JohnRich 4 #1 August 20, 2007 News:Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy Confirms that Reducing Gun Ownership by Law-Abiding Citizens Does Nothing to Reduce Violence Worldwide According to the study, worldwide gun ownership rates do not correlate with higher murder or suicide rates. In fact, many nations with high gun ownership have significantly lower murder and suicide rates. Dr. Kates and Dr. Mauser demonstrate that other developed nations such as Norway, Finland, Germany, France and Denmark maintain high rates of gun ownership, yet possess murder rates lower than other developed nations in which gun ownership is much more restricted. Dr. Kates and Dr. Mauser proceed to dispel the mainstream misconception that lower rates of violence in Europe are somehow attributable to gun control laws. Instead, they reveal, "murder in Europe was at an all-time low before the gun controls were introduced." As the authors note, "strict controls did not stem the general trend of ever-growing violent crime throughout the post-WWII industrialized world." The reason that gun ownership doesn't correlate with murder rates, the authors show, is that violent crime rates are determined instead by underlying cultural factors. "Ordinary people," they note, "simply do not murder." Rather, "the murderers are a small minority of extreme antisocial aberrants who manage to obtain guns whatever the level of gun ownership" in their society. Therefore, "banning guns cannot alleviate the socio-cultural and economic factors that are the real determinants of violence and crime rates." Source: CFIF.org Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1969912 0 #2 August 20, 2007 They consider suicide to be a crime? Is that typically done in crime statistics? Suicide shouldn't count. Pretty good finding. "Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ." -NickDG Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #3 August 20, 2007 QuoteThey consider suicide to be a crime? Is that typically done in crime statistics? Suicide shouldn't count. Pretty good finding though. He's playing fast and loose with his words. In his poll he asks about crime. Gun crimes, of course, are only a subset of crime. John likes to try to fool people this way.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #4 August 20, 2007 QuoteThey consider suicide to be a crime? Is that typically done in crime statistics? Suicide shouldn't count. I think he mentioned suicide for the sake of the argument that a gun ban will reduce suicide. But just like gun bans don't reduce crime, gun bans also don't reduce suicide. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #5 August 20, 2007 QuoteJohn likes to try to fool people this way. My oh my, a moderator who hurls personal insults. Ain't that quaint! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zipp0 1 #6 August 20, 2007 QuoteQuoteJohn likes to try to fool people this way. My oh my, a moderator who hurls personal insults. Ain't that quaint! Holy mackerel that's some thin skin there bud. That is hardly a personal insult - just a comment on his perception of your method of argument. I am not for gun control (I would love to have a machine gun but can't afford a pre-1986 full auto) but by the logic of that article the USA should be the safest country on Earth. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1969912 0 #7 August 20, 2007 QuoteQuoteThey consider suicide to be a crime? Is that typically done in crime statistics? Suicide shouldn't count. Pretty good finding though. He's playing fast and loose with his words. In his poll he asks about crime. Gun crimes, of course, are only a subset of crime. John likes to try to fool people this way. POLL More guns = more crime. More guns = less crime. There is no correlation between guns & crime. DESCRIPTION OF CRIME FROM STUDY "Therefore, "banning guns cannot alleviate the socio-cultural and economic factors that are the real determinants of violence and crime rates." Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy Confirms that Reducing Gun Ownership by Law-Abiding Citizens Does Nothing to Reduce Violence Worldwide According to the study, worldwide gun ownership rates do not correlate with higher murder or suicide rates. In fact, many nations with high gun ownership have significantly lower murder and suicide rates. Dr. Kates and Dr. Mauser demonstrate that other developed nations such as Norway, Finland, Germany, France and Denmark maintain high rates of gun ownership, yet possess murder rates lower than other developed nations in which gun ownership is much more restricted. Dr. Kates and Dr. Mauser proceed to dispel the mainstream misconception that lower rates of violence in Europe are somehow attributable to gun control laws. Instead, they reveal, "murder in Europe was at an all-time low before the gun controls were introduced." As the authors note, "strict controls did not stem the general trend of ever-growing violent crime throughout the post-WWII industrialized world." The reason that gun ownership doesn't correlate with murder rates, the authors show, is that violent crime rates are determined instead by underlying cultural factors. "Ordinary people," they note, "simply do not murder." Rather, "the murderers are a small minority of extreme antisocial aberrants who manage to obtain guns whatever the level of gun ownership" in their society. Therefore, "banning guns cannot alleviate the socio-cultural and economic factors that are the real determinants of violence and crime