Israel Crimes-Israeli Apartheid. From an Israelis point of view.

[idrankwhat 0]

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Please point out the Concentration camps with the smoking chimneys on Google Earth...Mass graves out in the Negev Desert will do as well....I would like to see proof.

Looks like we've gone full circle in this thread. I apologize for allowing myself to get baited back into the typical shit fest. That will teach me to read a crapload of material and try to elevate the conversation from the typical name calling and talking point regurgitation that always accompanies discussions on this topic. The only think sadder than ignorance is wanton ignorance. Sorry if I wasted anyone's fucking time. Please return to your comfortable pre-conceptions.

[juanesky 0]

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I have found you and falxori posts informative, and I find that you have kept your cool and have done lots of research that simply prove your point.

We have been down this road before on other threads. I remember one where me and a fellow DZ.comer were discussing the systematic massacre (woman and children) and destruction of Palestinians villages back in the 40s. We reached the same point. You provide facts take the time to provide dates time and places. Every time you have been challenged I have not seen one person be able to challenge your facts. They seem to challenge your point of view.

I think some believe it is ok to kill woman and children as long as it is not there woman and children. I always find it amazing when people who normally value life can easily look at a number and just shrug or brush it off as necessary.

As for Juan I wouldn’t take someone who proudly refers to all Muslims as towel heads as he has done on here before seriously. That is like trying to explain to a KKK member why African Americans should have equal rights. His mind is already made up. (to the mods if this is an attack please let me know and I will remove it, however it is fact)

Here are just a few of his enlightened posts.

“I feel ok as long as it is not a towel head knocking on my door at 7 am. “

“If I see a towel head, I will make sure I send GWB's regards before helping them to get to his 72 virgins.”


You get the picture.

My advice (just from my experience in SC) don’t waist your time on people who are so lost they can not be found. The ones I care about are the ones who are looking for facts to make up their mind not the ones who have made up their minds and make up facts to go with there beliefs.

I also agree with you 100% that the problem is not one sided, however when most of the US population only gets to see a very slanted one sided view of things I find my self on the other far end just so we could met in the middle.

Lol, you are a riot Darius. How many times have you risked your life to safe Iraqi kids? or civilians? lol. Sure. You know how many Iraqies I have trained, and helped, served with, and had firefights with in the past year? Check picture ok?

Don't forget, your conditional citizenship to the US, since you have already advocated you will go to war against us if there is an Iran-US war....

About facts, you are talking about the 40's when Egypt, Palestinian, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, and Lebanon invaded British mandate lands, against Israel, forgoing the UN resolution?, no the only dead you see are palestinians muslims. You don't see how is it that muslims are the ones that have killed more muslims, but you are not enraged by that, just the Israel-Palestinian conflict.

What is the great help they get from other arab nations? well, all I see is the export of suicide bombings, and the education on that since they are babies, that is just cause for celebration isnt it darius? When are you going to step in and be outraged on what actually abusive governments, that thrive on the ignorance of their populace?

I suspect you condone their methods of killing, and rejoice when a Shiite goes to a Sunni market blwoing himself up, and kids, women, etc. You know what the smell of that is mr Factual?

I laugh at your types, you fail to see what my actions do, or see what the actions of those you protect really do. I know is hard to believe that Yassir arafat was nothing but a terrorist.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[idrankwhat 0]

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Ready to excuse them, no. I am not excusing, but I can relate to what they are going through. You see there are lots of people like you, who tend not to see the arab league really have meant, or ignore the fact that Iran's president has vowed to exterminate Israel from the face of the earth, like others have called in Fatwas, and around the world.

You keep ignoring what I have said before on what's on Arab TV-news, etc. How twisted are their constant lies, and how far behind times most Islamic nations are in the world order.

You should read a book or 2 of nagub mafouz, peter friedman (spell?) about the constant hate Israel is subjected to. Yes there has been abuse of course there has, but on the other hand no one faults their leaders and how their policies, have failed Palestinians, as well, as the fact that none of their arab brothers have never actually help them build a nation, but only create havoc, blodshed, and live as refugees in their lands (when they were not getting killed by them).

