We don't serve illegals in Muskogee

[akarunway 1]

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The really sick part of handing DLs to the illegals is this-- many states have "motor voter" laws, so, give the illegal a DL, and presto, a new voter. Just where in the Constitution does it guarantee a non-citizen the right to vote in a US election?

Voter registration is not automatic when you get a driver's license - you are also required to affirm that you are eligible to vote. Giving a false answer is a felony and is grounds for deportation, even for LEGAL immigrants.

Is there any evidence that illegal aliens are actually registering as voters due to this law in numbers sufficient to affect the outcome of any election?

Just wondering. How many ILLEGALS you have working for you since you defend them so much?

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[skinnyshrek 0]

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The really sick part of handing DLs to the illegals is this-- many states have "motor voter" laws, so, give the illegal a DL, and presto, a new voter. Just where in the Constitution does it guarantee a non-citizen the right to vote in a US election?

Voter registration is not automatic when you get a driver's license - you are also required to affirm that you are eligible to vote. Giving a false answer is a felony and is grounds for deportation, even for LEGAL immigrants.

Is there any evidence that illegal aliens are actually registering as voters due to this law in numbers sufficient to affect the outcome of any election?

Just wondering. How many ILLEGALS you have working for you since you defend them so much?

Sometimes you have to employ illegals. Too many americans sit on their fat arse and collect welfare instead of working

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[jm951 0]

Since I'm pretty much a small operation as contractors go, I know for a fact that I don't have any illegals working for me. The subs I use don't have any either. I won't knowingly use any either directly or indirectly as part of my business policy. The people whom I do work for know I make it a point to not hire the illegals and they have absolutely no problem with it and don't mind supporting a little guy who's playing entirely by the rules.

Back to the DL thing, it's basically the honor system when the illegal goes to get a DL with respect to registering to vote. The person is here illegally already, what's one more lie to get the "green" light for voting? Even in a hotbed of liberalism like NY, the populace is overwhelmingly against the DL idea to the tune of 70+%. That makes it neither a liberal nor conservative or democrat or repub issue.

[Frenchy68 0]

I need clarification on the DL used to register to vote thingie: I always thought one had to be citizen of the US in order to be eligible to vote in the US. Does it mean that the DL is now proof of citizenship? Does it also mean that legal Aliens are now allowed to vote?
ALso, I haven't lived in the US for a couple of years now, but last I remember, a DL was not sufficient on an I9 (had to be US passport OR DL + SS).

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[jm951 0]

here's a couple of web addresses to get edumacated on this-

http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/voting/nvra/activ_nvra.htm

http://www.cato.org/testimony/ct-js031401.html

http://www.vdare.com/awall/voter_registration.htm

http://www.cato.org/testimony/ct-js031401.html

http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/publications/voter_fraud.asp

The whole thing is a very bad idea from start to finish with extremely loose standards of proof to register. The honor system just won't cut it.

[BIGUN 1,097]

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but last I remember, a DL was not sufficient on an I9 (had to be US passport OR DL + SS).

Correct. But the new OK DL is extremely difficult to counterfeit (holograms, watermarks, magnetic strip... police cars with a point of sale type swipe system to verify the frontal info + SSN, etc.), whereas the SSN card can be done with a computer, Photoshop and a good color printer.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[Frenchy68 0]

Good thing.
I myself think all US citizen should have an ID card or a passport as proof of citizenship or residency. A DL should only be used as proof one passed a driving test, and a SS card should only be used when applying for SS benefits, a library card to get books, etc...

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[jpjc2000 0]

Ok. Must have taken the Prime Ministers message from the the other side of the world to heart!!
______________________________________________________


