Zipp0 1 #26 February 27, 2008 What if baby seal blood was discovered to be the cleanest, most efficient fuel of the future? 1 drop could fuel your car for a year. But clubbing is the only way to extract the blood. Shooting them taints the blood somehow and renders it useless. Then what? -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #27 February 27, 2008 What's wrong with seals drinking, doing ecstasy, dancing and going deaf? My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PLFXpert 0 #28 February 27, 2008 Quote Even the WWF does not oppose the seal hunt. Um, the thread it titled "seal clubbing". Also, the response in your link concludes: Quote WWF understands that many people around the world feel strongly about the animal welfare aspects of the commercial seal hunt. There have been legitimate questions raised concerning the enforcement of regulations that are supposed to ensure the hunt is humane. As a conservation organization, this is not an area where WWF has expertise but we encourage people to contact International Fund for Animal Welfare and the Canadian Sealers Association with their concerns. (Emphasis PLFXpert)Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zipp0 1 #29 February 27, 2008 Who is making sure that the polar bears kill them humanely? I'm not an expert either, but isn't a club to the head pretty darn humane? I mean, smash my head with a baseball bat and I probably won't feel anything after that. From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal_hunting#Sealing_debate According to recent studies done by the Canadian Veterinary Medical Association (CVMA), the hakapik, when used properly, kills the animal quickly and painlessly. Several American studies carried out from 1969-1972 in the Pribilof Islands of Alaska came to the same conclusion.[30] The Royal Commission on Seals and Sealing in Canada, also known as the Malouf Commission, claims that properly performed clubbing is at least as humane as the methods used in commercial slaughterhouses, and according to the Department of Fisheries and Oceans Canada (DFO), these studies "have consistently proven that the club or hakapik is an efficient tool designed to kill the animal quickly and humanely." In 2005 the World Wildlife Fund(WWF) prompted the Independent Veterinarians Working Group(IVWG) Report, with reference to video evidence, the report states, "Perception of the seal hunt seems to be based largely on emotion, and on visual images that are often difficult even for experienced observers to interpret with certainty. While a hakapik strike on the skull of a seal appears brutal, it is humane if it achieves rapid, irreversible loss of consciousness leading to death." -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zipp0 1 #30 February 27, 2008 QuoteQuoteEven the WWF does not oppose the seal hunt. http://www.panda.org/faq/response.cfm?hdnQuestionId=11320030954082 Now why would the World Wrestling Federation have anything to say about it? I think Randy "Macho Man" Savage has Inuit roots. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PLFXpert 0 #31 February 27, 2008 Quote From: http://en.wikipedia.org/...nting#Sealing_debate Do you know how to use a hakapik "properly" (as this term is emphasised routinely in your excerpt from Wiki)? Neither do most of the people who use one. I'm open to read some other citations if you have any. Quote Who is making sure that the polar bears kill them humanely? Who is comparing humans to polar bears?Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zipp0 1 #32 February 27, 2008 Well, considering the thing looks like a hammer with an ice axe on the other side, I bet I'd figure it out in short order. Swing either side of that thing with good force and the seal is toast. And my point on the polar bear line is that nature is cruel and animals (and people) often must suffer. Like it or not humans in some parts of the world are still a part of nature. Not everyone gets their food from a supermarket, clothing from the Gap, and money from their job at Supercorp, Inc. *edited because I can't type and don't proofread. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PLFXpert 0 #33 February 27, 2008 QuoteAnd my point on the polar bear line is that nature is cruel and animals (and people) often must suffer. Like it or not humans in some parts of the world are still a part of nature. Not everyone gets their food from a supermarket, clothing from the Gap, and money from their job at Supercorp, Inc. Yes, nature can be cruel. I'm not sure what any of this has to do with you or me. Especially since I do NOT shop at the Gap.Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skippyjumps 0 #34 February 28, 2008 It is an amazing work out as well. Swinging the paddles, dragging their little white carcasses to the boats. I have to say it is one of the best work outs I have ever done. Besides that stint in the beef slaughter house!!!!!!! "whatcha doin with that lawn mower blade?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #35 February 28, 2008 Quote Quote From: http://en.wikipedia.org/...nting#Sealing_debate Do you know how to use a hakapik "properly" (as this term is emphasised routinely in your excerpt from Wiki)? Neither do most of the people who use one. I'm open to read some other citations if you have any. Quote And what is your experience using a hakapick, that you can assert this? Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PLFXpert 0 #36 February 28, 2008 Quote And what is your experience using a hakapick, that you can assert this? Silly question. There's a reason why "properly" was emphasized repeatedly in the Wiki article. The hakapik is considered "humane" by some as its purpose is to crush a seal's skull (killing it). Yet instead often it merely fractures the skull and the seal remains alive & conscious (studies estimate at least 40%) while being skinned. (Above info paraphrased from links already provided.) It's my position the hakapik is inhumane no matter how it's used. But, I suppose I must concede that if one does actually use it as intended to make one swift blow to the head of the seal, crushing its skull and killing it [Edit to remove "instantly"], then it's A-OK so long as one can ensure close to 100% efficiency instead of less than 60%. More About the Canadian Seal Hunt.Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zipp0 1 #37 February 28, 2008 When I shot a deer it didn't die instantly, and I used a high powered rifle. It died quickly, but nowhere near instantly. Few deaths in nature, or elsewhere, are instant. People die slowly and very painfully from cancer and other diseases every day. If we don't give a shit about their suffering, why care about a friggin seal? -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Windwalker 0 #38 February 28, 2008 Quote What if baby seal blood was discovered to be the cleanest, most efficient fuel of the future? 1 drop could fuel your car for a year. But clubbing is the only way to extract the blood. Shooting them taints the blood somehow and renders it useless. Then what? Then, I find out how I can invest in a seal farming operation. I would be inclined to ask about how the seals get killed though. If I had a choice, I might even invest in a farm that has a "humane kill" operation. A "humane kill" operation would use some kind of an automated clubbing mechanism that would crush there skills more consistently, thereby eliminating any suffering. No need for the cute little guys to suffer, before we use there blood. If baby seals were hideously ugly, would people actually care about them and how they get killed? ------------------------------------------------------- Windwalker Whatever doesn't kill me, just makes me cry. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PLFXpert 0 #39 February 28, 2008 QuoteWhen I shot a deer it didn't die instantly, and I used a high powered rifle. It died quickly, but nowhere near instantly. Few deaths in nature, or elsewhere, are instant. People die slowly and very painfully from cancer and other diseases every day. If we don't give a shit about their suffering, why care about a friggin seal? I used the word "instantly" once and would have easily conceded it was not the best choice of word. No big deal to eliminate it. Do you have a response other than to debate "instantly"? Your statements about cancer and whether or not people care about that have nothing to do with the topic (your friend Wiki).Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #40 February 28, 2008 >People die slowly and very painfully from cancer and other diseases >every day. If we don't give a shit about their suffering, why care about a >friggin seal? You don't give a shit about people who die slowly and painfully from cancer? I think you will change your mind if (god forbid) you watch someone else go through that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #41 February 28, 2008 QuotePeople die slowly and very painfully from cancer and other diseases every day. If we the less developed among us don't give a shit about their suffering, why care about a friggin seal? Much more accurate. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zipp0 1 #42 February 28, 2008 Quote >People die slowly and very painfully from cancer and other diseases >every day. If we don't give a shit about their suffering, why care about a >friggin seal? You don't give a shit about people who die slowly and painfully from cancer? I think you will change your mind if (god forbid) you watch someone else go through that. No, I do care. I watched my mother die like that. I'm talking about giving those people options to end the suffering - which we have made illegal. So, as a society, we really don't care. Or we act like we care, but we will not do anything about it, which, to me, is the same as not caring. When an animal is sick and suffering, like a dog, we cry and realize that keeping the animal alive is selfish, and we put the animal down as humanely as possible. People can't make that choice though(even for themselves), so really we care more about animal suffering than human suffering. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zipp0 1 #43 February 28, 2008 QuoteQuoteWhen I shot a deer it didn't die instantly, and I used a high powered rifle. It died quickly, but nowhere near instantly. Few deaths in nature, or elsewhere, are instant. People die slowly and very painfully from cancer and other diseases every day. If we don't give a shit about their suffering, why care about a friggin seal? I used the word "instantly" once and would have easily conceded it was not the best choice of word. No big deal to eliminate it. Do you have a response other than to debate "instantly"? Your statements about cancer and whether or not people care about that have nothing to do with the topic (your friend Wiki). Well, the speed of death and amount of suffering seem critical to your estimation of an humane death. So, if not instantly, how long is OK with you? 12 seconds? 