So, there, you also are ok that their tactics is to target civilians, apparently you are not outraged by that fact, (really sounds interesting (rolling eyes icon)).

How many times have Israel conceded territory? can you check on that? tell us your discoveries pls.

Have a great wonderland day.

I may have made my last post pre-maturely. This is a reasonable addition to the discussion. I may or may not return to this discussion I don't know yet. But I do want you to know that I don't condone Palestinian war crimes. Pointing out how Israel has failed to pursue peace doesn't mean that the Palestinians haven't hindered it as well.

[juanesky 0]

Well, that is fairly common in that part of the world. Blam Israel first. Lets use ambulances with redcross to plant bombs, and have Israeli forces shot at them, and then claim Durka durka (read they are shooting our innocent).

I seen the same tactics in Iraq, everyone losses.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[wmw999 2,121]

Well, there are a number of people who have really appreciated the time you took.

Having been done wrong to doesn't give one the right to do wrong. And doing wrong in something doesn't make everything you do wrong.

The problem is this works for both (or really, all) "sides." And no one wants to admit it.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Darius11 12]

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Don't forget, your conditional citizenship to the US, since you have already advocated you will go to war against us if there is an Iran-US war....

When did i say that?

Provide a link where I said “if the US attacks Iran I will side with Iran and go to war against the US”
I can gladly provide a link to what I quoted you to say as a matter of fact I copied and pasted.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1058183;search_string=towel%20head;#1058183


http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1036779;search_string=towel%20head;#1036779


So how about this you provide where I said exactly what you say I did, and then I will look at the other questions. You are lacking credibility.

You see most every post you have made has ZERO facts they are made just to inflame so prove me wrong with a link; unless of course you are just making shit up as usual.

Now I will go back to ignoring you until I see your link to where I said “if the US attacks Iran I will side with Iran and go to war against the US”


Ball is in your court

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[JohnRich 4]

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Provide a link where I said “if the US attacks Iran I will side with Iran and go to war against the US”

You also once said this:

"I think any proud citizen of any country would choose die or fight to the death when their country is being invaded."

So, if Iran was to set off a nuclear explosion in America, as they have threatened to do, and since you are now an American citizen, would you then be willing to die fighting against Iran, for America?

[JohnRich 4]

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I think some believe it is ok to kill woman and children as long as it is not there woman and children. I always find it amazing when people who normally value life can easily look at a number and just shrug or brush it off as necessary.

In the thread you started, titled "Why are people from Texas such savage Barbarians?", you said this:

"I see a lot of posts where people call Muslims crazy, barbaric, or backwards. Why are they so violent? Well this is how you’re fellow Texans act when one of their children is hurt in a non life-threatening manner. I wonder what we would do if a country were responsible for thousands of our children’s death… Turn the other cheek? I somehow doubt that. I wonder how we would react if we had to go through what we put other people through."

Weren't you making justification for the terrorist attacks of muslims against Israeli's, based upon retaliation for perceived wrongs?

Doesn't that contradict what you just said now, about how such deaths shouldn't be construed as "necessary"?

[idrankwhat 0]

Allrighty, It would probably be a better use of my time to go shoot billiards with a rope but here goes. There are a few things more that I've wanted to mention about the situation in the West Bank that most people are unaware of and that pertain directly to the subject of this thread.

