Score one for the Constitution

[Krip 2]

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bush is not the smartest president but not one time did he point fingers at the people that really caused the problems he took the crap dealt him (that was caused by others) and he had alot of crap created by the previous administration to deal with

Its easy to take responsiability when there's no consequences

Take responsiabilty and kill yourself thats the real deal

[kelpdiver 2]

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I can, but it seems you are having difficulty in that respect. Sure there were a lot of Repubs who got dererments, etc. There were also a lot of Dems. And a lot of people who were of neither party. But for you to sit there and call some of them cowards in one breath and then say Clinton wasn't in the next is so hypocritical it makes no sense at all.

go back to the 80s and early 90s. Back then, most of the GOP leadership came out of the WW2 serving era. Or Korea or Vietnam for a few of the young guns (McCain). On the other side, much of the Democratic leadership came out of the anti war movement. During this time, the GOP had no issues whatsoever making draft dodging a bit part of the campaign.

Unfortunately for them, we move forward one generation and virtually none of the GOP leadership served, and most found ways to cheat the system. Meanwhile, the Dems found a couple fighters. So the game had to be changed, or it would work against them.

Clinton clearly worked to find a way out. At least he'll admit it. GWB still claims he fullfilled his obligation. Any objective person can see he's not 1/10th the man his father was.

[mnealtx 0]

Funny how people keep talking about how many served...

For the 109th Congress:

House: 69 Rep, 48 Dem with military service
Senate: 19 Rep, 16 Dem with military service

No numbers for the 110th posted as of yet...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kelpdiver 2]

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The rescumlicans took out a contract on america in 1994. The contract has been executed to perfection. They have managed to set the USA on a path to become like the UK after WWII. The UK was a world power. After WWII, that statue had gone away forever. We are well on the way to that bitter reality. And the righties cheer the decline. It is sad... so very sad that they hold party over country so firmly.

umm, the UK took the entirety of the Nazi's western front from the summer of 1940 till DDay in 1944. Also, England owned the oceans after by the aftermath of WWII, airplanes and missiles became more important than battleships.

The US has neither change to worry about, and will remain a world power. It just won't remain THE world power.

[Amazon 7]

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bush is not the smartest president but not one time did he point fingers at the people that really caused the problems he took the crap dealt him (that was caused by others) and he had alot of crap created by the previous administration to deal with

BULLSHIT... he followed HIS Masters in the PNAC.. the NEO-CONS Cheney Wolfowitz et al ...instructions... they cherry picked intel to make it fit their fantasy world and it has bitten them all in the ass.. the cost????

THOUSANDS of dead young americans...
a Deficit that only a banker in China can love.

Anyone who was not with them was against them... that included the military professionals that KNEW BETTER.. if they disagreed.. the got retired and replaced with better YES MEN.

In the mean time( Back on thread) Our constitution has been damaged

He wanted to be a War President... what the fuck were his qualification to lead a WAR.

ZIP

[Krip 2]

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I can, but it seems you are having difficulty in that respect. Sure there were a lot of Repubs who got dererments, etc. There were also a lot of Dems. And a lot of people who were of neither party. But for you to sit there and call some of them cowards in one breath and then say Clinton wasn't in the next is so hypocritical it makes no sense at all.

go back to the 80s and early 90s. Back then, most of the GOP leadership came out of the WW2 serving era. Or Korea or Vietnam for a few of the young guns (McCain). On the other side, much of the Democratic leadership came out of the anti war movement. During this time, the GOP had no issues whatsoever making draft dodging a bit part of the campaign.

Unfortunately for them, we move forward one generation and virtually none of the GOP leadership served, and most found ways to cheat the system. Meanwhile, the Dems found a couple fighters. So the game had to be changed, or it would work against them.

Clinton clearly worked to find a way out. At least he'll admit it. GWB still claims he fullfilled his obligation. Any objective person can see he's not 1/10th the man his father was.

The politicans didn't have to "cheat the system" to avoid serving for god and country. It was called a 2S deferment prior to the lottery draft. It was the system for those that could afford it.

