Is the British Military Trained by the French?

[DZJ 0]

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Jack Jacobs is an MSNBC military analyst. He is a retired U.S. Army colonel. He earned the Medal of Honor for exceptional heroism on the battlefields of Vietnam and also holds three Bronze Stars and two Silver Stars.

For a man with a lot of medals, he certainly types a lot of bollocks.

[dorbie 0]

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Jack Jacobs is an MSNBC military analyst. He is a retired U.S. Army colonel. He earned the Medal of Honor for exceptional heroism on the battlefields of Vietnam and also holds three Bronze Stars and two Silver Stars.

For a man with a lot of medals, he certainly types a lot of bollocks.

Yup, apparently they held the woman isolation and told her that everyone else had been released and if she just cooperated like they did she would be released too. It was an efective technique and AFAIK modern training doesn't tell people to gut it out for no good reason, it just ain't worth it. Phonies will believe whatever propaganda they want to believe no matter what, just witness the reactions during and after this debacle.

I hope they broadcast his bollocks in Europe so he gets his ass sued in the UK, of course CNN won't dare. That kind of empty headed shit is for domestic consumption only.

[GQ_jumper 4]

What a pussy. I can GUARANTEE you I would have said "Fuck you, I was outside your waters...Is there any deodorant in this fucking pisshole of a country?"

When they went to work on my fingernails, or showed me video of Mexican Cat Juggling, I might have caved......but only then.

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Oh how big and tough you must think you are, we have a number of military folks in this thread, a few of us with SERE school under our belts telling you that it ain't like in the 007 movies where you can stand up to gettin the piss knocked out of you for days on end and you still act like Johnny Rambo. I thought I was the ultimate badass too before I went to SERE school, I was jokin with my buddies about all the smartass things I would say if anyone ever tried to question. Let's just say I came out of there with a different attitude. and your statements on here prove nothing more than you've never experienced anything close to what these Brits went through. As tough as you THINK you are, your whole attitude changes when you suddenly lose control of your physical environment. Sure maybe they didn't put up with what the Nam POW's did, but they gave up a lot too those guys in the Hanoi Hilton. Trust me.

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

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[AMax 0]

Dan, I completely agree.

[shropshire 0]

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[vortexring 0]

Wasn't there an American marine who stuck to nothing other than name rank and number after capture by the VC? Amongst other horror's I believe they eventually broke every single bone in his body, although he did eventually come out of it all alive.

Good thing or bad thing? I know what he thinks. Bad.

I'm not going to comment on current SERE techniques because this isn't really the place. But I will comment on the fact their capture was a demonstration of poor professionalism in quite a lot of aspects.

And most importantly, when shaking the Presidents hand, what a complete tragedy no-one rammed their forehead into his face.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[Frenchy68 0]

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Until I saw this commentary, I thought i was alone in my disgust at these British Sailors lack of spine.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17972136/

What happened to this kind of Honor?

http://www.wm.edu/news/?id=3608

Don't really care about the whole irrelevant BS that made the news. However, if the Brithish mllitary had been trained by the French, they'd have gone home to some hot chicks! That's the whole purpose of wearing that 1950's cut uniform with them shiny yellow arrow thingies on the shoulders, isn't it?
And to think I got laid without riding a boat in the Persian gulf...

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[vortexring 0]

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[GQ_jumper 4]

Wasn't there an American marine who stuck to nothing other than name rank and number after capture by the VC? Amongst other horror's I believe they eventually broke every single bone in his body, although he did eventually come out of it all alive.

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Exactly, when you try and be a badass they beat the piss out of you, if you keep it up, they beat the piss out of your buddy. You have to pick and choose your fights, and besides there are other ways than just saying "fuck you" in situations like that. But if I told you more I'd have to kill you

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

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[vortexring 0]

No. Perhaps I might know more than you actually think you might think you know. No?

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[Skyrad 0]

I hate to say it and never thought I'd see the day when Royal Marines acted in such a monor but I have to agree with Col Jacobs.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

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Let me say the name, rank, serial # is more hollywood than fact. It is resist as long as possible. As I said earlier in a different thread. Intel grows stale quickly. The longer you can resist the better, but the name, rank, serial # is not taught by SF (or wasn't in the late 70s anyway)

Sure, then go to the fallback cover story... But go on TV and embarrass your country without even a smack in the head????