The "apartheid" term, I believe, is appropriate to describe the conditions in the West Bank. There are two groups of people living in the same area with one completely dominating and controlling the other and a policy of unequal rights, and with basic human rights being denied.
Some examples of the oppressive tactics that Israel is employing include:
Routine confiscation of land and destruction of Palestinian property with no compensation, typically for "security" purposes. The delay/blocking of shipments of produce, mostly at the Allenby bridge into Jordan, until it rots, justified by the notion that it would negatively impact the economics of Israeli farmers or because a member of the Palestinian family spoke publically against the occupation. Palestinian farmers not being allowed to replant trees that have died. Ancient olive orchards being bulldozed. Untreated sewage from illegal Israeli hilltop settlements running into the fields and villiages below. Schools and bookstores closed and padlocked leaving unemployed educators and students out on the streets. Then, if the Palestinians get angry and protest tanks and bulldozers are sent in to destroy the homes of anyone involved, even if the involvement constisted of no more than watching. B'Tselem, the Israeli Information Center for Human Rights has reported that an average of twelve Palestinian familes have lost their homes for every one family that has participated in attacks against Israelis, including throwing stones. Many Palestinians are rounded up and detained for any number of reasons, men women and children. Once in jail they can be kept indefinitely with no charge or contact with counsel. If they are eventually charged it's often along the lines of "disturbing the peace". They are often kept in civilian jails but are subjected to military tribunals, so basically the military gets to be the accuser, judge and jury.
Jimmy Carter's book "Peace, Not Apartheid" refers to one of the uglier examples, in Hebron, an area with a number of significant holy sites. About 450 militant jewish settlers have moved in with several thousand Israeli soldiers for protection. The UN reports that there are about 150 checkpoints in and around the city. The settlers are heavily armed. The confiscate homes adjacent to theirs and drive Palestinians away from the holy sites, accusing them of being tresspassers. Sometimes the confrontations are quite physical and deliberate. When this happens the military imposes long curfews on the 150,000 Palestinian residents, keeping them from any normal daily activities such as work, school, going to the market. Many Palestinians believe that the intent is to drive them away from the area. I think they might have a valid argument.
And to top it off, money sent as aid to the Palestinians, even money from USAID, is intercepted and either withheld or used in settlement development. Israel denies that the money is used for settlement activity but they don't deny that is often withheld. They said that they confiscate it so that it doesn't get diverted to finance violent acts and that, since Israeli farmed products have priority in the marketplace, that it doesn't make sense to allow the Palestinians to enhance the development of their agriculture.

To be continued.

[crozby 0]

I'm interested to know who posting here has spent any significant amount of time in Israel, and whether they travelled around and witnessed any of the "apartheid" spoken of by idrankwhat at first hand.

[idrankwhat 0]

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I'm interested to know who posting here has spent any significant amount of time in Israel, and whether they travelled around and witnessed any of the "apartheid" spoken of by idrankwhat at first hand.

I'll be the first to admit that I have not. My primary sources for this information have been the Carter Center and B'Tselem, the Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories.
http://www.btselem.org/English/index.asp

[Darius11 12]

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Don't forget, your conditional citizenship to the US, since you have already advocated you will go to war against us if there is an Iran-US war....

24 hours and still nothing ha. Weird you were posting right away before you made your false statement. Ok now you know why I ignore your posts. They have no facts and their roots are planted in hate and nothing more.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[idrankwhat 0]

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I'm interested to know who posting here has spent any significant amount of time in Israel, and whether they travelled around and witnessed any of the "apartheid" spoken of by idrankwhat at first hand.

If interested, here's some video.
http://www.btselem.org/English/Video/Index.asp

[idrankwhat 0]

I don't want to be accused of being a post hog but it's getting kinda quiet in this thread. Hopefully that's because people are busy reading and watching the videos on the B'Tselem site. I've had enough of them for one day.
I just wanted to add a few points about the illegal settlements and their impact on the West Bank and the proposed Palestinian "state". The settlement activity is unauthorized and illegal as referenced in UNSCR 242 and the fouth Geneva Convention. Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention states "...the Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population in the territory it occupies." That seems clear enough that Israel's actions constitute a clear violation. I'm not sure precisely what the current conditions are but in Clinton's proposed plan there were to be buffer zones surrounding settlement footprints. They are to extend about 400 meters outward from the settlements and are a zone in which no Palestinian is allowed to enter. There were also earmarking areas that were either Israeli only roads between the settlements or they were "life arteries" that supplied water, electricity, sewage and communications to the settlements. These "life artery" zones are to be anywhere from 500 to 4000 meters wide and no Palestinian enter or cross the area. Some of these prohibited zones cross from Israel, through the proposed Palestinian "state" to the Jordan River valley. I can hardly see how this could lead to the stated goal of a sovereign, contiguous, viable Palestinian state.

