is still alive in parts of the world, and where it fell apart, it certainly did not fall apart due to a desire for 'religion'

And no I would not want to live in a communist country, but not for the reasons that you assume. (lack of religion)
TK

[vortexring 0]

Right - it's too late now, I'm off. I'll get back to you tomorrow - Slaughterhouse 5 was a good read though....

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[gjhdiver 0]

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Don't you take moral guidance from your pagan statement?

Absolutely. However, it's one that is simple, straighforward, and not based in superstition. It relies on personal responsibilty to act in a way that maximises personal freedom as long as it doesn't harm anyone else. As an example, you're not going to see swarms of pagans and atheists swarming down in jihad on you because you want to marry someone of the same sex. (Unless there's an open bar at the wedding).

I'm not going to try to enact it into law, and I'm not going to force it on anyone else.

[jcd11235 0]

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As Kurt Vonnegut succinctly described: “being a Humanist means trying to behave decently without expectation of rewards or punishment after you are dead. Humanism is a progressive lifestance that, without supernaturalism, affirms our ability and responsibility to lead ethical lives of personal fulfillment that aspire to the greater good of humanity.” Im-ever-ho, that’s the ultimate in personal responsibility: behavior because it’s normatively right, without motivation or expectation of material or immaterial compensation.

I just wish to serve 42.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[thirdworld19 0]

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What would you recommend?

Try Robert A. Heinlein:
(Paraphrased)
1) That which is good for you is morally superior to that which is not.
2) That which is good for your family is morally superior to that which is good for you.
3) That which is good for your community is morally superior to that which is good for your family.
4) That which is good for your country is morally superior to that which is good for your community.
5) That which is good for the species is morally superior to that which is good for your country.

RAH is my god.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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RAH is my god.

VERY GOOD.

[jakee 1,257]

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Well, seeing as I'm not an expert on religion and you are, why not take some time to explain your reasoning then, instead of being rude?

You first mate.

All that you have done so far is assert that you think religion is neccessary. If you can come up with any explanation why, then I'll construct an argument against it. Until then I'll just keep calling bullshit.

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edit: or are you still upset when I said this the other day:

I wasn't upset in the first place - I just like swearing

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[maadmax 0]

All that you have done so far is assert that you think religion is neccessary. If you can come up with any explanation why, then I'll construct an argument against it. Until then I'll just keep calling bullshit.***

The classic allegorical novel "Lord of the Flies" explains the need very well. Without an understanding of a higher order we revert to "survival of the fittest". Spiritual pursuit is what sets us apart from the rest of the animal kingdom.


______________________________________

[jakee 1,257]

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The classic allegorical novel "Lord of the Flies" explains the need very well. Without an understanding of a higher order we revert to "survival of the fittest". Spiritual pursuit is what sets us apart from the rest of the animal kingdom.

Sorry dude, but a fictional work which assumes the truth of your argument is no kind of explanation at all.

Give me something that backs up the assertions in your second and third sentences, don't just blindly make the assertions.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[vortexring 0]

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Well, seeing as I'm not an expert on religion and you are, why not take some time to explain your reasoning then, instead of being rude?

You first mate.

All that you have done so far is assert that you think religion is neccessary. If you can come up with any explanation why, then I'll construct an argument against it. Until then I'll just keep calling bullshit.

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edit: or are you still upset when I said this the other day:

I wasn't upset in the first place - I just like swearing

Shit response Jakee. I insist; you first.....

My assertion is difficult to quantify. It isn't exactly something I've given a great deal of study. It just is. It's something I feel. And like I said earlier, I've certainly got doubts myself, but what puts me more towards the believing side is simply how I feel.

How do I explain that, without causing a shitstorm amongst all the atheists who take delight in being all-knowing in something they don't know the truth behind either? Is it me coming across as all-knowing too, from my similiar, unprovable point of view?

So in that sense, we know just as much as the other. And of course that applies to everybody in matters concerning whether God exists or not. Nobody knows.

So therefore, you'll find I won't call utter bullshit on someones atheist beliefs. I don't know. I might disagree through what my ideas on the matter are, but the situation dictates an open mind in my opinion.