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Beerlight 0]

In a situation such as their's, it's not if you will give up intel, it's when. It's inevitable. Only thing to do is hold out as long as you can. When I went thru SERE school we all fuckin!! talked after many hours of interrogation by our captors. And I thought I was a badass...

[GQ_jumper 4]

No. Perhaps I might know more than you actually think you might think you know. No?

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I think that you don't think that I know what you think I thought I knew. But maybe it's just me thinkin crazy again

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

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[Scoop 0]

I don't believe anything in the media when it comes to miltary operations. Its all a propoganda tool. Media should be banned from all warzones and conflicts as far as I'm concerned. As for the sailors and marines. Im glad they are safe. They are not fucking heroes though like I keep hearing. Heroes are people that do extraordinary acts, not people who get captured. Now they are selling their stories to the papers which is disgusting, whatever happened to the official secrets act. It makes me ashamed to be British when we allow our troops to be captured without even putting up a fight.

[dorbie 0]

What exactly should be kept secret about their capture and imprisonment? Iran already knows more about it than you ever will.

What's disgusting is capricious limits on people's freedoms in all guises.

As for being captured without a fight, since when is it customary for purportedly non aggressive forces to suddenly capture prisoners with no justification or provocation. Put simply they got the drop on them. If Iran had declared war or forewarned of their aggression events might have unfolded differently, but this was a reprehensible act on a number of levels and like it or not starting a shooting match with a nation under a 'neutral' flag will always be a big deal. Iran committed an act of war without official warning or provocation, you don't have to be ashamed of our troops for not being friking psychic and deciding to start a war themselves.

[Scoop 0]

I don't think military matters should be of any concern to the public and media should not be used as a tool to manipulate truth. They also should not be making money out of doing their duties.

In my mind, if an unidentified, uninvited or aggressive force approaches a military unit, they should be issued a challenge and then engaged if they continue. Its because of political pressures and media that they are not able to do so, which kind of proves my point about news reporters and the like in war zones.

In Britain any person has a power to use any force that they felt was reasonable to defend themselves, including preemptive force. Its laughable when our nations military cant do the same

[dorbie 0]

They're making money because of an interesting event they were involved in.

BUT that's besides the point, you cited the official secrets act to gag them. What exactly is the secret you are trying to protect? Why use any pretext to deny these troops the very freedoms they wear the uniform to defend.

How do you know they're aggressive, they were flying the flag of a nation we are not at war and used it to approach with overwhelming force.

[vortexring 0]

Yeah, of course they're not heroes. Dickheads perhaps. I'm sure the two who've sold their stories may well think it wasn't such a good idea later on but who knows? Anyway, regarding your official secrets acts, didn't you ever hear of Andy McGrab & Chris Liar Ryan?

Anyway who's the 'we' who allowed their capture? The Government? The Navy? The Commander on the boarding crafts? Each individual involved? Was it lack of intelligence? Lack of firepower? Lack of a 'fuck-getting-captured-by-the-Iranians' mentality?Strategic fuck up or tactical fuck up? Or both!? Or even, an unavoidable fuck up? No.

Other than the fact British Forces...in fact, I'll change that. Other than the fact the British NAVY and the entire incident is all a bit embarrassing, I couldn't really care for the individuals involved. That's not what's really important. What is should currently be being suitably addressed.

It's all very well to comment on SERE training and Resistance to Interogation techniques but how much training would the captured sailors have had?

Then again, I wonder how much training they done to repel 'Iranian gunboats appearing from no-where and coming towards us very fast.' Probably fuck all. Somebody probably commented on the fact there's a couple of boats coming towards them; whilst the remainder stared at their approach in a trance, until, fuck me, I'm staring down the wrong end of a .50 cal! Surrender!!

edit: In the old day's if captured you'd keep to the big 4, which eventually became the big 6. The only other thing you were allowed to say was 'Sorry sir, I cannot answer that question.' Even if you were asked if you'd like a coffee you couldn't even raise your hand as a response. A bit of editing and hey presto, "Who just called the President a wanker?" or "Who dropped the bomb on Abdullahs melon?" Me!
Still, quite a good system to antagonize your captors eh?

