Amputee Ineligible for Olympic Events

[Erroll 49]

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An advantage?? He was born without legs guys. What kind of an advantage is that??

30%, apparently......

Clearly the CAS disagreed:

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Pistorius' lawyers countered with independent tests conducted by a team led by MIT professor Hugh M. Herr which claimed to show he doesn't gain any advantage over able-bodied runners.

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....If he put on wheels and a rocket pack, would you see the advantage?

Bev's reply did not deserve the sarcasm.

[pirana 0]

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An advantage?? He was born without legs guys. What kind of an advantage is that??

30%, apparently......

Clearly the CAS disagreed:

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Pistorius' lawyers countered with independent tests conducted by a team led by MIT professor Hugh M. Herr which claimed to show he doesn't gain any advantage over able-bodied runners.

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....If he put on wheels and a rocket pack, would you see the advantage?

Bev's reply did not deserve the sarcasm.

Of course the people with an agenda disagree, as well as the dualing experts and lawyers they hired.

The sarcasm was deserved. The discussion is around discerning a physical advantage from use of the device; and they threw in the emotional plea. Kind of like "But think of the children."

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[masterblaster72 0]

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An advantage?? He was born without legs guys. What kind of an advantage is that??

30%, apparently. From the initial article:

Brueggemann’s biomechanical and physiological analysis found that from a mechanical standpoint, the Cheetahs were more efficient than a human ankle and could in fact return energy in maximum speed sprinting. Specifically, he established that “the mechanical advantage of the blade in relation to the healthy ankle joint of an able-bodied athlete is higher than 30 percent.” This means, according to the statement, that Pistorius was able to run at the same speed as the able-bodied sprinters with about “25 percent less energy expenditure.”

If he put on wheels and a rocket pack, would you see the advantage?

This overlaps with my initial idea when I first heard of this runner: his heart has less work to do than the typical runner because he doesn't have any lower limbs to pump blood to. For that reason alone, I believe he shouldn't be racing with typical runners. It wouldn't be a bad idea to have a separate event for people like himself.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[Amazon 7]

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This overlaps with my initial idea when I first heard of this runner: his heart has less work to do than the typical runner because he doesn't have any lower limbs to pump blood to. For that reason alone, I believe he shouldn't be racing with typical runners. It wouldn't be a bad idea to have a separate event for people like himself.

I can remember a swimmer in our conference that had no legs.. he was scary fast because he had no legs and huge arms from using his wheel chair that he used for swimming . AT the end of races where other swimmers were completely spent and out of breath trying to get oxygen he was never winded.

[kelpdiver 2]

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I can remember a swimmer in our conference that had no legs.. he was scary fast because he had no legs and huge arms from using his wheel chair that he used for swimming . AT the end of races where other swimmers were completely spent and out of breath trying to get oxygen he was never winded.

did he focus on the longer events? In open water swimming, I rarely use my legs at all, since they will be put to work on the bike right after. Though in a pool, not having the legs to push off would be a disadvantage.

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My sarcasm was not to mock the athlete. But in a realm where a 2% advantage is huge, how do you fairly allow someone with a potential 30% advantage? Wheelchair marathoners are significantly faster than runners - 1:18 versus ~2:04. They compete is a separate division.

Not having legs has a key disadvantage - less control - and several advantages: less blood flow, as mentions, less weight, better traction as the angle can be fixed. It's no longer the same event as running - it's getting around a track as quickly as possible.

[Gawain 0]

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An advantage?? He was born without legs guys. What kind of an advantage is that??

30%, apparently. From the initial article:

Brueggemann’s biomechanical and physiological analysis found that from a mechanical standpoint, the Cheetahs were more efficient than a human ankle and could in fact return energy in maximum speed sprinting. Specifically, he established that “the mechanical advantage of the blade in relation to the healthy ankle joint of an able-bodied athlete is higher than 30 percent.” This means, according to the statement, that Pistorius was able to run at the same speed as the able-bodied sprinters with about “25 percent less energy expenditure.”

The problem with that statement is that it also means the Cheetah feet return less energy. Pistorius can't put the same energy into the legs.

As great as the Cheetah foot is, it can't return 100% of the energy put into it. The human leg can return 200% energy.

The feared "advantage" is the length of his legs, and the lighter weight. The problem I have with it is that it isn't an "apples-to-apples" contest. I believe his quest is self-serving.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[jcd11235 0]

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As great as the Cheetah foot is, it can't return 100% of the energy put into it. The human leg can return 200% energy.

Could you expound? That sounds like a major violation of physical laws.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Gawain 0]

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As great as the Cheetah foot is, it can't return 100% of the energy put into it. The human leg can return 200% energy.

Could you expound? That sounds like a major violation of physical laws.

I'm not a physicist, but my prosthetist explained it that when running, a human leg not only returns and adds energy that comes from the movement/swing phase, but adds it's own energy during the return/extension.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Erroll 49]

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An advantage?? He was born without legs guys. What kind of an advantage is that??

30%, apparently......

Clearly the CAS disagreed:

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Of course the people with an agenda disagree, "

Really. The Commission for Arbitration in Sport has an agenda.

You are going to have to do better than that.

[Erroll 49]

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An advantage?? He was born without legs guys. What kind of an advantage is that??

30%, apparently......

Clearly the CAS disagreed:

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Of course the people with an agenda disagree, "

Really. The Commission for Arbitration in Sport has an agenda.

You are going to have to do better than that.

'Blade runner' Pistorius handed dream double Olympic ticket

[Southern_Man 0]

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'Blade runner' Pistorius handed dream double Olympic ticket

Yup, he's going. If anybody is still interested in background science there is an excellent series of articles about Pistorius at www.sportsscientists.com

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[pirana 0]

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Really. The Commission for Arbitration in Sport has an agenda.