rates." "Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ." -NickDG Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #8 August 20, 2007 You'll notice that in the article quoted there is a rather lengthy discussion about what is being talked about that precedes the statement. However, even the article is a rehashed and rather misleading interpretation of the actual study in question. John takes it one step further with the wording of his poll. So, now let's take a look at where all this "information" John has provided came from shall we? Center for Individual Freedom is a 501(c) paid for by whoever has the most cash today for whatever purpose they what to push. It is part of Townhall.com. So, let's pay less attention to their opinion and more to the actual paper in question, which can be downloaded in its entirety here. Quoting from this paper, Quote Moreover, if the deterrent effect of gun ownership accounts for low violence rates in high gun ownership nations other than the United States, one wonders why that deterrent effect would be amplified there. Even with the drop in United States murder rates that Lott and Mustard attribute to the massive increase in gun carry licensing, the United States murder rate is still eight times higher than Norway’s—even though the U.S. has an almost 300% higher rate of gun ownership. I guess the good folks over at the Center for Individual Freedom didn't read that part. At any rate, I believe the entire paper is flawed as it tries to correlate data from completely different cultures with our own which they pretty much say in their own conclusion! Quote CONCLUSION This Article has reviewed a significant amount of evidence from a wide variety of international sources. Each individual portion of evidence is subject to cavil—at the very least the general obj ection that the persuasiveness of social scientific evidence cannot remotely approach the persuasiveness of conclusions in the physical sciences. Hilarious.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1969912 0 #9 August 20, 2007 I need a beer. "Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ." -NickDG Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1969912 0 #10 August 20, 2007 QuoteQuoteJohn likes to try to fool people this way. My oh my, a moderator who hurls personal insults. Ain't that quaint! John, are you going to defend youself? "Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ." -NickDG Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #11 August 20, 2007 QuoteThey consider suicide to be a crime? Is that typically done in crime statistics? Suicide shouldn't count. It does for gun control proponents. When they say things like X people are killed every day by guns, or you're 43 times more likely to die having a gun in the house rather than kill a burglar, they're counting the suicides. Otherwise that 44 becomes a 1. I suppose it is fair to question the deterrent value based on the numbers. But to me, that argument was not very important. It may have deterrent value, but so long as it doesn't have obvious negatives, it should be allowed. CCW permit holders are one of the most law abiding subsets of our population. There's no doubt that violent crime rates in the US have declined substantially, but there are many credible and incredible explanations hoping to claim most of the credit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #12 August 20, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteJohn likes to try to fool people this way. My oh my, a moderator who hurls personal insults. Ain't that quaint! John, are you going to defend youself? There's really no defense for a claim like 'you like lying to the people, don't you?' All you can do is walk away. But I agree with him that such a statement is inappropriate coming from a moderator. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #13 August 20, 2007 QuoteThere's really no defense for a claim like 'you like lying to the people, don't you?' All you can do is walk away. Did I call him a liar? No. Did I say he likes to fool people? Yes. Much like a magician misdirects his audience in order to fool them, John attempts to misdirect people with his choice of words in order to persuade them toward his agenda. If he considers this an insult, so be it. WGASA.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1969912 0 #14 August 20, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteJohn likes to try to fool people this way. My oh my, a moderator who hurls personal insults. Ain't that quaint! John, are you going to defend youself? There's really no defense for a claim like 'you like lying to the people, don't you?' All you can do is walk away. But I agree with him that such a statement is inappropriate coming from a moderator. He never said it was inappropriate. He just laughed it off. "Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ." -NickDG Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #15 August 20, 2007 QuoteQuoteThere's really no defense for a claim like 'you like lying to the people, don't you?' All you can do is walk away. Did I call him a liar? No. Did I say he likes to fool people? Yes. Much like a magician misdirects his audience in order to fool them, John attempts to misdirect people with his choice of words in order to persuade them toward his agenda. If he considers this an insult, so be it. WGASA. Yes, it is an insult. You have stated that you know that he is trying to fool people when if fact you have no idea of the information he has or the thought processes he uses. You ASSUMED you know he is fooling people. Why? Cause you know best?