Neighbor Guns Down Robbers with Shotgun while on with 911

[jenfly00 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

it appears you live in a country where you can kill people for simply doing wrong..... doesn't make it right though

That's the way it was done in the old west. Maybe Texas is still lagging behind the rest of the US in proper justice...

But yeah, I think the neighbor pumping buckshot into lethal locations on the two poor bastards was over doing it. Why not just shoot them in the lower legs? They're not going anywhere after that.

I know of no situation where training is done to use a gun to simply "immobilize" a target. Center mass every time.

Guns are not intended to "shoot a man in the leg". There is no such thing as a "warning shot".

I'm with Mr. Horn in this case.

Then you align yourself with a murderer. Listen to the 911 call, the guy was sporting wood when he went out to kill them.

-----------------------
"O brave new world that has such people in it".

[rushmc 18]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

it appears you live in a country where you can kill people for simply doing wrong..... doesn't make it right though

That's the way it was done in the old west. Maybe Texas is still lagging behind the rest of the US in proper justice...

But yeah, I think the neighbor pumping buckshot into lethal locations on the two poor bastards was over doing it. Why not just shoot them in the lower legs? They're not going anywhere after that.

I know of no situation where training is done to use a gun to simply "immobilize" a target. Center mass every time.

Guns are not intended to "shoot a man in the leg". There is no such thing as a "warning shot".

I'm with Mr. Horn in this case.

Then you align yourself with a murderer. Listen to the 911 call, the guy was sporting wood when he went out to kill them.

Here we have it. The final say on the matter

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Skyrad 0]

After reading the transcript ad hearing the call I'd say this bloke has watched to many Rambo films. 'BOOM YER DEAD' WTF??? 'Thats my shotgun clicking I'm going' Fricking Loon.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[GeorgiaDon 340]

Just out of curiosity, I wonder how those of you who find Mr. Horn's behavior so laudable would feel about Farmer McNasty taking his shotgun to the next skydiver who lands out on his property. After all, 1) they are trespassing, 2) what could be more scary than someone in a clown suit who suddenly appears out of nowhere?, and 3) that backpack they're wearing obviously could conceal who-knows-what weapons, and/or is obviously meant to carry away all they loot they're about to steal. Who could blame him for being scared? He was just defending his property.

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

Just out of curiosity, I wonder how those of you who find Mr. Horn's behavior so laudable would feel about Farmer McNasty taking his shotgun to the next skydiver who lands out on his property. After all, 1) they are trespassing, 2) what could be more scary than someone in a clown suit who suddenly appears out of nowhere?, and 3) that backpack they're wearing obviously could conceal who-knows-what weapons, and/or is obviously meant to carry away all they loot they're about to steal. Who could blame him for being scared? He was just defending his property.

That's why I have tandem students.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Skyrad 0]

LOL

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Quote

Quote

But yeah, I think the neighbor pumping buckshot into lethal locations on the two poor bastards was over doing it. Why not just shoot them in the lower legs? They're not going anywhere after that.

I know of no situation where training is done to use a gun to simply "immobilize" a target. Center mass every time.

Guns are not intended to "shoot a man in the leg". There is no such thing as a "warning shot".

I'm with Mr. Horn in this case.

Then you align yourself with a murderer. Listen to the 911 call, the guy was sporting wood when he went out to kill them.

There's two issues here.

1) Was he right to shoot them

2) Should he have shot them in the legs?

The answer to #2 is being addressed here, and it is clearly correct to not shoot to immobolize. It's not achievable and not desirable. Either you shoot to kill or you don't shoot.

[shropshire 0]

My view..

(1) No and so (2) does not apply.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[ryoder 1,401]

Quote

Either you shoot to kill or you don't shoot.

No, you don't "shoot to kill". You shoot to stop an attack. If the attacker left you no alternative to using deadly force, and he dies, so be it.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[GeorgiaDon 340]

I bet that works better than those fake leather ammo vests.

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[Unstable 8]

Quote

Then you align yourself with a murderer. Listen to the 911 call, the guy was sporting wood when he went out to kill them.

