Anger Acceptable for Atheists

[billvon 2,427]

>What is a moral atheist?

Like a moral christian but with fewer crosses.

> It seems that if evolutionary principles are all that drives the universe . . .

Where did you get that idea? Evolution is like erosion, a process that we can observe and understand and shapes a part of our world. It no more "drives" the universe than erosion does.

>No where in nature, apart from our own struggle, are any of the
>concepts of any consideration. On a purely evolutionary basis, why
>are we destroying the planet to up hold them?

Animals show compassion, a thirst for justice, altruism and love. Chimpanzees form coalitions, become angry at the "other" coalition and later seek reconciliation. Dolphins will put themselves in danger to help other beached dolphins (and even whales!) Dogs show clear grief when a loved one (canine or human) dies, and will often grieve so much they become sick themselves. Rats will spare other rats from being shocked even if it means they don't get food. Many animals (including dogs) have a sense of justice; if they feel that another animal is not "playing fair" (i.e. eating more than their share of food, nipping hard during play) they will shun that animal. Bonobos will sacrifice their own safety or food to help other injured monkeys. Pack animals have a sense of fairness, and often will not attack other pack members under a certain age, who are injured, or who go into a submissive pose. Baboons show 'reciprocity' and will cooperate in tasks so that first one, then another individual benefits while the others 'wait their turn.'

Thinking that we are unique among the animal world is a big mistake. We have very big brains, and can thus codify and refine our morality into laws and religious rules, which is something animals can't do. But we share the basic desires for justice with them.

(There are, of course, a great many animals who show cruelty and greed just as there are people who show these traits. Difference there is that animals don't have police, courts or jails.)

>A self deified individual , who dictates reality for God or who dictates reality
>in the absence of God is a dangerous animal. He can selfrighteously
>exercise what ever brand of evil he can come up with, either in the name
>of God, or because God does not exist.

Exactly. Which means evil and/or good is independent of religion. Religion both gives good men something to come together over, and gives bad men a reason to perform their brand of evil.

[maadmax 0]

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A self deified individual , who dictates reality for God or who dictates reality in the absence of God is a dangerous animal.

Would you consider Christ to have been such an individual?

What I think about Christ has been summed up very eloquently elsewhere . "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and Word was God. ... and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us."

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[jakee 1,257]

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What is a moral atheist?

A atheist who is moral.

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It seems that if evolutionary principles are all that drives the universe,

Evolutionary principles are all that drive evolution.

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Instead I hear you all saying NO!!, WE MUST DO UNTO OTHERS AS WE WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO US, WE FEEL THAT THERE IS A CLEAR DISTINCTION BETWEEN RIGHT AND WRONG AND WRONG MUST NOT PREVAIL, TRUTH AND JUSTICE ARE CHERISHED IDEALS, and on and on. No where in nature, apart from our own struggle, are any of the concepts of any consideration.

Why do you think we should only act as we see nature acting?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,257]

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Good job! You are a winner! You got my point!

Your point was to contradict your own argument? You might want to work on that.

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A self deified individual , who dictates reality for God or who dictates reality in the absence of God is a dangerous animal. He can selfrighteously exercise what ever brand of evil he can come up with, either in the name of God, or because God does not exist.

So what you're saying is, whether you believe in god or not, and by extension or whether god even exists or not has abaolutely no bearing on whether a person can be moral.

So, what were you arguing about again?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Lindsey 0]

So what you're saying is, whether you believe in god or not, and by extension or whether god even exists or not has abaolutely no bearing on whether a person can be moral.

So, what were you arguing about again?

It's getting cumbersome trying to follow it.

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[kallend 1,647]

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First off, we are social animal with an evolutionary imperative to co-operate, secondly we are intelligent enough to develop our own moral philosophy. Can you honestly tell me you'd be out there doing whatever the hell you wanted no matter who you hurt if it wasn't for a belief in God? If that's actually true then you might well be a sociopathic bastard. You might want to get that checked out.


To review what social animals are capable just look back in history 60 years and thank somebody that you are not writing your statement in German.

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I'd also like to see you explain why atheists make up such a low percentage of the prison population. If what you say has even a shred of truth to it then atheists should be stacked up to the ceilings. Luckily, of course, you are actually talking complete crap ***


... it is difficult to find an atheist in a fox hole.

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You have proof of that?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[maadmax 0]

So what you're saying is, whether you believe in god or not, and by extension or whether god even exists or not has abaolutely no bearing on whether a person can be moral.