[idrankwhat 0]

Still awfully quiet. Maybe some balance will help. But you have to read both otherwise you're only getting part of the picture.

http://www.btselem.org/english/Gaza_Strip/20070625_Gilad_Shalit.asp

http://www.btselem.org/english/Testimonies/20070322_Police_Officers_torure_and_abuse_workers_witness_Hamamdah.asp

[amibovered 0]

the fact that Iran's president has vowed to exterminate Israel from the face of the earth
________________________________

source please.

If theirs a hell bellow,
We're all gonna go.

[kelpdiver 2]

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the fact that Iran's president has vowed to exterminate Israel from the face of the earth
________________________________

source please.

http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=11452

This is actually an AP article.

"God willing, in the near future we will witness the destruction of the corrupt occupier regime," Ahmadinejad was quoted as saying during a speech to foreign guests mostly from African, Arab and neighboring countries who attended ceremonies marking the 18th anniversary of the death of Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, who is known as the father of Iran's 1979 Islamic Revolution.

...

In October 2005, he caused outrage in the West when he said in a speech that Israel's "Zionist regime should be wiped off the map."

His supporters have argued Ahmadinejad's words were mistranslated and should have been better translated as "vanish from the pages of time" - implying Israel would vanish on its own rather be destroyed.
----

so yeah, there's a lot of wiggle room to deny a statement that he didn't vow to do it himself. But he's also the guy who hosted a holocaust denier convention and that's pretty pathetic.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Still awfully quiet.

the thread is running out of steam.

we'll take a couple weeks off and then repeat it again the next time someone needs to complain about big bad Israel.

[idrankwhat 0]

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Still awfully quiet.

the thread is running out of steam.

we'll take a couple weeks off and then repeat it again the next time someone needs to complain about big bad Israel.

Running out of steam? Are you kidding? I'm finding out more and becoming more and more disgusted every day. And why repeat it? That would be a tremendous waste of time and the typical name calling, talking point half truth arguments are what I was trying to steer away from. Facts, figures, maps, videos, photos and testimonials are much more informative, even to those who may not want that much preconception crushing information.

[kelpdiver 2]

Because it *is* a waste of time, because the two point of views used aren't reconciable.

You're looking at the oppression of the palestinians, without consideration for Israel.

We're looking at the war being waged against Israel, giving priority to their right to exist over those of their opposing force.

[idrankwhat 0]

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Because it *is* a waste of time, because the two point of views used aren't reconciable.

You're looking at the oppression of the palestinians, without consideration for Israel.

We're looking at the war being waged against Israel, giving priority to their right to exist over those of their opposing force.

Yes they are reconcilable. There is a group of people who have stated that they want Israel wiped off the map. They also have said that if Israel would return to its internationally legal borders they they WOULD INDEED recognize the state of Israel. On the other hand you have a small but influential portion of Zionists who who believe that all of the land is theirs to take, or reclaim if you prefer. That is what is happening in the West Bank. They are continuing to take land that is not theirs to take and they are doing it by force, without international consent and they are brutally oppressing and trying to "transfer" the resident population.
There is no way to have peace unless Israel stops with the illegal and inhumane expansionist activities in the West Bank. I do take into consideration what the Israelis have been through in the past but much of what they're dealing with now is preventable if they would quit the aggressive land grabbing. That's why I say, that even with what has happened to them in the past, they are bringing it on themselves right now. Have you watched any of the Israeli settler violence against the Palestinians in those videos? It's sickening, especially when I think that I'm helping to pay for it.
If Israel would leave its illegal West Bank settlements and return to its borders, the international community would come in and insure that Israel lost none of the land that is legally theirs and would take over border security. And the Palestinians, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Lebanon, even Hamas have stated that they would agree to live side by side, in peace with Israel if they would do that. To quote the Hamas Prime Minister, Ismail Haniyeh in June 2006, "We have no problem with a sovereign Palestinian state over all our lands within the 1967 borders, living in calm."
This problem is indeed reconcilable, but not until the debate is open, full and honest and all sides are held accountable.