Prime Minister John Howard - Australia

Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia, as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks.
A day after a group of mainstream Muslim leaders pledged loyalty to Australia and her Queen at a special meeting with Prime Minister John Howard, he and his Ministers made it clear that extremists would face a crackdown. Treasurer Peter Costello, seen as heir apparent to Howard, hinted that some radical clerics could be asked to leave the country if they did not accept that Australia was a secular state, and its laws were made by parliament. 'If those are not your values, if you want a country which has Sharia law or a theocratic state, then Australia is not for you', he said on National Television
'I'd be saying to clerics who are teaching that there are two laws governing people in Australia : one the Australian law and another Islamic law that is false. If you can't agree with parliamentary law, independent courts, democracy, and would prefer Sharia law and have the opportunity to go to another country, which practices it, perhaps, then, that's a better option', Costello said.
Asked whether he meant radical clerics would be forced to leave, he said those with dual citizenship could possibly be asked to move to the other country. Education Minister Brendan Nelson later told reporters that Muslims who did not want to accept local values should 'clear off. Basically people who don't want to be Australians, and who don't want, to live by Australian values and understand them, well then, they can basically clear off', he said.
Separately, Howard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying he supported spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques. Quote: 'IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave It. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali , we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians.'
'However, the dust from the attacks had barely settled when the 'politically correct' crowd began complaining about the possibility that our patriotism was offending others. I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to Australia ' 'However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently some born here, need to understand.' 'This idea of Australia being a multi-cultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity. And as Australians, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle.'
'This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom'
'We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society . Learn the language!'
'Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.'
'We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us.'
'If the Southern Cross offends you, or you don't like 'A Fair Go', then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet. We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from. By all means, keep your culture, but do not force it on others.
'This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom,
'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'.'
'If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted.'
Maybe if we circulate this amongst ourselves, American citizens will find the backbone to start speaking and voicing the same truths.

[kallend 1,672]

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The really sick part of handing DLs to the illegals is this-- many states have "motor voter" laws, so, give the illegal a DL, and presto, a new voter. Just where in the Constitution does it guarantee a non-citizen the right to vote in a US election?

Voter registration is not automatic when you get a driver's license - you are also required to affirm that you are eligible to vote. Giving a false answer is a felony and is grounds for deportation, even for LEGAL immigrants.

Is there any evidence that illegal aliens are actually registering as voters due to this law in numbers sufficient to affect the outcome of any election?

Just wondering. How many ILLEGALS you have working for you since you defend them so much?

I don't employ anyone.
I don't defend them at all. Just trying to separate the FACTS from opinion and bigotry.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[millertime24 8]

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The really sick part of handing DLs to the illegals is this-- many states have "motor voter" laws, so, give the illegal a DL, and presto, a new voter. Just where in the Constitution does it guarantee a non-citizen the right to vote in a US election?

Voter registration is not automatic when you get a driver's license - you are also required to affirm that you are eligible to vote. Giving a false answer is a felony and is grounds for deportation, even for LEGAL immigrants.

Is there any evidence that illegal aliens are actually registering as voters due to this law in numbers sufficient to affect the outcome of any election?

Numbers shouldnt make any difference. If one is doing it (illegaly or not) and getting away with it then where does it stop. And yes the state that jm951 lives in they really really do. Weather it actually affects the outcome or not doesnt make it right.

Muff #5048

[kallend 1,672]

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The really sick part of handing DLs to the illegals is this-- many states have "motor voter" laws, so, give the illegal a DL, and presto, a new voter. Just where in the Constitution does it guarantee a non-citizen the right to vote in a US election?

Voter registration is not automatic when you get a driver's license - you are also required to affirm that you are eligible to vote. Giving a false answer is a felony and is grounds for deportation, even for LEGAL immigrants.

Is there any evidence that illegal aliens are actually registering as voters due to this law in numbers sufficient to affect the outcome of any election?

Numbers shouldnt make any difference. If one is doing it (illegaly or not) and getting away with it then where does it stop. And yes the state that jm951 lives in they really really do. Weather it actually affects the outcome or not doesnt make it right.

I didn't say it was right. I was challenging the previous assertion: "give the illegal a DL, and presto, a new voter."

Having a DL does NOT automatically register anyone as a voter. They also have to affirm that they are eligible, and making a false statement is a felony.

If you were illegal, would you choose to raise your profile by committing a felony?

So the question of how many actually do this is quite relevant. I suspect it's just a scare tactic from the anti-immigration brigade.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[millertime24 8]

It doesnt matter if they commit a felony. Its not like they can be prosocuted here. All that happens is they get deported which leaves them free to try again. And I disagree with you about the "raising their profile" statement. Its not exactly like they have (valid) social security numbers is it. They can come right back across and be someone totally different.

Muff #5048

[kallend 1,672]

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It doesnt matter if they commit a felony. Its not like they can be prosocuted here. All that happens is they get deported which leaves them free to try again. And I disagree with you about the "raising their profile" statement. Its not exactly like they have (valid) social security numbers is it. They can come right back across and be someone totally different.

So tell us, what % of illegals getting drivers' licenses register to vote? Is it a real PROBLEM, or just a scare tactic?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[masterrig 1]

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It doesnt matter if they commit a felony. Its not like they can be prosocuted here. All that happens is they get deported which leaves them free to try again. And I disagree with you about the "raising their profile" statement. Its not exactly like they have (valid) social security numbers is it. They can come right back across and be someone totally different.