GW used his Daddy's connections to cheat the system. What was good for his father wasn't good enough for his son, and good old daddy pulled the strings to make it happen

[mnealtx 0]

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GW used his Daddy's connections to cheat the system. What was good for his father wasn't good enough for his son, and good old daddy pulled the strings to make it happen

This should interest you, then....

August 19, 1964 - Clinton registers for the draft--[Washington Post Sep 13 92]

September 1964 - Clinton, age 18, enters Georgetown University --[The Comeback Kid, CF Allen and J Portis, p. 20]

November 17, 1964 - Clinton is classified 2-S (student deferment) "which would shield him from the draft throughout his undergraduate years." ---[Wash Post Sep 13 92]

February 16, 1968 - "The Johnson administration unexpectedly abolished graduate deferments." --[Wash Post Sep 13 92]

March 20, 1968 - Clinton, age 21, is classified 1-A, eligible for induction, as he nears graduation from Georgetown. --[Wash Post Sep 13 92]

Comment: "The Los Angeles Times found that the future Arkansas governor was the only man of his prime draft age classified 1-A by that board in 1968 whose pre-induction physical examination was put off for 10.5 months -- more than twice as long as anyone else and more than five times longer than most area men of comparable eligibility." [Los Angeles Times Sep 02 92]

Summer 1968 - Political and family influence keeps Clinton out of the draft. Robert Corrado -- the only surviving Hot Springs draft board member from that period -- concluded that Clinton's draft statement (the long delays) was the result of "some form of preferential treatment." According to the Times, "Corrado recalled that the chairman of the three-man draft panel ... once held back Clinton's file with the explanation that 'we've got to give him time to go to Oxford,' where the term began in the fall of 1968.

"Corrado also complained that he was called by an aide to then-Sen. J. William Fulbright urging him and his fellow board members to 'give every consideration' to keep Clinton out of the draft so he could attend Oxford.

"Throughout the remainder of 1968, Corrado said, Clinton's draft file was routinely held back from consideration by the full board. Consequently, although he was classified 1-A on March 20, 1968, he was not called for his physical exam until Feb 3, 1969, when he was at Oxford."

Clinton's Uncle Raymond Clinton personally lobbied Sen Fulbright, William S. Armstrong, the chairman of the three-man Hot Springs draft board, and Lt. Cmdr. Trice Ellis, Jr., commanding officer of the local Navy reserve unit, to obtain a slot for Clinton in the Naval Reserve.

Clinton secured a "standard enlisted man's billet, not an officer's slot which would have required Clinton to serve two years on active duty beginning within 12 months of his acceptance." This Navy Reserve assignment was "created especially for the young Clinton at a time in 1968 when no existing reserve slots were open in his hometown unit."

According to the LA Times, "after about two weeks waiting for Bill Clinton to arrive for his preliminary interview and physical exam, Ellis said he called (Clinton's uncle) Raymond to inquire - 'What happened to that boy?' According to Ellis, Clinton's uncle replied - 'Don't worry about it. He won't be coming down. It's all been taken care of.' " --[LA Times Sep 02 92]

Fall 1968 - Because of the local draft board's continuing postponement of his pre-induction physical, Clinton is able to enroll at Oxford Univ. --[Wash Post Sep 13 92]

February 2, 1969 - While at Oxford, Clinton finally takes and passes a military physical examination. --[Washington Times Sep 18 92]

April 1969 - Clinton receives induction notice from the Hot Springs AR draft board. Clinton, however claims that the draft board told him to ignore the notice because it arrived after the deadline for induction. --[Wash Post Sep 13 92]

June-July 1969 - Clinton receives a second induction notice with a July 28 induction date and returns home. --[Wash Times Sep 18 92]

July 11, 1969 - Clinton's friend at Oxford, Cliff Jackson, writes that "Clinton is feverishly trying to find a way to avoid entering the Army as a drafted private. I have had several of my friends in influential positions trying to pull strings on Bill's behalf." -- [LA Times Sep 26 92]

Clinton benefitted from yet another lobbying campaign in order to evade this induction notice. "Democratic presidential candidate Bill Clinton, who has said he did not pull strings to avoid the Vietnam-era draft, was able to get his Army induction notice canceled in the summer of 1969 after a lobbying effort directed at the Republican head of the state draft agency."

