Canada: Gun Registration

[JohnRich 4]

News release:

Federal gun registry has not improved public safety

Canada's homicide rate and number of gang-related murders has increased since the federal government's firearms registry and licensing program was implemented, an indication that the program has failed to improve public safety, according to "Hubris in the North, The Canadian Firearms Registry", a new report from independent research organization The Fraser Institute.

The gun registry and its supporting legislation were introduced in 1995 by the Liberal government. Justice Minister Allan Rock said at the time that registering guns and licensing their owners would save lives by reducing criminal violence, domestic violence, suicide, and firearm accidents.

But Mauser's analysis shows that public safety has not improved. He finds that overall criminal violence and suicide rates have continued their long-term decline with the violent crime rate falling by about four per cent. Yet the homicide rate has actually increased by nine per cent since the registry was implemented. No persuasive link could be found between the firearm registry and these changes.

"I don't think you can credit the gun registry for the decline in criminal violence because the data indicate the drop began well before firearms registration was introduced," Mauser said. "Moreover, homicide and criminal violence in general have fallen more in the United States during the same time period than in Canada, so it's hard to imagine the gun registry having a measurable impact in this environment."

One of the most striking findings is that gang-related homicides and homicides involving handguns have increased substantially. "Gang violence typically involves handguns and although handguns have been registered since the 1930s, this has not reduced the level of their criminal misuse," Mauser said. "The gun registry had no effect on homicide rates and was particularly ineffective against gang activity."

Despite its estimated $2 billion cost to date, the firearms registry remains notably incomplete and has an error rate that remains embarrassingly high. As a result of its many failures, particularly its failure to reduce gang violence or stop senseless killings, the firearms registry has not been able to win the trust of either the public or the police.

Source: The Fraser Institute

[rehmwa 2]

The button next to the "Create Poll" also starts threads. It's labeled "Create New".

Registering this type of private property is silly. Registering things results in them being taxed and/or confiscated.

Registering criminals is a better concept.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Richards 0]

The Conservative government has already discussed dismantling it. It remains to be seen if this is something they will follow through on or if it is just an empty promise.

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[JohnRich 4]

News update:

Canada set to repeal registration of hunting rifles, shotguns

After nearly 20 years, Canada appears poised to end one of its boldest experiments in gun control - the required registration of long guns, or shotguns and hunting rifles.

Last November, a bill to abolish the Long-Gun Registry, enacted in 1995 and gradually phased in through 2003, passed a second reading in the Canadian House of Commons by a tally of 164 to 137. It faces a third and final reading in that chamber later this year; prospects are good for passage in the Canadian Senate.

The bill would delete from federal law the obligation to register so-called nonrestricted firearms... The legislation would also require all registration information collected to date to be destroyed.

"Canadian taxpayers have shelled out $2 billion and counting to hassle hunters, farmers and sport shooters with registration requirements, while receiving nothing in return in crime reduction or prevention," Hoeppner told a recent gathering of the Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters (OFAH).

In an article written for London Free Press, Hoeppner called the registry a "massive" policy failure.

"It makes no sense to force law-abiding individuals with firearms licenses to register their long-guns," she wrote. "It makes no sense to believe the registry will prevent a gun crime from taking place..."

Source: http://www.lakelandtimes.com/main.asp?SectionID=9&SubSectionID=9&ArticleID=11192

[Skyrad 0]

Canadian issue, nthing to do with me. However, it seems quite pointless having the legislation when they have a massive open boarder with the US

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Bill C-391 (the bill to end the Long Gun Registry) still has a way to go before it becomes law. If the present government does stay the course and there is no Spring election then the bill does stand a decent chance of being passed.

But there are a few obstacles in the way.

1) The government stands a chance of falling in a week or so if the Speaker of the House rules that the government was in contempt due to the opposition demanding that censored documents related to Afghan detainees not be released to the public and the government does not want to release these documents because they claim it will compromise national security. If the Speaker does rule the government was in contempt, the government will fall, there will be a Spring 2010 election and Bill C-391 dies.