On the contrary! Illegals can be and are prosecuted for crimes in this country. Recently, a big sweep of the MC-13 gang, made-up mostly of illegal Mexican gang members in this country were arrested for crimes of rape, murder, drug dealing, gang activities and etc.. They will be prosecuted. Illegals who are not wanted for violations are returned to their home land.
edit to add: Check prison records and see, just how many inmates in U.S. prisons are illegals.

Chuck

[BIGUN 1,097]

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radical clerics could be asked to leave the country if they did not accept that Australia was a secular state, and its laws were made by parliament. 'If those are not your values, if you want a country which has Sharia law or a theocratic state, then Australia is not for you', he said on National Television

Even us country folk here in Oklahoma don't agree with this and is ninety degrees from the original thread. Your post is about anti-muslim, the bill is about being here in the U.S illegally and usurping the legal channels of citizenship, yet having the benefits of citizenry, or even being a criminal from another country.

We have an active Muslim community, more flavors of Christian faith than Baskin-Robbins (from the conservative to the extreme), as well as Buddhists, Judaism, Seventh Day Adventists, etc. Each has two laws as the Prime Minister points out towards the end of his speech (his choice being Christian as he lives under certain laws of Christianity himself).

One can live under two masters; the laws of the State and the laws of their faith. However, the master of State law is what allows the ability to live among the many in peace under the laws of their faith. We are known as the "Bible Belt," yet the only form of intolerance one may see against another religion is the occasional upturned nose of snobbery.

That is because Oklahomans live by two masters and the law of State and the U.S. Constitution are at equal in their hearts as the laws of their faith. Oklahomans understand that if it weren't for the one, the other would not exist.

This State is not about anti-anything (including being radical) as long as its done according to the rule of law. What the people of this State told the Republican House and the Democratic Governor is - We welcome anyone as long as they are here legally.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[masterrig 1]

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Good thing.
I myself think all US citizen should have an ID card or a passport as proof of citizenship or residency. A DL should only be used as proof one passed a driving test, and a SS card should only be used when applying for SS benefits, a library card to get books, etc...

I couldn't agree with you more! The situation, being what it is in this country, I think it's time for something like you suggest. I think, too many folks look at it like some knd of 'Big Brother' thing or whatever. Yes, I think it's a great idea.


Chuck

[Andy9o8 0]

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It doesnt matter if they commit a felony. Its not like they can be prosocuted here. All that happens is they get deported which leaves them free to try again.

What on earth makes you think foreign nationals, whether here legally or illegally, either cannot or will not be prosecuted for crimes they commit here? I assure you, they can and will; and unless there's some specific guarantee that they'll serve out their sentence in their home country (which is rare), they will serve out their sentence here before being deported.

Occasionally, although not very often, if an alien is charged with a relatively minor crime, and is a first-offender, and thus would be likely to get probation anyway, the DA's office may opt to save the taxpayers the expense of prosecution and probation supervision if it is assured the person will be deported promptly. But someone charged with a felony? Very unlikely.

[millertime24 8]

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It doesnt matter if they commit a felony. Its not like they can be prosocuted here. All that happens is they get deported which leaves them free to try again. And I disagree with you about the "raising their profile" statement. Its not exactly like they have (valid) social security numbers is it. They can come right back across and be someone totally different.

On the contrary! Illegals can be and are prosecuted for crimes in this country. Recently, a big sweep of the MC-13 gang, made-up mostly of illegal Mexican gang members in this country were arrested for crimes of rape, murder, drug dealing, gang activities and etc.. They will be prosecuted. Illegals who are not wanted for violations are returned to their home land.
edit to add: Check prison records and see, just how many inmates in U.S. prisons are illegals.

Chuck

I stand corrected. Here's a pretty interesting link on the subject.

http://www.cis.org/articles/2001/crime/law.html

Muff #5048

[Andy9o8 0]

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Good thing.
I myself think all US citizen should have an ID card or a passport as proof of citizenship or residency. A DL should only be used as proof one passed a driving test, and a SS card should only be used when applying for SS benefits, a library card to get books, etc...

I couldn't agree with you more! The situation, being what it is in this country, I think it's time for something like you suggest. I think, too many folks look at it like some knd of 'Big Brother' thing or whatever. Yes, I think it's a great idea.

I'm on the other side of this issue. The proverbial slippery slope could result in effectively criminalizing mere failure to carry one's ID on one's person, giving police the automatic right to arrest anyone who doesn't have it on them. Not in the United States of America, I say.

[masterrig 1]

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Good thing.
I myself think all US citizen should have an ID card or a passport as proof of citizenship or residency. A DL should only be used as proof one passed a driving test, and a SS card should only be used when applying for SS benefits, a library card to get books, etc...