Arrangements were made for Clinton to meet with Col. Williard A. Hawkins who "was the only person in Arkansas with authority to rescind a draft notice. ... The apparently successful appeal to Hawkins was planned while Clinton was finishing his first year as a Rhodes scholar in England. Clinton's former friend and Oxford classmate, Cliff Jackson -- now an avowed political critic of the candidate -- said it was pursued immediately upon Clinton's return to AR in early July 1969 to beat a Jul 28 deadline for induction." -- [LA Times Sep 26 92]

Comment: Jackson's statement is contrary to Clinton's repeated assertions that he received no special treatment in avoiding military service. "(I) never received any unusual or favorable treatment." [LA Times Sep 02 92]

August 7, 1969 - Clinton is reclassified 1-D after he arranges to enter the ROTC program at the University of Arkansas. --[Wash Post Sep 13 92]

According to Cliff Jackson, Clinton's Oxford classmate, Clinton used the ROTC program to "kill the draft notice, to avoid reporting on the July 28 induction date, which had already been postponed. And he did that by promising to serve his country in the ROTC, number one, to enroll in the law school that fall ... and he never enrolled." --[Wash Times Sep 17 92]

Comment - Clinton's admission into the ROTC program again runs contrary to his repeated statements that he received no special treatment in order to evade military service. Col Eugene Holmes, commander of the UArk ROTC program, said Clinton was admitted after pressure from the Hot Springs draft board and the office of Sen J. William Fulbright (D-AR).

Again, Clinton was receiving preferential treatment. In addition, records from the Army reveal that Clinton was not legally eligible for the ROTC program at that time. Army regulations required recruits to be enrolled at the university and attending classes full-time before being admitted to an ROTC program.

Fall 1969 - Clinton returns to Oxford for a scond year.

Clinton was supposed to be at the Arkansas Law School. However, according to Cliff Jackson, "Sen. Fulbright's office and Bill himself continued to exert tremendous pressure on poor Col. Holmes to get him [Clinton] to go back to Oxford." --[Wash Post Sep 13 92]

September 14, 1969 - The _Arkansas Gazette_, published in Little Rock, headlined a draft suspension was reportedly planned by the President.

Comment - The article, citing a source, said Selective Service reforms when implemented, would only permit the conscription of 19-year-old men. In addition, the source said "the Army would send to Vietnam only enlistees, professional soldiers, and those draftees who volunteered to go." The source contended that these reforms, combined with troop withdrawals, "would put pressure on the Congress to enact draft legislation already proposed by the President ... and set up a lottery to conscript only 19-year-old men," the _Gazette_ reported.

From his letter to Col. Holmes, it is very likely that Clinton was in the US on Sep 14 69. He was 23 years old.

September 19, 1969 - "President Nixon, facing turmoil on college campuses, suspended draft calls for November and December of 1969 and said the October call would be spread out over three months." --[Wash Post Sep 13 92]

The President also indicated that if the Congress did not act to establish a lottery system, he would remove by executive order the vulnerability to the draft of all men age 20 to 26.

Comment - Again, Clinton was 23 years old.

September-October 1969 - "At some point, Clinton decided to make himself eligible for the draft and said in February 1992 his stepfather had acted in his behalf to accomplish this. Newsweek, attributing the information to campaign officials, said this all happened in Oct 1969. [Clinton spokesperson Betsey] Wright ... said she believed it took place in September. The difference is potentially significant. ... If Clinton did not act to give up his deferment until October, he could have known he faced no liability from the draft until the following summer, that he could take his chances with the lottery and find alternative service if he got a low number." --[Wash Post Sep 13 92]

October 1, 1969 - "Nixon announced that anyone in graduate school could complete the full year." --[Wash Post Sep 13 92]

Comment - Clinton is now safe from the draft through June 1970.

October 1969 - President Nixon suspends call-up of additional draftees until a draft lottery is held in December.

October 15, 1969 - Clinton organized and led anti-war demonstrations in London. -- [Wash Times Sep 18 92]

Comment - According to McSorley, Clinton's demonstrations "had the support of British peace organizations" such as the British Peace Council, an arm of the KGB-backed World Peace Council.