So, what were you arguing about again?

[Lindsey 0]

When God is absent from ones reality, some type of deification will fill the void.

I don't think that's true. Some type of deification filling a void is not necessarily due to an absence of God.

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A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[Vallerina 2]

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No argument here. This is an attempt at discussion. My point is quite simple actually. A person who elevates their status equal to God, also elevates their authority to make decisions regarding how reality is constructed. Examples being: hitler, who almost succeeded in constructing an extreme type of fascist reality, or a delusional religious leader who speaks for God and compels his flock to adhere to his view of Gods will on earth. Both are evil. I realize consensus is not a possibility in this discussion, but hopefully you will come up with something more than an amateurish attack. When God is absent from ones reality, some type of deification will fill the void.

What's that saying about internet arguments and Hitler?

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When God is absent from ones reality, some type of deification will fill the void.

Uh oh...I don't believe in a god...I think I need a spanking

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[billvon 2,427]

>Examples being: hitler, who almost succeeded in constructing an
>extreme type of fascist reality, or a delusional religious leader who speaks
>for God and compels his flock to adhere to his view of Gods will on earth.

Or the Pope, who claims he DOES speak for God, and claims to speak infallibly on the subject. Of course, in that case a lot of people think he really does.

>Both are evil.

Well, I don't think the Pope is evil. (Or any of the other religious leaders around the world who claim to have a "conduit to God.") Once again, it's what you do with your belief that matters.

[mnealtx 0]

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Uh oh...I don't believe in a god...I think I need a spanking

*ears perk up*



Howdy, Val!!!

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Vallerina 2]

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Uh oh...I don't believe in a god...I think I need a spanking

*ears perk up*



Howdy, Val!!!

Hi! I'm just here to lower the classiness bar a bit. Speakers Corner seems to have been tamed a bit

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[mnealtx 0]

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Hi! I'm just here to lower the classiness bar a bit. Speakers Corner seems to have been tamed a bit

It's a bit more civil of late... must be something in the water!

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[jakee 1,257]

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When God is absent from ones reality, some type of deification will fill the void.

That depends entirely on the person.

And again, you've used completely contradictory examples. A conception of god wasn't absent from Hitler's reality. A conception of god isn't absent from the reality of most religious leaders, delusional or otherwise.

All the examples you have posted so far simply confirm the idea that morality is not based on whether you believe god exists or whether you believe that the universe is aimless and pointless. This destroys your earlier assertion that believing in a pointless universe would lead to rampant amorality.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[philh 0]

It seems to me that some people on this forum think there are serious negative moral consequences for societies that abandon belief in god. If that is the case why is a society like the USA which is the most religious country in the western world so ridden with violence? whereas the countries with the lowest levels of religiosity such as Estonia, the Czech Republic and Sweden have very low levels of violent behaviour. The data simply doesnt fit the conjecture.

[Nightingale 0]

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It seems to me that some people on this forum think there are serious negative moral consequences for societies that abandon belief in god. If that is the case why is a society like the USA which is the most religious country in the western world so ridden with violence? whereas the countries with the lowest levels of religiosity such as Estonia, the Czech Republic and Sweden have very low levels of violent behaviour. The data simply doesnt fit the conjecture.

Maybe it has something to do with the ability to do wrong now and get forgiven for it later?

[maadmax 0]

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When God is absent from ones reality, some type of deification will fill the void.

That depends entirely on the person.

And again, you've used completely contradictory examples. A conception of god wasn't absent from Hitler's reality. A conception of god isn't absent from the reality of most religious leaders, delusional or otherwise.

All the examples you have posted so far simply confirm the idea that morality is not based on whether you believe god exists or whether you believe that the universe is aimless and pointless. This destroys your earlier assertion that believing in a pointless universe would lead to rampant amorality.***

My comments are in reference to the belief that absolute truths exists, both physical and spiritual . And that to truly fulfill our destiny, we must discover and live by these truths. We have two choices: either to seeks and accept these truths with humility, or in arrogance deny absolute truth exist and set off creating our own. I believe that it takes a personal relationship with God to learn and incorporate true spiritual wisdom into ones life. And of course, we have the scientific method for the physical truths.

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[jakee 1,257]

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My comments are in reference to the belief that absolute truths exists, both physical and spiritual . And that to truly fulfill our destiny, we must discover and live by these truths. We have two choices: either to seeks and accept these truths with humility, or in arrogance deny absolute truth exist and set off creating our own.