2) The gun registry is very much a rural versus urban issue. Bill C-391 has gotten this far because rural members of the opposition have voted in favor with the government because the rural opposition MPs know their constituents want the long gun registry to be eliminated. But it is possible that the leaders of the opposition parties will demand a "whipped voted" meaning all their MPs must vote along party lines and this could also defeat the bill. I can't see this happening, since it pretty much will end whatever rural support the opposition has (most of the opposition relies on it's urban followers). But you never know.

So Bill C-391 is still alive and the insanity of the "Long Gun Registry" could be coming to an end soon (possibly before the end of the year).
But there are still several hurdles to over come first. Oh and despite what the Liberal left continue to tell their lemmings, criminals do not register their weapons. It was a stupid idea that wasted 2+ billion dollars and gun crimes continue in Canada.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[SkyDekker 1,147]

Criminals tend not to obey any laws. Are you advocating absolutely no laws related to guns?

If you are advocating any law, what makes you think a criminal would follow that law?

Minors cannot purchase guns in Canada. Minors have clearly purchased guns in Canada, so they clearly do not obey that law. Do you think that law should change to?

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Do you even know the existing firearm laws in this country?
I am advocating passing Bill C-391. Nothing more nothing less.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[SkyDekker 1,147]

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Oh and despite what the Liberal left continue to tell their lemmings, criminals do not register their weapons.

That was your argument, back it up.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

You have been spending too long hanging out there in left field with the rest of the Center of Universe nanny state dependent dweebs of this nation. I chimed in to inform John (and whoever else who may be interested) that "Bill C-391" a bill to eliminate the need to register rifles and shotguns is NOT yet a done deal. Despite the outlook that Bill C-391 may become law, several hurdles must still be over come. There is nothing else to say despite the bullshit that the resident spin doctor wants to engage in.

To anyone that wants to stay on topic, the 2+ billion dollar Canadian Long Gun Registry is still in effect even though an amnesty for existing owners has been extended. In Canada, if you are an owner to any sort of firearm, you are still expected to possess a PAL or an RPAL and you are still expected to register your firearms and obey all the existing firearm laws. Nothing less, nothing more.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[SkyDekker 1,147]

So you can't back it up...fair enough, I figured as much, it is by far the most stupid argument. But a favourite talking point to throw out there.

Irony being that in the same post you accuse liberals of being lemmings.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Back what up? The insanity that the LIEberal Party of Canada spent 2+ billion dollars on a relatively simple networked database application that was only supposed to cost 2 million dollars under the false guise that all gun crime would forever be eliminated in this country once each and every firearms owner registered their weapons. Shit any competent private software development shop could have created the same networked database application for approximately 10 million dollars. But the LPC spent 2+ billion ...

I will say this, your ability to act as a spin doctor is well tuned. But I am not going to fall for your bullshit. If the LIEberal Party of Canada does not feel that criminals would register their weapons then why did they create this fiasco in the first place? If they do not believe in their own propaganda that their beloved database would keep all their lemmings safe from the evil gun, then this fiasco was only created to allow them to steal billions of dollars from the tax payers and get away with theft.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[JohnRich 4]

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criminals do not register their weapons.

That was your argument, back it up.

Prove that they do.

[wolfriverjoe 1,354]

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criminals do not register their weapons.

That was your argument, back it up.

Prove that they do.

They don't have to.

At least not here in the US. It's gone up a few levels in the appellate system. (No, I'm not going to go seach for proof).

The basic argument was that a felon can't legally posses a weapon in the first place. Becuse of that, registering the weapon would constitute self-incrimination.

Since the bill of rights protects against forced self-incrimination, forcing someone who can't legally own a weapon to register it (and by doing so, tell the police that he has a weapon) isn't allowed.

So they can't be prosecuted for failing to register the weapon.
They can still be prosecuted for felon in possession of it, but not for possession of an unregistered weapon.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[pbwing 0]

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Shit any competent private software development shop could have created the same networked database application for approximately 10 million dollars. But the LPC spent 2+ billion ...

Sadly, it was developed by a 'private software development shop'...a company that I used to work for until I was so disgusted by the whole fiasco that I quit 5 months after starting...

[Andy9o8 0]

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Since the bill of rights protects against forced self-incrimination, forcing someone who can't legally own a weapon to register it (and by doing so, tell the police that he has a weapon) isn't allowed.

