Clinton Health Care....Part II

[steveorino 7]

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WE HAVE SOCIALIZED HEALTH CARE NOW. That's the point. The question is - how do we best implement it?

I agree -- somehow I don't think healthcare run by the government will be the best way. They don't seem to be cost effective in many other avenues.

I admit, I'm not sure what the answer is, but I don't want to turn over something as important as HC to the government. I might as well let my 5 year old granddaughter pay my bills. That would be as fiscally responsible as allowing the governemnet be in charge. IMHO

Anybody remember $150 hammers and a toilet seats?

steveOrino

[rehmwa 2]

I'd like Hillary to tell us Straight up - how much will the tax tables increase to do this.

That way I can look at my medical deduction for insurance, and compare it to the increased withholding under her program.

assumptions:
1 - employers will not reduce my pay the amount of the withholding (I don't know that)
2 - the costs will not skyrocket (unlikely) - (and the initial estimates aren't lowballed as part of her sales strategy - usually underestimated by 3x to 10x - look at the war cost estimates vs the real thing)
3 - my care will not be reduced in any way (very unlikely)

what's the bottom line for people in the various tax brackets?

I just don't see the numbers coming out positive if the assumptions are true. AND, I don't think the assumptions will hold up anyway. (and, there is lot more complexity to it that makes it even more likely to come out a BIG loss for anyone that works for a living).

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[pirana 0]

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Yes, it does, because most americans feel compassion, and we are not willing to let a 20 year old woman bleed to death in the street - even if she can't pay for care, and even if the injury was her fault. And that means that we DO have business in health care as a country.

And as a famous man once said - we've now determined what it is, now we're just trying to set the price.

You forgot the obligatory THINK OF THE CHILDREN.

But seriously, I have compassion, but do not want to pay more than my current 45% tax rate. We need some minimum reasonable level of health care for everyone, with incentives for healthy living, tight controls on fraud and abuse, and caps on administrative expenses.

We need a program that does not require more taxes. Work with what we have. If it is not enough, cut some fat elsewhere. Additional taxes are not tolerable. If I have to pay much more, I will start losing incentive to be productive. Might as well drop off the grid, become a packer, jump when I can and say FTW.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[Amazon 7]

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Anybody remember $150 hammers and a toilet seats?

That is to fund Area 51 programs



"Independence Day"

[freethefly 6]

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it is about being told we have to have insurance.

Do you feel so strongly about having the pesky mandatory car insurance? How dare the government get involved with my car!
Isn't this plan similar to the plan in Massachusets?

The government owns the roads we drive on. Driving on them is considered a privilege, not a right. If they want to require insurance to cover damages you may cause while driving on their roads they are not imposing on any right in any way.

Well, you're basicaly owned by the government. Why shouldn't they require you to have insurance. They require so many other things of us. If a program can make us a healthier nation, why not implement it. If there is room for change in it, it's a start. So far nothing is being done.
As for car insurance. We were never required to have it until sometime around 91-92. I agree that it is a good thing to have and see nothing wrong with it being mandatory. It forces us to be responsible for our actions and the same would be for mandatory health coverage.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[pop 0]

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Government has no business in health care. Your health care is your responsibility. Madicare is already in place for low income families. It is Hillary's way to seduce the low income vote that Democarats rely on.

It's up to any government to provide basic human needs for its own people. Just like we are provided with free public schooling, so should be (anyone of us) be able to have health coverage, even if we lose our jobs, get robbed, and go through any event in our life that prevents us from being able to afford health care

7 ounce wonders, music and dogs that are not into beer

[willard 0]

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it is about being told we have to have insurance.

Do you feel so strongly about having the pesky mandatory car insurance? How dare the government get involved with my car!
Isn't this plan similar to the plan in Massachusets?

The government owns the roads we drive on. Driving on them is considered a privilege, not a right. If they want to require insurance to cover damages you may cause while driving on their roads they are not imposing on any right in any way.

Well, you're basicaly owned by the government. Why shouldn't they require you to have insurance. They require so many other things of us. If a program can make us a healthier nation, why not implement it. If there is room for change in it, it's a start. So far nothing is being done.
As for car insurance. We were never required to have it until sometime around 91-92. I agree that it is a good thing to have and see nothing wrong with it being mandatory. It forces us to be responsible for our actions and the same would be for mandatory health coverage.

You may be owned by the government, but I'm not.

[rehmwa 2]

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It's up to any government to provide basic human needs for its own people.

So, you also advocate food, shelter, clothing to all be paid via tax dollars?

those are even more 'basic' than health care

last time I looked, it was my name on the check to the grocery store, my name on the mortgage

you are also not "Provided" with "FREE" public schooling. people that work and own property pay for that too. And it's not a 'basic' human need either. Vouchers are a better idea there too. That analogy has the same flawed arguments as for health care. And in that analogy, more money for schools has no correlation to better education of students, but, yet, they keep wanting more and more. Same will happen to health care - it will rival the public schooling monopoly/union structure and likely exceed it in it's crapulence.

Government 'pays' for nothing - it only 'administrates' it from taxes

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health coverage, even if we lose our jobs, get robbed, and go through any event in our life that prevents us

if you are talking about public health care that's treated like unemployment insurance, then that's a different discussion that might have a "slightly" better set of arguments - but that equivalent system is already in place

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Butters 0]

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It forces us to be responsible for our actions and the same would be for mandatory health coverage.

Sure it does ... except for the fact that the "irresponsible" people who did not have car insurance before remain "irresponsible" people who do not have car insurance now and the "responsible" people who did have car insurance before remain "responsible" people who do have car insurace now with the difference being that both the "irresponsible" and "responsible" people are required to have car insurance now.