[tbrown 26]

Darius, I didn't take the time to watch the vid link now, but I'll get to it. But I have done plenty of other reading on the same topic and I am convinced that there is a great deal of anti-Arab and anti-Palestinian racism among Israelis. I also happen to believe that racism is one of our more unfortunate human traits, found among all cultures. Personally, I think racism is an expression of ancient survival mechanisms, from a time in the distant past when different was dangerous, and it was better to kill first and ask questions later.

A few years ago up in Seattle I made friends with a guy who had returned to the US after deserting from the Israeli Army. He had been posted to the West Bank and was a "rabbit" on nightime raids on people's homes, that is it was his job to jump the front gate and then admit the other soldiers to the front yard so they could kick the door in and arrest whoever it was they were after. He got so disgusted with the whole business that he deserted and was court martialed. fortunately he was American by birth and so was able to walk away from the whole thing and return a free man to the US.

But I will also say that there is intense anti-Semitic racism throughout the Arab world. We have seen how Arab states continue to teach anti-Semitism in their schools and how they continue to permit publication of Arabic language editions of Protocols of the elders of Zion, and Hitler's Mein Kampf. The current Iranian denial of the Holocaust doesn't help things either.

The other problem is that any time Israel gives back an inch of territory, two things happen. One is that any synagogues left behind are desecrated, the other is that"somebody: (Hamas ??) starts launching rockets ever deeper into neighboring Israeli territory.

Now launching rockets is by any defintition an act of war. And when rockets are launched, without provocation, any act of retaliation necessary to stop those attacks is justifiable. that's what war is about. Wars are a lot easier to start than they are to stop. So if somebody wants to be cute and launch a truckload of Katyushas, they have no business complaining if the neighborhood gets taken out by an air strike. The Israeli government has an obligation to their people to protect them from these kind of attacks. War really sucks and people who want to commit an aggressive act need to consider the consequences it will bring on their own before they act. Of course the same goes for Israel.

The other thing you need to understnad is that Israel is a much more western culture, both racially and in its cultural values. Islam is not a popular culture in the West these days and if on a broader scale Muslims choose war with the west, we will give it to them. And we will support Israel because we identify with their values over Islamic values.


I'm not even going to say that's right or wrong (though I believe it's right), I'm just going to say that's the way it is.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[kelpdiver 2]

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Yes they are reconcilable. There is a group of people who have stated that they want Israel wiped off the map. They also have said that if Israel would return to its internationally legal borders they they WOULD INDEED recognize the state of Israel.

Too bad "they" aren't a united body, and have a history of not meeting their obligations.

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If Israel would leave its illegal West Bank settlements and return to its borders, the international community would come in and insure that Israel lost none of the land that is legally theirs and would take over border security.

In the past decade plus, millions have died in spite of the protection of the international community.

There is no reason that any body capable of defending itself would buy into either of these arguments you put forth. Only a country with no options would accept these with hope, and then get killed for such stupidity.

[idrankwhat 0]

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There is no reason that any body capable of defending itself would buy into either of these arguments you put forth. Only a country with no options would accept these with hope, and then get killed for such stupidity.

So, might makes right?

[kelpdiver 2]

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There is no reason that any body capable of defending itself would buy into either of these arguments you put forth. Only a country with no options would accept these with hope, and then get killed for such stupidity.

So, might makes right?

Might means you don't have to put up with getting killed. If an inferior force fucks with you, you get to squash them. And you certainly don't have to make sacrifices to them, esp one sided ones.