It's surprising how so many famous intelligent people didn't and don't believe in religion, through history and today. Who would I be to argue? I'm not a practicing christian for a start, neither have I studied theology. So it's a difficult position to debate from; a deep routed feeling that I genuinely believe in 'A' God. That properly applied, religion is for the common good of us all.

It's especially difficult having noticed that most places I've looked at on the 'net to help articulate my views are in actual fact sites concerned with arguing over his non-existance. And it seems remarkably easy to do. There are numerous biblical tales that make no sense, that contradict and what have you. So as an atheist you have much ammunition to argue your points. But there are still numerous passages that have important points to make, although these rarely seem to crop up in discussions.

So whether you cry bullshit to my points of view or not isn't really applicable. You might have your deep seated beliefs but you know about the existance of God just as much as myself, or anyone else.

So don't be rude.

What is useful though, is that again, it's educational for me. Now, as I mentioned earlier, you seem quite the expert on the matter, so why not explain your points of view? And as I alluded to earlier, I'm also sure they'll come across as logical and no doubt articulate in comparison to my half assed assertions. But that's good. So whilst my assertions are made from perhaps an area of poor understanding and knowledge, I'll make them because it's what I feel.

And it's something I'd like to look into a bit deeper and understand better.

I've certainly no intention of changing anyones opinion over their beliefs over God so I'm puzzled over the 'emotional' responses I'm getting.Is atheism some kind of fashion these days? Are people who believe in God setting themselves up for ridicule? That's ridiculous in itself.

Every year it seems our nations become more and more immoral. Catholic priests get mentioned a lot here. The countless crimes to humanity caused through various religions get mentioned a lot to. But it isn't a direct consequence of religion. It's a direct consequence of a human sin, wrong doing or misapplication of religion or however you might like to phrase it.

But I guess I'm blethering on a bit now. I've seen a few people die now in my life. I've also seen both my children being born. The feelings from these experiences strengthened my belief in an afterlife of some form or other - therefore of a God. Again, it's a bit difficult to explain why - but then, I didn't exactly run off to a church to worship...I said a prayer and then got pissed at the first opportunity.

But to get to the point, I've got numerous doubts myself, and have my own idea of what it might be all about. Nonetheless, it's a belief in God and religion being properly used as it should be.

So it's fine if you think it's all bullshit. It's fine to argue over every point I've made. It's also fine I might not be able to provide a strong argument back.

But there isn't any excuse for being continually rude. You never know, you may well bump into me someday.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[jakee 1,257]

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My assertion is difficult to quantify. It isn't exactly something I've given a great deal of study. It just is. It's something I feel. And like I said earlier, I've certainly got doubts myself, but what puts me more towards the believing side is simply how I feel.

Why should I take seriously your assertion that "religion is neccessary for a moral society" if you don't even know why you think it yourself? If you don't even know what your reasons are for thinking it how can I come up with relevant objections to your particular view?

Without any of that information I'll just stick with saying that I'm an atheist, raised by agnostic/atheist parents with never a single mention of a god or the lack of god at any stage of my moral upbringing, yet (shock horror) I have somehow managed to grasp the concept of right and wrong. Explain that one.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[vortexring 0]

Is there any need? Did I assert all people brought up without religion would be immoral and have no idea over what's right and wrong?

That would be insane.

As it would be equally insane to claim all people brought up religiously would be amoral.

But I can read an interesting statement from your post: "Without any of that information I'll just stick with saying that I'm an atheist"

Like I explained earlier, I can't provide you with that information. Apart from demonstrating your closed mind to the idea, I've no intention of changing your beliefs.

As to my assertion; it's through my continual observation of an increasingly immoral society which
brings around my opinion.

There are numerous answers to specific issues but I believe the intrinsic reason is through moral guidance. And I believe only religion can provide this.

In your case you cite your agnostic/atheist parents, and that's fine. But if you address our society there are these factors which help cause my beliefs:

1) Our society is becoming ever more immoral, deceitful, selfish, individualistic, etc, etc.

2) The numbers of British people who believe in God, go to church, etc, have significantly reduced.

Simple as that.

It's not the religion and believing in God that makes the individual good. It's how it effects the communities and society as a whole, hence my belief.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'