Why require something you can't (and won't) enforce? If you can (and will) enforce it, what is the punishment?

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[Rookie120 0]

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Your gripe is health care? taxes? or just irrepressable misogyny?

I have a lot of questions and gripes about it. The cost is high on my list. The govt being involved in it period is my main bitch. Nothing they do is even close to efficient, except pork BS projects. How long under there plan until the start to regulate everything we do. Tell us what we can eat or whatnot. Will they pay for abortions? I am against that. What about some guy in San Francisco who wants to become a SHE. Is that going to be covered? What about so called medical marijuana? Is that paid for?

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[NtheSeaOrSky 0]

I'm caught up on the car insurance comparison. If someone chooses to not drive a car/have a license ... they are not required to carry insurance are they?

Life is not fair and there are no guarantees...

[kallend 1,646]

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I'm caught up on the car insurance comparison. If someone chooses to not drive a car/have a license ... they are not required to carry insurance are they?

Shitty analogy. You can choose not to drive a car. You can't choose not to be sick.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[NtheSeaOrSky 0]

No but I CAN choose to go to the doc or not

I have a cold, stay at home and let it run its course with supportive care...or run to the ER for exam, bloodwork, chest x-ray, antibiotics, etc.

Life is not fair and there are no guarantees...

[NCclimber 0]

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I'm caught up on the car insurance comparison. If someone chooses to not drive a car/have a license ... they are not required to carry insurance are they?

Shitty analogy. You can choose not to drive a car. You can't choose not to be sick.

Yeah, comparing mandatory collision insurance to Hillary's program, is a crappy analogy.

Apples and oranges.

[Thanatos340 1]

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You can't choose not to be sick.

No but you can chose to make shitty life choices (Not finishing school, Not learning a viable trade or skill) and you can chose NOT to have a Job.

Sooner or later people must accept that life Choices have consequences.

If you are too sick to work we have systems in place that will cover vital medical expenses.

I still believe the biggest problem with health insurance is that people depend on group policies (generally provided through their employer) for health Insurance. I think the best solution would be to do away with these group policies and give people a real choice in health care insurance. Individual Policies are currently way over priced because the industry caters to group policies.

Government regulation of healthcare generally only add to the costs.

[kallend 1,646]

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No but I CAN choose to go to the doc or not

I have a cold, stay at home and let it run its course with supportive care...or run to the ER for exam, bloodwork, chest x-ray, antibiotics, etc.

Try that line on someone with congenital arthritis, or who's "cold" turns out to be the first stage of TB, or a 24 y/o woman with ovarian cancer, or...

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,646]

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If you are too sick to work we have systems in place that will cover vital medical expenses.

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No, we don't have anything at all fitting the description of "a system". We have a hodge-podge patchwork of makeshift fixes.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Royd 0]

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You can't choose not to be sick.

Actually, you can. Exercise, healthy diet, don't smoke, moderation in alcohol consumption, stay away from crowds.

[NtheSeaOrSky 0]

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No, we don't have anything at all fitting the description of "a system". We have a hodge-podge patchwork of makeshift fixes.

and requiring health insurance fixes the system?

I suppose if you are a health insurance company it doesn't hurt

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Life is not fair and there are no guarantees...

[NtheSeaOrSky 0]

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Try that line on someone with congenital arthritis, or who's "cold" turns out to be the first stage of TB, or a 24 y/o woman with ovarian cancer, or...

Or a 32 year old with a faulty heart valve ? Oh wait that IS me

If someone thinks they have a fix for the system I say you wont know if it works till you try it. I, however, will not agree to being required to follow it. I have been my own insurance company for years - works out great! I get to make my decisions and some private company is not living off my money.

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Life is not fair and there are no guarantees...

[billvon 2,426]

> No but I CAN choose to go to the doc or not . . .

Not really. If it gets so bad and you collapse (and someone sees it) you will end up in the ER and someone will end up paying for it. Indeed, if that happened and the people who saw it did NOT make sure you got help, they would be at least vilified if not brought up on charges.

Again, that's how it works here.

[NtheSeaOrSky 0]

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> No but I CAN choose to go to the doc or not . . .

Not really. If it gets so bad and you collapse (and someone sees it) you will end up in the ER and someone will end up paying for it. Indeed, if that happened and the people who saw it did NOT make sure you got help, they would be at least vilified if not brought up on charges.

Again, that's how it works here.

Yes, I will end up paying for it. Not you, not the hospital, not the government. Me. My system isn't broken, it doesn't need mandatory 'fixing'

I do recognize that not everyone works this way... but requiring me to participate in something when my good decisions/sacrifices/planning presents better options for me - well I just have a problem with that

Life is not fair and there are no guarantees...

[kelpdiver 2]

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You can't choose not to be sick.

Actually, you can. Exercise, healthy diet, don't smoke, moderation in alcohol consumption, stay away from crowds.

That merely improves your odds. It won't prevent you from getting leukemia at 20, melanoma at 25, stomach cancer at 30, or even a heart attack in your 40s. Jim Fixx was one of the best distance runners ever and he died at 52.

And if hospitals can't control infectious diseases like staph, how would individuals guarantee it?

[kallend 1,646]

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You can't choose not to be sick.

Actually, you can. Exercise, healthy diet, don't smoke, moderation in alcohol consumption, stay away from crowds.

That is so obviously silly it doesn't warrant a rebuttal.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Rookie120 0]

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That is so obviously silly it doesn't warrant a rebuttal.

Funny, I feel the same about a lot of your responses.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!