You are going to have to do better than that.

Yes; they clearly are ignoring the well documented 30% advantage of the prosthetic in the name of looking PC.

Also, the fact he couldn't make the times necessary, so they changed or suspended the requirements to get him in - ridiculous.

They've opened Pandora's Box now; as certainly his team of physicians & engineers will pursue improvements that will make such athletes medal contenders. How will they draw the line? Will they allow devices just good enough to make them medal contenders, and stop there? Once the devices get good enough to guarantee a win, then will all athletes be allowed to use various pieces of equipment to keep up?

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[Southern_Man 0]

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Really. The Commission for Arbitration in Sport has an agenda.

You are going to have to do better than that.

Yes; they clearly are ignoring the well documented 30% advantage of the prosthetic in the name of looking PC.

Also, the fact he couldn't make the times necessary, so they changed or suspended the requirements to get him in - ridiculous.

Just to be clear, Pistorus met the qualifying times set by the IOC and neither the IOC nor the CAS changed anything to allow him to run. Athletes south Africa is one fo the countries that has set higher standards for their athletes to compete than just meeting the IOC standard (Canada and New Zealand are other countries that do this) and Athletics South Africa apparently waived their higher qualification for him.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[Andy9o8 0]

OK, but what about the fact, or even the possibility, that his prostheses give him a mechanical advantage?

[Southern_Man 0]

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OK, but what about the fact, or even the possibility, that his prostheses give him a mechanical advantage?

Well, I wasn't going into that part. There are interesting articles about it (and what evidence was presented to CAS) at the link I provided above.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[Erroll 49]

[reply Once the devices get good enough to guarantee a win, then will all athletes be allowed to use various pieces of equipment to keep up?

[davjohns 1]

What if I show up with shoes that make my stride significantly longer and have a device in them that rebounds energy and helps me go faster?

Heck, how about in-line skates?

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[Erroll 49]

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What if I show up with shoes that make my stride significantly longer and have a device in them that rebounds energy and helps me go faster?

Heck, how about in-line skates?

As long as you have your legs amputated first.

[davjohns 1]

I think your argument is that since he has no legs, anything goes for him?

I'm sympathetic to his condition, but I'm not sure that bolsters the goals of the competition. Can a quadraplegic use a rocket sled?

I think it obvious that the designers and builders of his prosthetics set out to provide him a mechanical advantage. If they succeded, he should only compete with those who share that mechanical advantage.

It's apparently bloody hard to tell if they succeded.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[Southern_Man 0]

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What if I show up with shoes that make my stride significantly longer and have a device in them that rebounds energy and helps me go faster?

Heck, how about in-line skates?

Already covered in the rules.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[davjohns 1]

I figured as much. I presume they either did not anticipate prosthetics or are ambiguous on the subject.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[Southern_Man 0]

Yes, there is no way to anticipate every possible situation. Many things have to be decided on an individual basis.

The CAS concluded (wrongly and based on incomplete evidence in my opinion, but my opinion is not relevant) that the blades did not give him an advantage.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[davjohns 1]

They're going to have to address this. Obviously, the designers were trying to give him an advantage. Otherwise, they would have used non-rebounding components and simulated a natural calf and ankle geometry. I think I saw video of a guy using these things to spring all over the place and do flips. Not certain. Even if this one does not, what does the future hold? Must be addressed.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[pirana 0]

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Really. The Commission for Arbitration in Sport has an agenda.

You are going to have to do better than that.

Yes; they clearly are ignoring the well documented 30% advantage of the prosthetic in the name of looking PC.

Also, the fact he couldn't make the times necessary, so they changed or suspended the requirements to get him in - ridiculous.

Just to be clear, Pistorus met the qualifying times set by the IOC and neither the IOC nor the CAS changed anything to allow him to run. Athletes south Africa is one fo the countries that has set higher standards for their athletes to compete than just meeting the IOC standard (Canada and New Zealand are other countries that do this) and Athletics South Africa apparently waived their higher qualification for him.

Which is what I said in different words. Basically, they bent their own criteria to let him in. That makes it no question that he is receiving special treatment. The only question is why, and my opinion is that they want to look politically progressive and correct.

It's going to bite them in the ass one way or another because drawing the line on when and what kind of mechanical devices can be used is going to get very messy.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[Southern_Man 0]

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Really. The Commission for Arbitration in Sport has an agenda.

You are going to have to do better than that.

Yes; they clearly are ignoring the well documented 30% advantage of the prosthetic in the name of looking PC.

Also, the fact he couldn't make the times necessary, so they changed or suspended the requirements to get him in - ridiculous.

Just to be clear, Pistorus met the qualifying times set by the IOC and neither the IOC nor the CAS changed anything to allow him to run. Athletes south Africa is one fo the countries that has set higher standards for their athletes to compete than just meeting the IOC standard (Canada and New Zealand are other countries that do this) and Athletics South Africa apparently waived their higher qualification for him.

Which is what I said in different words. Basically, they bent their own criteria to let him in. That makes it no question that he is receiving special treatment. The only question is why, and my opinion is that they want to look politically progressive and correct.

It's going to bite them in the ass one way or another because drawing the line on when and what kind of mechanical devices can be used is going to get very messy.

OK, it was a little unclear to me who had the PC agenda and who was bending what rules.

Athletics South Africa changed the standards for qualifying for their Olympic team. ASA is a hopelessly corrupt and mismanaged body. I don't know what their PC agenda is, it appears to me they just want to win as many medals as possible.

CAS made what is, IMHO, a bad ruling on the advantage question. I do not know what their motivation was for that ruling. They did not have all of the evidence they could have, so it is possible the ruling was sound based on the evidence presented.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"