Do u beleave in God

[steveorino 7]

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What do you mean by spiritually whole?
What evidence do you have that a spirit exists?
What evidence do you have that even if a spirit exists you need JC to have a whole one?

You're looking for something that does not exist. Empiracle evidence for a soul.

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True or false those that deny JC are going to hell?

Define deny

steveOrino

[JackC 0]

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What do you mean by spiritually whole?
What evidence do you have that a spirit exists?
What evidence do you have that even if a spirit exists you need JC to have a whole one?

You're looking for something that does not exist. Empiracle evidence for a soul.

Even with the lack of evidence, I'd like to know what spirit is and how you know there is a JC shaped hole in it?

[philh 0]

Well we agree on something finally. there is no emperical evidence for a soul. Now why should we believe in something when there is no emperical evidence for it? particularly something as important as this? I think we need to address the wider issue of belief. Why believe anything ? I think a reaosnable position is :
I believe in X in relation to the evidence for it, the more the evidence the more I believe. Zero evidence=zero belief.

What would be your equivalent of this statement?

To deny JC would mean to deny he existed or to deny he was devine. I do this so where am I going in the after life acoridng to Christian theology?

[steveorino 7]

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OK forget the lack of evidence, what do you mean by spirit and how do you know JC makes yours whole?

Ephesians 2:8,9 states, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast."

When one is "saved," (or made whole) he has been spiritually renewed, and is now a child of God. Many Christians believe that trusting in Jesus Christ, the One who paid the penalty of sin when He died on the cross, is what it means to be "born again" spiritually. "Therefore, if any man be in Christ, he is a new creation..." (2 Corinthians 5:17a).

steveOrino

[steveorino 7]

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Well we agree on something finally. there is no emperical evidence for a soul. Now why should we believe in something when there is no emperical evidence for it?

What empiracle evidence do you have for love?

steveOrino

[steveorino 7]

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To deny JC would mean to deny he existed or to deny he was devine. I do this so where am I going in the after life acoridng to Christian theology?

From JC himself ... "whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven" Matthew 10:33

steveOrino

[JackC 0]

Ok I know what I need to do to get my spirit hole filled. I have to have faith and then I'll be renewed and born again which apparently is desirable for some reason.

But none of that answers my question. What is spirit and how do I know there is a hole in it?

I reckon spiritualism is a bit like one of those management training programs. Being born again is like becoming a six sigma black belt guru in enterprise excellence corporate bullshit or somesuch nonsense. Sounds very flash but fundamentally doesn't mean much.

[philh 0]

Steve we went over all this already. check out page 14 and 15 of this very thread. To recap in case you cant be asked. there is plenty of evidence for love, apart form simple behavioural changes like self sacrifice MRI scans have shown people in love have activity in the same part the cortex, check out the research done by zeki and Bartel. new research by Dr Enzo Emanuele showed those newly in love have elevated levels of nerve growth factor.

[philh 0]

From JC himself ... "whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven" Matthew 10:33

A bit vindictive this Jesus chap isnt he? To deny someone who I have never seen is not equivalent to deny someone who is standing in front of me. I guess hes not good at logic either.
So JC denies me infornt of his father what happens to me after that, am I going to hell or not?

[steveorino 7]

Then don't believe dude ... sounds pretty simple to me.

steveOrino

[hairyjuan 0]

google for this vid: The holographic universe-beyond matter.



the end will make even believers in the bible happy

we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively


wishers never choose, choosers never wish

[georgerussia 0]

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Ther are many ways to look at a text, and yes, they leads to many interpretations.

This is correct for most popular texts, but not for the Bible. I can hardly remember any book which has more than one HUNDRED(!) interpretations, and all of them could be proven to be valid as long as you believe in it. And this is the book which is supposed to be inspired by God!

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However, I was addressing the atheist websites that continually only interpret texts as literal. It works to create a straw man.

So why were you addressing them to me? Did I posted links to "atheist websites", or you just have an impression that someone needs to check an atheist website to see that the Bible is full of contradictions? Sorry - you just need to carefully read it - without thinking about Perfect Good Lord every three seconds - and you'll see it yourself.

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No, as to the honor parent thing, I believe almost 100% agree he was addressing not neglecting your parents for "corban".

So here is the difference - you see plain English text, but you believe it means something different - not what it written. Then your beliefs are not different that someone's beliefs that JC wanted parents to give children a 6-pack every day. Both of you cannot stand on their accuracy of beliefs, because all you have is faith, not proof. That's why I ignore the beliefs while reading the Bible, and that's why I see a lot of contradictions you do not.

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Yes, Moses had a death curse on those who dishonored their parents, but JC changed the common interpretations of Moses many times.