2 minutes? 20 minutes? I mean, if you club a seal 5 times and it dies in 1 minute is that really any different than shooting a deer that then takes 5 minutes to die? which is more humane? What about bow hunting? Often you have to track a deer for a few hours, unless you get a perfect shot. It's all just a bit silly, in my book. Animals lower in the food chain die. We shouldn't go out of our way to induce suffering, but I'm not going to lose sleep over it either. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Royd 0 #44 February 28, 2008 Quote If baby seals were hideously ugly, would people actually care about them and how they get killed? Manatees are some ugly creatures and everybody seems to get all worked up about them. Everyone but boaters, that is! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PLFXpert 0 #45 February 28, 2008 QuoteNo, I do care. I watched my mother die like that. I'm talking about giving those people options to end the suffering - which we have made illegal. So, as a society, we really don't care. Or we act like we care, but we will not do anything about it, which, to me, is the same as not caring. When an animal is sick and suffering, like a dog, we cry and realize that keeping the animal alive is selfish, and we put the animal down as humanely as possible. People can't make that choice though(even for themselves), so really we care more about animal suffering than human suffering. Here's the problem with your argument (other than the logical fallacy): You said, "I do care" about people not having a legal option to choose to end their suffering. We do have that option for animals, however. Why not use the option for animals since it's available? That is what this debate is about. If you want to start another thread, or better yet resurrect an old one in which there has been discussion about people having an option to "end their suffering", I encourage that. And I'll respond enthusiastically, "I agree with you," if I haven't already.Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zipp0 1 #46 February 28, 2008 Quote Why not use the option for animals since it's available? That is what this debate is about. Logical fallacy? I'm getting sick of the 'strawman....red herring, logical fellatio" attempts to invalidate someone's point of view. Please, just address what I said (which YOU did, but some do not). I think the debate, at it's heart, is about whether or not it is OK for animals to suffer if the outcome benefits people(food, pelts, etc). I think that in most cases, it is OK. It's causing suffering with no benefit that it wrong, IMO. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #47 February 28, 2008 Cause it's a dog eat dog It's down to push and shove It's like, cut the cake and grab a plate And hope it goes around Well it's a do or die, It's like a cat and mouse Because everybody's hungry And there just isn't quite enough That's right we're talking about the good life In the foodchain Love amongst the ruins Everything gets to this certain dimension Winds up on a customers plate and then it's gone. Tonio K" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PLFXpert 0 #48 February 29, 2008 QuoteI think the debate, at it's heart, is about whether or not it is OK for animals to suffer if the outcome benefits people(food, pelts, etc). How does the seal hunt, in your opinion, benefit people? Food? Nope. The carcasses--after being skinned--are often left lying on the ice floes (apparently only your buddies, the polar bears, have an acquired taste for those). Pelts? OK, if you're like TOTALLY into fashion. Otherwise, what the hell do people need with pelts (i.e. fur)? QuoteIt's causing suffering with no benefit that it wrong, IMO. Cool beans. Sign the petition.Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #49 February 29, 2008 > I'm talking about giving those people options to end the suffering. Actually, they do. Pain management has come a long way, and people rarely suffer like they used to. Killing people is always considered a very last resort, although suicide is legal in a few places in such cases. But in any case if you feel that way, then surely you would support reducing suffering in people and animals as much as possible. Your post comes off as "if people have to suffer, then let the stupid seals die a horrible death" which you probably did not mean. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zipp0 1 #50 February 29, 2008 QuoteQuoteI think the debate, at it's heart, is about whether or not it is OK for animals to suffer if the outcome benefits people(food, pelts, etc). How does the seal hunt, in your opinion, benefit people? Food? Nope. The carcasses--after being skinned--are often left lying on the ice floes (apparently only your buddies, the polar bears, have an acquired taste for those). Pelts? OK, if you're like TOTALLY into fashion. Otherwise, what the hell do people need with pelts (i.e. fur)? QuoteIt's causing suffering with no benefit that it wrong, IMO. Cool beans. Sign the petition. Pelts is good enough for me. I don't want one, and won't wear one, but if someone does, go for it. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