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #16 August 20, 2007 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote John likes to try to fool people this way. My oh my, a moderator who hurls personal insults. Ain't that quaint! John, are you going to defend youself? There's really no defense for a claim like 'you like lying to the people, don't you?' All you can do is walk away. But I agree with him that such a statement is inappropriate coming from a moderator. It is inappropriate coming from anybody"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #17 August 20, 2007 Understand, I care even less about your opinion in this matter. JR and I have a LONG history on this web site. I think I know his motives pretty well by now. It's not exactly like they're some kind of secret. The "REAL" insult would be to do what you've done and imply that he's not smart enough to choose his words intentionally. On the contrary, I believe he chooses his words very carefully.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jgoose71 0 #18 August 21, 2007 You can look at studies untill you are blue in the face. It doesn't change the fact that in the "Gun free" zone of Virgina Tech a lot of people died and in the Trolley Square mall in Utah the shooter was stoped short by a gun packin' good guy. Criminals will always beable to get access to guns and I will always want to be able to defend my self now rather than wait hours for a cop to show up. I don't think any study will be able to change my mind, I don't need a study to know that wolves eat sheep, not other wolves."There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." Life, the Universe, and Everything Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1969912 0 #19 August 21, 2007 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote John likes to try to fool people this way. My oh my, a moderator who hurls personal insults. Ain't that quaint! John, are you going to defend youself? There's really no defense for a claim like 'you like lying to the people, don't you?' All you can do is walk away. But I agree with him that such a statement is inappropriate coming from a moderator. It is inappropriate coming from anybody Quade NEVER called him a liar. "Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ." -NickDG Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #20 August 21, 2007 QuoteDid I call him a liar? No. You dressed it up fancy, but yep, that's what you did. And while it could be that I've had a headache all day, I couldn't see any deception in this particular JohnRich posting, other than what I presume to be a facetious topic heading. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #21 August 21, 2007 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote John likes to try to fool people this way. My oh my, a moderator who hurls personal insults. Ain't that quaint! John, are you going to defend youself? There's really no defense for a claim like 'you like lying to the people, don't you?' All you can do is walk away. But I agree with him that such a statement is inappropriate coming from a moderator. It is inappropriate coming from anybody Quade NEVER called him a liar. Ya and he took a shot at me in the mean time.....and just because we don't agree on most things. Dam it, I forgot, that makes me stupid some how"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1969912 0 #22 August 21, 2007 QuoteQuoteThey consider suicide to be a crime? Is that typically done in crime statistics? Suicide shouldn't count. Pretty good finding though. He's playing fast and loose with his words. In his poll he asks about crime. Gun crimes, of course, are only a subset of crime. John likes to try to fool people this way. ----------------- THE POLL ----------------- The question after reading the summary was: More Guns = More Crime? More guns = more crime? More guns = less crime? There is no correlation between guns & crime. XXX ---------- Quade, can you show me where wordplay or an attempt to fool people has been used up to this point? What is the significance of the fact that the poll asked about crime and your statement that Gun crimes are a subset of crimes? What did you mean by "John likes to fool people this way" "Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ." -NickDG Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #23 August 21, 2007 If you can't see that the word "crime" encompasses a vast set of activities that have nothing to do whatsoever with guns, then I can't help you. If you can't see that "suicide" and "crime" don't belong in the same category, then I can't help you. If you can't see that crime behaviors in the US are wildly different than in the rest of the world, again, I can't help you.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #24 August 21, 2007 QuoteIf you can't see that the word "crime" encompasses a vast set of activities that have nothing to do whatsoever with guns, then I can't help you. If you can't see that "suicide" and "crime" don't belong in the same category, then I can't help you. If you can't see that crime behaviors in the US are wildly different than in the rest of the world, again, I can't help you. But yet you try to imply that if we had gun control like the rest of the world we'd have less crime - rather hypocritical of you.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jpjc2000 0 #25 August 21, 2007 So...did you master the art of misdirects from John? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