October 30, 1969 - Clinton is reclassified 1-A, eligible for induction. --[Wash Times Sep 28 92]

Comment - "Clinton said he put himself into the draft by contacting his draft board in September or October and asking to be reclassified 1-A. ... It is not clear, however, whether that occurred at Clinton's urging or whether his failure to enroll at UArk automatically cancelled his 1-D deferment."

Clinton has never produced any evidence to substantiate his claim that he initiated his reclassification.

November 16, 1969 - Clinton organized and led anti-war demonstrations in London.

December 1, 1969 - Clinton draws #311 in the first draft lottery. --[Wash Times Sep 18 92]

Comment - Clinton was virtually assured that he would not be drafted because of the high lottery number.

December 3, 1969 - While still in England, Clinton writes to Col. Eugene Holmes, , commander of the UArk ROTC program and states, "From my work I came to believe that the draft system is illegitimate ... I decided to accept the draft in spite of my beliefs for one reason - to maintain my political viability."

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Amazon 7]

Gee how many of those "served" in champagne squadrons.... Come one and prove your point.

Oh and just saw your long post about all the things done in his behalf.....For an Oxford Scholar... as opposed to your Cheerleader partyboy....

Do you really think someone with a bachelors degree would have been drafted as a private???

Oh.. and since this is so important to you.. while he was avoiding the draft do you think he was going to parites and chatting up the girls and "wishing he could join up so he could go kick some commie ass"

I dont know HOW many times I heard that kind of crap back then. Seems thjose boys never managed to go.

But your boy went into the "champagne" squadron just like a former stellar performing patriot of the right did.... Dan " Potato" Quayle got one of those too.

[skydyvr 0]

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What really gets to me about the modern conservative movement is the intense selfishness of the followers. It is all about them and their followers. Me, I, mine. Screw those that don't believe. They aren't part of the real america. There is only one way, the right way, their way. Dissent is unpatriotic and unamerican. We must follow our leaders unquestionly, right over the cliff like good lemmings. The best government is no government, except when it comes to private medical decisions and who you can commit your life to. They are all about states rights, unless the states do stuff they don't approve of, like Prop 215 in California, or the Oregon assisted suicide law.

The reason that colleges and universities are usually quite liberal is very simple. Liberals are the ones with altruism. Conservatives are greedy and selfish. Why waste time working in education when you can make more money in business? What good does it do to teach people about things like philosophy and art? You can't make any money out of it.

The rescumlicans took out a contract on america in 1994. The contract has been executed to perfection. They have managed to set the USA on a path to become like the UK after WWII. The UK was a world power. After WWII, that statue had gone away forever. We are well on the way to that bitter reality. And the righties cheer the decline. It is sad... so very sad that they hold party over country so firmly.

Nice projection. Unassociated with reality but still, good job. Your use of the term "rescumlicans" is the most informative part of the piece.

. . =(_8^(1)

[skydyvr 0]

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Gee how many of those "served" in champagne squadrons.... Come one and prove your point.

He made his point with real statistics. Your "counterpoint" is so bad, I am compelled to put quotes around the word.

. . =(_8^(1)

[Butters 0]

Democrats and Republicans are guilty of corruption. Arguing over which party is more corrupt does nothing but divide our nation. Why not start working together to unite our nation and start electing Independent?

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[Amazon 7]

You just dont like the reality of what he is actually argueing for....the point is... a lot of them DID go into special posts.. that is the REALITY that keeps smacking a bunch of the "patriotic" republicans in the ass

[mnealtx 0]

No, he was worrying about how to save HIS ass...

As for the chatting up girls at parties...that doesn't seem to be much his style, now does it?
To wit:
Juanita Broaddrick (AR)- rape
Eileen Wellstone (Oxford) - rape
Elizabeth Ward Gracen - rape - quid pro quo, post incident intimidation
Regina Hopper Blakely - "forced himself on her, biting, bruising her"
Kathleen Willey (WH) - sexual assault, intimidations, threats
Sandra Allen James (DC) - sexual assault
22 Year Old 1972 (Yale) - sexual assault
Kathy Bradshaw (AK) - sexual assault
Cristy Zercher - unwelcome sexual advance, intimidations
Paula Jones (AR) - unwelcome sexual advance, exposure, bordering on sexual assault
Carolyn Moffet -unwelcome sexual advance, exposure, bordering on sexual assault
1974 student at University of Arkansas - unwelcome physical contact
1978-1980 - seven complaints per Arkansas state troopers
Monica Lewinsky - quid pro quo, post incident character assault
Gennifer Flowers - quid pro quo, post incident character assault
Dolly Kyle Browning - post incident character assault
Sally Perdue - post incident threats
Betty Dalton - rebuffed his advances, married to one of his supporters
Denise Reeder - apologetic note scanned