As much as I would like to see all the scum buckets in this country come to swift and if necessary, lethal justice, I just agree with you that Mr. Horn's actions were uncalled for. The men he shot posed NO threat to him, and if you listen to the full dialog, he had NO intentions of stopping them at all. He said it himself, if he goes out there, then he is in danger and will not give them any chances. He shot to kill and shot right away.

I'm all for Horn going out there with a shotgun and keeping them from getting away until the police come, but shooting to kill like that IMHO was unnecessary. What would happen if the police did just what he did? Riots would ensue.

I don't think I would go as far as calling him a Murderer, but Certainly he needs to pay a price for his swift actions.

=========Shaun ==========

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

I just agree with you that Mr. Horn's actions were uncalled for. The men he shot posed NO threat to him... shooting to kill like that IMHO was unnecessary.

Oh, so you must know exactly what happened when he confronted the two burglars. Please enlighten me, because I haven't seen those details released anywhere yet. And that's exactly what the legality of this shooting hinges upon. Everything else is irrelevant. So please tell.

[Unstable 8]

Quote

In Reply To
I just agree with you that Mr. Horn's actions were uncalled for. The men he shot posed NO threat to him... shooting to kill like that IMHO was unnecessary.

Oh, so you must know exactly what happened when he confronted the two burglars. Please enlighten me, because I haven't seen those details released anywhere yet. And that's exactly what the legality of this shooting hinges upon. Everything else is irrelevant. So please tell.

Nobody knows what happened in the street that day, but I do know this from the dispatch tape...

Quote

He gets more agitated. The dispatcher asks if he can see the suspects but they had retreated into the target's house, out of view: "I can go out the front [to look], but if I go out the front I'm bringing my shotgun with me, I swear to God. I am not gonna let 'em get away with this, I can't take a chance on getting killed over this, OK? I'm gonna shoot, I'm gonna shoot."

It is pretty clear to me from this statement that when Mr. Horn left his house, he had no other intents other than to shoot to kill.

I'm all for the rights of citizens to arm themselves and protect their property, with deadly force if necessary. I am a member of the NRA, and I have never seen a post of yours I have not agreed with.
My point, is that Mr.Horn was playing vigilante, and if he did leave his house with no intents other then to shoot to kill, then he was wrong. Period. If he is going to take the law into his own hands, he needs to have the same standards.

If a police officer breaks and enters a drug house with the intention of killing all those inside, and does so, then it warrants an investigation. if those inside are a threat, then he has the right, and the duty to defend himself. If they didn't pose an immediate threat, and he still shoots to kill, this is wrong.

=========Shaun ==========

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Nobody knows what happened in the street that day, but I do know this from the dispatch tape...

Quote

He gets more agitated. The dispatcher asks if he can see the suspects but they had retreated into the target's house, out of view: "I can go out the front [to look], but if I go out the front I'm bringing my shotgun with me, I swear to God. I am not gonna let 'em get away with this, I can't take a chance on getting killed over this, OK? I'm gonna shoot, I'm gonna shoot."

It is pretty clear to me from this statement that when Mr. Horn left his house, he had no other intents other than to shoot to kill.

Or he said that to encourage faster police time than sometime in the morning after the bad guys were gone.

[kallend 1,651]

Quote

Quote

I just agree with you that Mr. Horn's actions were uncalled for. The men he shot posed NO threat to him... shooting to kill like that IMHO was unnecessary.

Oh, so you must know exactly what happened when he confronted the two burglars.

He didn't have to confront the burglars. He chose to intervene as a vigilante, and to be judge, jury and executioner.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Quote

Quote

I just agree with you that Mr. Horn's actions were uncalled for. The men he shot posed NO threat to him... shooting to kill like that IMHO was unnecessary.

Oh, so you must know exactly what happened when he confronted the two burglars.

He didn't have to confront the burglars. He chose to intervene as a vigilante, and to be judge, jury and executioner.

So you were there!

Sorry, John, you only know as fact that first statement, that he choose to intervene. The rest is presumption.

[freethefly 6]

Quote

Quote

Nobody knows what happened in the street that day, but I do know this from the dispatch tape...