I couldn't agree with you more! The situation, being what it is in this country, I think it's time for something like you suggest. I think, too many folks look at it like some knd of 'Big Brother' thing or whatever. Yes, I think it's a great idea.

I'm on the other side of this issue. The proverbial slippery slope could result in effectively criminalizing mere failure to carry one's ID on one's person, giving police the automatic right to arrest anyone who doesn't have it on them. Not in the United States of America, I say.

The way I see it is, it would be just like your driver's license. Stick the thing in your wallet and no problem. Just don't leave home without it! What happens if you are caught driving without your license? We can conjure-up all kinds of ugly things before something happens. I don't think, it would be all that bad.


Chuck

[masterrig 1]

I stand corrected. Here's a pretty interesting link on the subject.

http://www.cis.org/articles/2001/crime/law.html

[masterrig 1]

I think, what Oklahoma is trying to do is great! Your State is obviously fed-up with the problem of illegals and trying to do something about it. I know of other cities around this country who have tried similar and have gotten a lot of flack from Latino organizations, mostly. Maybe, this will start a trickle-down effect and get other States to take a stand. Your State's new might need just a little tweaking in the wording but, it get's the point across! Let's hope, the law stands.


Chuck

[mnealtx 0]

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Voter registration is not automatic when you get a driver's license - you are also required to affirm that you are eligible to vote. Giving a false answer is a felony and is grounds for deportation, even for LEGAL immigrants.

And how many Democrats were screaming about voter eligibility being checked, last election, and that it was illegal? Seems like a catch-22 to me...as long as you're AGAINST the NVRA, that is.

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Is there any evidence that illegal aliens are actually registering as voters due to this law in numbers sufficient to affect the outcome of any election?

Impossible to tell, as the NVRA seems to make the registration information private - the statute is a bit unclear. Also , if they're illegally getting a driver's license (by stating they're a legal resident), what's another little white lie and a signature on a voter card?

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I didn't say it was right. I was challenging the previous assertion: "give the illegal a DL, and presto, a new voter."

Pretty close, under NVRA - I've not seen anything in it requiring any stringent proof. As an aside - I've registered to vote online when renewing my license online as well as in person - the license was accepted as proof of citizenship for voting.

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So the question of how many actually do this is quite relevant. I suspect it's just a scare tactic from the anti-immigration brigade.

A quote from a news release from an pro-immigration control website - I've not tried to verify the numbers, but I'm sure the information is out there -

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How many ineligible voters actually took advantage of the Motor Voter law by registering to vote? In Florida, according to the Florida Secretary of State's numbers, between 1994 and 1998 (the most recent data available), the number of registered Hispanic voters skyrocketed by an astonishing 557%, from 99,000 to 655,000 while the number of White and Black registered voters increased by a reasonable 15 %.

The number of registered Hispanic voters has grown even more dramatically in south Florida. For example, in Dade County, from 1994 to 1998 the number of Hispanic voters grew by 1996%, a nearly 20-fold increase! And in now-famous Palm Beach County, the four year increase was completely off the charts, a 7,220% jump!

While Florida's numerous attractions and climate may have attracted new residents from other states, most would concede that this unbelievable spike in new voters must come mainly from one source -- new immigrants.

If those numbers are anywhere NEAR accurate...it seems to be a large (and growing) problem.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mnealtx 0]

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I'm on the other side of this issue. The proverbial slippery slope could result in effectively criminalizing mere failure to carry one's ID on one's person, giving police the automatic right to arrest anyone who doesn't have it on them. Not in the United States of America, I say.

It's definitely a slippery slope - and I'm not sure there's any solution that will be fair to all.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mnealtx 0]

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I'm on the other side of this issue. The proverbial slippery slope could result in effectively criminalizing mere failure to carry one's ID on one's person, giving police the automatic right to arrest anyone who doesn't have it on them. Not in the United States of America, I say.

The way I see it is, it would be just like your driver's license. Stick the thing in your wallet and no problem. Just don't leave home without it! What happens if you are caught driving without your license? We can conjure-up all kinds of ugly things before something happens. I don't think, it would be all that bad.


Chuck

I understand what you're saying, Chuck...and on an emotional level, I agree with it.

However...there's no requirement (at least that I'm aware of) to have any sort of ID constantly available. I *do* know that people have been arrested under that type of circumstance, but IIRC, that wasn't the sole reason.

I'm against a de facto "national ID card" just because of the "Your papers, please!" possibility of it - look at how the Social Security card has been twisted from it's original use as registration in the SS system to a form of ID.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706