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[Scoop 0]

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They're making money because of an interesting event they were involved in.

BUT that's besides the point, you cited the official secrets act to gag them. What exactly is the secret you are trying to protect? Why use any pretext to deny these troops the very freedoms they wear the uniform to defend.

Maybe not the official secrets act but I can't believe they are being allowed to give accounts to the papers. We have a military that is respected and feared by those that would try to cross us. That reputation is being lost

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How do you know they're aggressive, they were flying the flag of a nation we are not at war and used it to approach with overwhelming force.

Once you've issued a challenge (somehow) and they continue, I would deem that an aggressive act. Why they were put in a position to be overpowered is shameful in itself. I thought I read somewhere that a Lynx helicopter was present. If nothing else why couldnt it forewarn the activity it observed.
I cannot believe that the might of the Royal Navy did not have the ability to protect or oversee such an operation, if only in the role of early warning.

To then see the troops shaking hands and waving like loons on the telly like they are having a great day out at the pleasure beach is embarrassing (even if under duress)

[JohnRich 4]

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...my disgust at these British Sailors lack of spine.

I'm gonna get this off of my chest.

1) How come noone noticed the onrushing Iranian patrol boats until it was too late? Shouldn't the British mother warship have been nearby, and seen them coming, on radar, or by lookouts with binoculars? Was everyone asleep at the helm, like a party ship on a Med cruise?

2) Once the Iranian gunboats were seen approaching, why didn't the British warship move to intercept or intervene? Why didn't they pursue and attempt to stop the kidnapping of their men? This was an act of war, and all necessary force should have been employed to stop it. If the rules of engagement don't allow that, then they're screwed up.

3) Why did the British sailors and Marines surrender without a shot fired? Yeah, I know one of them said that if they had resisted, some of them wouldn't be here right now. Well, that's your job as sailors and Marines - you fight the enemy, not throw up your hands and surrender as soon as someone points a gun at you. Where was all the toughness for which the British Navy has been known for hundreds of years?

4) Who was the ranking officer in charge of the detainees? Why didn't he organize and motivate his men to resist?

Regarding the release, in newly made suits, with gift bags, to the British Airways plane:

5) Why did they smile, shake hands with the Iranian terrorist in chief, and act like they were on a vacation? Didn't anyone have the balls to refuse to turn his back to him, and refuse to shake his hand?

6) Why didn't they rip off their Iranian suits as they walked to the plane, leaving them behind on the tarmac, and walk proudly to the plane in their underwear, heads held high?

7) Likewise, why didn't they throw down their gift bags and leave them behind. Or gather them all up in the airplane, and throw them out the door as the plane taxiied away. Didn't anyone have any balls on that plane? What are the Iranians going to do - shoot them in the back over cheap suits and chocolate candy?

I'm disgusted too, that some form of resistance and protest wasn't offered. Even if you buy the idea that they shouldn't have engaged in a shooting match, there were other, passive forms of resistance that could have been made. Instead, it just looked a friendly vacation to uncle Mahmod, and a shopping trip to the local mall...

The person I hold most responsible for all this is whoever the highest ranking officer was in that group.

Thank you, I feel much better now.

P.S. And kudos to whoever thought to have military uniforms waiting for them on the airplane, so that when they de-planed in England, they could come out looking like sailors again, instead of like an Iranian tourist.

[Scoop 0]

For once John... I agree with you

[Duckwater 0]

OMG.....
Don Imus called them all messy haired, warm beer drinking, bad toothed French Swabbie wannabees this morning

He doesn't know when to stop does he?

[vortexring 0]

I think you've pretty much answered your own questions.

An old workmate had this shocked comment to make over a week ago regarding the matter; "Fucking hell, if it'd been us the headlines would be saying Iranians Massacred."

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[dorbie 0]

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OMG.....
Don Imus called them all messy haired, warm beer drinking, bad toothed French Swabbie wannabees this morning

He doesn't know when to stop does he?

It beats "tatooed nappy haired hoes", maybe the old fart had a stroke last week and we're just seeing the fallout before he's diagnosed.