Quote

He gets more agitated. The dispatcher asks if he can see the suspects but they had retreated into the target's house, out of view: "I can go out the front [to look], but if I go out the front I'm bringing my shotgun with me, I swear to God. I am not gonna let 'em get away with this, I can't take a chance on getting killed over this, OK? I'm gonna shoot, I'm gonna shoot."

It is pretty clear to me from this statement that when Mr. Horn left his house, he had no other intents other than to shoot to kill.

Or he said that to encourage faster police time than sometime in the morning after the bad guys were gone.

Listen to the tape. The police were there seconds after he killed them. This guy stepped out the door after stating that he was going to kill them. He did exactly what he said he was going to do. It cannot be any clearer to what his intent was.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Quote

Or he said that to encourage faster police time than sometime in the morning after the bad guys were gone.

Listen to the tape. The police were there seconds after he killed them. This guy stepped out the door after stating that he was going to kill them. He did exactly what he said he was going to do. It cannot be any clearer to what his intent was.

So it worked! They rushed over.

You can't eliminate the possibility that the bad guys reacted to the sight of a guy with a shotgun and drove the situation to the next level. You're still presuming that he was shooting no matter what. I think you need more than the newspaper story and 911 transcript to arrive to that conclusion.

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

Nobody knows what happened in the street that day, but I do know this from the dispatch tape... I am not gonna let 'em get away with this, I can't take a chance on getting killed over this, OK? I'm gonna shoot, I'm gonna shoot." It is pretty clear to me from this statement that when Mr. Horn left his house, he had no other intents other than to shoot to kill.

His intent when he left the house is irrelevant. What matters is whether or not the shooting was justified. It could be that the burglars advanced towards him with crowbars, and if so, then the shooting was justified self defense. If, on the other hand, the burglars turned to run away and were shot in the back, then it's murder. We don't know yet exactly what those circumstances were. But just because he said he was going to kill them, doesn't mean that any subsequent shooting is automatically murder. Lot's of people say things like that in anger, without any real intent.

If he had said; "I'm not going to kill them, I'll just use the shotgun to make them comply", would you conclude that this automatically makes the shooting justifiable, because he said he didn't want to do it? Probably not, because the statements uttered are irrelevant. It's the physical facts that count, and we don't have those yet.

If his life was in danger, the shooting was justifiable, regardless of who said what, and when.

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

He didn't have to confront the burglars. He chose to intervene as a vigilante, and to be judge, jury and executioner.

It's not against the law to confront burglars. We can argue about how smart that is, but nevertheless, that's not illegal. So that fact is irrelevant. Just because you choose to confront criminals, doesn't mean that you are automatically guilty of anything bad that happens thereafter.

Likewise, just because he chose to confront the burglars to stop their escape, doesn't automatically mean that this shooting was unjustified. That determination hinges upon what happened when the burglars were confronted, and we don't yet know that.

You are acting as judge and jury yourself, by convicting him of murder before knowing all the facts. Tsk tsk.

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

Listen to the tape. The police were there seconds after he killed them. This guy stepped out the door after stating that he was going to kill them. He did exactly what he said he was going to do. It cannot be any clearer to what his intent was.

Just because the outcome matched up with his stated intent, does not mean that the outcome was unjustified.

Intent alone does not make you guilty of a crime. The factual circumstances determine that. And we don't know those yet.

If he hadn't made that statement over the phone, the discussion would be focusing on what happened with the actual encounter. And even despite those statements, that is still what the focus should be. For that alone is what decides whether or not this is self defense or murder.

I think the lynch mob should hold off for a little while until the investigation is complete.

News stories:
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nb/pasadena/news/5309288.html
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/tx/5330235.html

[kallend 1,651]

Quote

Quote

I think the lynch mob should hold off for a little while until the investigation is complete.

Irony score there, methinks.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

• Quote

[jenfly00 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

I think the lynch mob should hold off for a little while until the investigation is complete.

Irony score there, methinks.

Off the scale irony.

-----------------------
"O brave new world that has such people in it".

• Quote