So they can't be prosecuted for failing to register the weapon.

Ah, so sorry. That defense has been tried, and alas, failed, in prosecutions for income tax evasion: "I didn't come by my income legally, and reporting it would constitute self-incrimination, so I neither have to report it nor pay taxes on it." FAIL. A person who (a) owns a gun unlawfully, and (b) fails to register said gun, is guilty of TWO offenses - (a) and (b).

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Sadly, it was developed by a 'private software development shop'...a company that I used to work for until I was so disgusted by the whole fiasco that I quit 5 months after starting...

Well I must assume then that you know more about the internals of the system than I do. I am assuming that the data model is relatively simple and the only complexities lie in the network connectivity. So if I can throw a ball park figure out there, the system should have been built for somewhere in the neighborhood of approximately 10 million dollars and throw in another million or so for maintenance since it's inception. It is still mind boggling how it ballooned to being the 2+ billion dollars white elephant that it is.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[CanuckInUSA 0]

BTW ... for those who care and are not aware of this, Bill C-391 does not mean handguns and other "restricted" firearms are not going to be controlled if the Bill becomes law. Bill C-391 only speaks for eliminating the need for people who possess PALs and RPALs (the licenses needed to be obtained if someone wants to own firearms) the need to register their "non-restricted" firearms. These "non-restricted" firearms are typically long barreled rifles and long barreled shotguns. Handguns and other "restricted" firearms are not effected by Bill C-391. People will still need to register their "restricted" firearms. But the spin doctors will never tell you this.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[wolfriverjoe 1,354]

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Since the bill of rights protects against forced self-incrimination, forcing someone who can't legally own a weapon to register it (and by doing so, tell the police that he has a weapon) isn't allowed.

So they can't be prosecuted for failing to register the weapon.

Ah, so sorry. That defense has been tried, and alas, failed, in prosecutions for income tax evasion: "I didn't come by my income legally, and reporting it would constitute self-incrimination, so I neither have to report it nor pay taxes on it." FAIL. A person who (a) owns a gun unlawfully, and (b) fails to register said gun, is guilty of TWO offenses - (a) and (b).

US v Haynes, 1968.

http://www.nraila.org/Issues/articles/read.aspx?ID=22

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[Andy9o8 0]

Hm. OK, I'll check to see if that's been supplemented by any later cases or statutes. Thanks.

[wolfriverjoe 1,354]

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Hm. OK, I'll check to see if that's been supplemented by any later cases or statutes. Thanks.

It may well have been.

There is something about the Gun Control Act of '68 being worded to accomodate this (accomodate meaning make the registration non-self-incriminatory - if that's a real term).

But the registration laws of different states and/or cities still falls under this, IIRC.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[kelpdiver 2]

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Hm. OK, I'll check to see if that's been supplemented by any later cases or statutes. Thanks.

It may well have been.

There is something about the Gun Control Act of '68 being worded to accomodate this (accomodate meaning make the registration non-self-incriminatory - if that's a real term).

But the registration laws of different states and/or cities still falls under this, IIRC.

It may be as simple as rights aren't equal. When it comes to the government getting paid, rules change.

[SkyDekker 1,147]

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Back what up?

back up your reasoning by continuing it.....Should all laws regarding firearms be taken off the books because criminals will not follow them anyways?

Or are you able to decide which laws criminals will follow and which they won't?

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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back up your reasoning by continuing it.....Should all laws regarding firearms be taken off the books because criminals will not follow them anyways?

Or are you able to decide which laws criminals will follow and which they won't?

'

I support the passage of Bill C-391. Nothing more, nothing less. Take your bullshit spin doctor tactics somewhere else because you are full of it. Back on topic ... the end of the "Long Gun Registry" looks promising but it still has numerous hurdles to overcome.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[timmyfitz 0]

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Back what up?

back up your reasoning by continuing it.....Should all laws regarding firearms be taken off the books because criminals will not follow them anyways?

Or are you able to decide which laws criminals will follow and which they won't?

Many laws are not made to deter crime. They are made so that law enforcement and the courts can deal with the criminals after the fact. Criminals don't obey laws. That's why they are called criminals.