Restating your case doesn't make it any more valid, your examples are still self contradictory. The Nazis thought absolute truth and purpose existed. Most religious leaders think absolute truth exists.

How is that any better than thinking the universe is pointless?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Vallerina 2]

To make a valid post (for a change), as a person, this angers me a bit: http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists_ezorn/2008/04/rep-monique-dav.html

She happened to target Atheism, but had she attacked anyone's personal beliefs so irrationally, I'd still put the same frowny face here ---> Debating beliefs is okay, but she clearly demonstrated the intolerance that does exist amongst people who have the ability and desire to change laws based upon it. So, now I am an Angry Atheist! Grrrrr!

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[maadmax 0]

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My comments are in reference to the belief that absolute truths exists, both physical and spiritual . And that to truly fulfill our destiny, we must discover and live by these truths. We have two choices: either to seeks and accept these truths with humility, or in arrogance deny absolute truth exist and set off creating our own.

Restating your case doesn't make it any more valid, your examples are still self contradictory. The Nazis thought absolute truth and purpose existed. Most religious leaders think absolute truth exists.

How is that any better than thinking the universe is pointless?***

OK, I get the message. Whether you actually can or can not understand what I am saying will remain a mystery. The point is not that difficult to understand for some. Since you disagree with the premise, not understanding it certainly squelches any further discussion.

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[maadmax 0]

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To make a valid post (for a change), as a person, this angers me a bit: http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists_ezorn/2008/04/rep-monique-dav.html

She happened to target Atheism, but had she attacked anyone's personal beliefs so irrationally, I'd still put the same frowny face here ---> Debating beliefs is okay, but she clearly demonstrated the intolerance that does exist amongst people who have the ability and desire to change laws based upon it. So, now I am an Angry Atheist! Grrrrr! ***

If it makes you feel any better, any rational thinking person would find the comments of Ms Davis lacking in intelligent content. But it certainly is not worth wasting the energy and peace of mind required to become angry. There is no shortage of ignorant people in the world. Don't worry about them, if you have the energy to spend, try educating them.

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[billvon 2,427]

>OK, I get the message. Whether you actually can or can not
> understand what I am saying will remain a mystery.

Not much of a mystery. Your point is quite understandable; I just disagree with it.

You have your own absolute religious truths, and other people have theirs. Your truths are valid for YOU, not for a Buddhist, atheist or Wiccan. And that's fine. People who believe differently do not have "gaps" that need to be filled by "deification" any more than you have a "gap" caused by your understanding of God (and thus your rejection of other people's understanding of God.)

In my experience, the people who become the religious nuts (and sometimes do real damage) are the ones who are convinced that their own view of God is 100% absolutely, positively correct, and everyone else's view is either flawed (i.e. they are 'unenlightened', ignorant or just don't understand) or intentionally warped (i.e. are evil heretics.)

[br0k3n 0]

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It seems to me that some people on this forum think there are serious negative moral consequences for societies that abandon belief in god. If that is the case why is a society like the USA which is the most religious country in the western world so ridden with violence? whereas the countries with the lowest levels of religiosity such as Estonia, the Czech Republic and Sweden have very low levels of violent behaviour. The data simply doesnt fit the conjecture.

There are “Serious” negative moral consequences for societies and people that insist on continuing this unfounded, unproven belief in God, just ask Madeline Kara Neumann , oh you can’t she’s dead…

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[Nightingale 0]

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There are “Serious” negative moral consequences for societies and people that insist on continuing this unfounded, unproven belief in God, just ask Madeline Kara Neumann , oh you can’t she’s dead…

Your link is broken. Try this one. http://news.aol.com/health/story/ar/_a/parents-pick-prayer-over-doctor-girl/20080327161309990002

[jakee 1,257]

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OK, I get the message. Whether you actually can or can not understand what I am saying will remain a mystery. The point is not that difficult to understand for some. Since you disagree with the premise, not understanding it certainly squelches any further discussion.

I understand exactly what your point is.

Unfortunately, through your veil of dogma, you have failed to notice a) how completely ridiculous it is (not to mention insulting to the entire human race) and b) how completely the examples you have chosen invalidate the point you were trying to make.

To recap: You have stated that it is dangerous to believe that the universe has no point or purpose. To support this viewpoint you have used the example of Hitler, who absolutely thought that his life had a higher purpose, and of un-named 'religious leaders' most of whom by definition think that the universe has point and purpose. You've really got to try harder than that.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?