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Amazon 7]

In my personal experience... that kind of list can be hung on a HELL of a lot of men of that generation.. when No did not mean no.. but a maybe.. at least that is what the guys really believed.

[skydyvr 0]

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http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?username=ncclimber;


HMMMM curious

And the mystery of why most people keep their info close to the vest on dizzy com is over.

Can ncclimber expect to see bulging eyes peering in through the livingroom curtains next?

. . =(_8^(1)

[Amazon 7]

Why are you stalking him?

Nice try at another underhanded PA. I expect nothing less from you.

All you need to know about me is right there in my profile.. if someone cant stand the heat of the crap that comes out of their mouth ( figuratively) on the internet.. perhaps uttering something else might be an option.

Philly kev got to suffer at a particularly underhanded right winger.. can I expect the same???

[mnealtx 0]

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In my personal experience... that kind of list can be hung on a HELL of a lot of men of that generation.. when No did not mean no.. but a maybe.. at least that is what the guys really believed.

So that somehow excuses what he did?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Amazon 7]

I just find it interesting that so many men... live in glass houses

[skydyvr 0]

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You just dont like the reality of what he is actually argueing for....

Wrong, I just don't think, point by point, that it is reality. I think it is projection. It's what he wants to think others think.

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the point is... a lot of them DID go into special posts.. that is the REALITY that keeps smacking a bunch of the "patriotic" republicans in the ass

See Butter's post above about bipartisan corruption. Don't you agree that corruption is found in all parties?

. . =(_8^(1)

[skydyvr 0]

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Why are you stalking him?

Excuse me? I don't recall snooping over to other websites to peer into the lives of any other posters here. Do you ever recall doing that (as in earlier today)?

. . =(_8^(1)

[Krip 2]

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Democrats and Republicans are guilty of corruption. Arguing over which party is more corrupt does nothing but divide our nation. Why not start working together to unite our nation and start electing Independent?

WHAT

And ignor all the propaganda BS about neo cons, red & blues states, liberals and conservatives, right wing, left wing, Republicans and democrats, commie lovers and commie haters.

What would happen to SC if we didn't have all this intellectual BS to argue about. A lot of people have been trolled and now they can't get rid of the hook their to busy getting their rocks off in a circle jerk.

Country be damed It's all about me myself, I, and how much better us can waste time argueing about BS. Thats exactly what the special interest groups and politicians want.

To bad so sad. STOP RESISTING!!!

BTW continue with the BS circle jerk some folks want to get their rocks off again.

[Amazon 7]

I guess you would have toask him....After he got me banned he was following me around forum to forum.. I simply returned the favor.. what is good for the Gander is quite fine for the goose too.

I am still waiting for proof of all the things you have accused me of...since it only appers to have happened in your mind.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=psychiatric+in+Littleton+CO&spell=1

Now run along and please leave me alone and quit trying to push my buttons.

[skydyvr 0]

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http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=psychiatric+in+Littleton+CO&spell=1

PA!! PA!!

. . =(_8^(1)

[kelpdiver 2]

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Funny how people keep talking about how many served...

For the 109th Congress:

House: 69 Rep, 48 Dem with military service
Senate: 19 Rep, 16 Dem with military service

No numbers for the 110th posted as of yet...

How about the White House?

(and where is this listing - I'd like to see how many of these people were AWOL from the Air National Guard)

[Amazon 7]

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How about the White House?

(and where is this listing - I'd like to see how many of these people were AWOL from the Air National Guard)

Glad you asked....they ALWAYS love this site...scary that one can "serve" this honorably and rise to the presidency... My poor country... I lament thy passing.

http://www.glcq.com/