This is so far the third time you are making an argument regarding what God or JC did, but did not provide any appropriate proof - for example, a quote from the Bible. This makes the discussion useless. Please stop it; if you say JC did something, please either provide a proof in form of biblical quote, or add that it is your own interpretation based on your own belief. In last case the argument is much less truthworsy though, as validity of your beliefs cannot be estimated.

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Did any records of the time indicate that God consumed the villages that rejected their good news? No.

Maybe. You cannot say it didn't happen just because it wasn't mentioned in the Bible. There is a lot of things which most likely happened (like JC farting), which are not described in the Bible.

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JC said, simply, "Give them the good news and if they accept they will be saved. If they reject the good news, leave.

So you consider "Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city." as LEAVE? Are you serious?!?

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Their rejection will equate to spiritual death which is far greater than the physical death S&G endured. Pretty simple text, unless you are a fundy that must interpret all scripture as literal.

The main problem with religion is exactly that all of you cannot interpret all scripture as literal - because it becomes clear that the Bible is full of contradictions, violence and stuff really far from "family values". However the catch is that if you start your interpretation, then someone else starts his interpretation, and at the end of the day we have a hundred religions based on the Bible, each of which says it is the only true religion. In terms of Salvation this is just a disaster.

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My interpretation is not the only way and honestly, it is not 100% correct. I'm completely fallable. But I'm doing the best I can with the knowledge I have.

No, your interpretation is not based on knowledge. It is based on beliefs.

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You're right, the common belief at that time was the blind/lame are that way because of sin. The disciples thought that as did most every Jew. JC gave them a new way to look at pain and sorrow.

Just for this man. He explicitly said that the only purpose for this man being blind is so JC could demonstrate his power.

Remember that a lot of times JC heard something wrong from his followers he corrected them immediately? So why didn't he corrected them this time?

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[georgerussia 0]

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Now if Chrsitians cant agree on this its clear Jesus at least didnt make his messgae very clear, the bible is no reall guide for life.

That's what I was going to say.
If the Bible cannot be read without interpretations, the benefit of studying the Bible is the same that studying the text consist of random words.
But if you read the Bible without interpretation, it is very contradicting, so cannot be studyed for anything useful either.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[georgerussia 0]

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I think it is impossible to be spiritually whole without JC

The ability to be "spiritally whole", and even the existence of soul itself are also subject to belief. For example, I don't believe in it, and therefore there is no way (and no reason) for me to be spiritally whole.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[badenhop 0]

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there is no way (and no reason) for me to be spiritually whole

too bad for you


prove it

==================================

I've got all I need, Jesus and gravity. Dolly Parton

http://www.AveryBadenhop.com

[georgerussia 0]

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prove it

I'll gladly show my arguments against the existence when you prove that the soul exists.
Until that - sorry, no time for trying to counter the existence of any thing you could imagine in the wild range from a soul and Jesus to Flying Spagetty Monsters and Green Invisible Curious George Which Gonna Eat Me Tomorrow.

Bad for you as well - wasting your time to care about those non-existing things instead of spending more time to care on people who do exist.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[steveorino 7]

Yes, Moses had a death curse on those who dishonored their parents, but JC changed the common interpretations of Moses many times.

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This is so far the third time you are making an argument regarding what God or JC did, but did not provide any appropriate proof - for example, a quote from the Bible. This makes the discussion useless. Please stop it; if you say JC did something, please either provide a proof in form of biblical quote, or add that it is your own interpretation based on your own belief. In last case the argument is much less truthworsy though, as validity of your beliefs cannot be estimated.

Almost the entire 5th Chapter of Matthew is the beautitudes. Almost every paragraph begins with, "You have heard it said .... Then he follows with "But I say to you" He is quoting Moses from the OT, and correcting the understanding.

The Beatitudes
1Now when he saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2and he began to teach them saying:
3"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God.
10Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Salt and Light
13"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men.
14"You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. 15Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.

The Fulfillment of the Law
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder,and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brotherwill be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.
23"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.

25"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny


27"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.'[e] 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

31"It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.'[f] 32But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.

33"Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.' 34But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; 35or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.

38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[g] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

steveOrino

[steveorino 7]

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Now if Chrsitians cant agree on this its clear Jesus at least didnt make his messgae very clear, the bible is no reall guide for life.

That's what I was going to say.
If the Bible cannot be read without interpretations, the benefit of studying the Bible is the same that studying the text consist of random words.
But if you read the Bible without interpretation, it is very contradicting, so cannot be studyed for anything useful either.

You must read some awful boring stuff. I mean imagine literature without metaphors, similis, hyperboles, idioms and figures of speech. What a boring world you must live in.

steveOrino

[skydyvr 0]

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google for this vid: The holographic universe-beyond matter.

The first 20 minutes of this is fairly cool -- sort of a Richard Bach's "Illusions, Tales of a Reluctant Messiah" for dummies.

The last 5 minutes is a sales job for Islam. Yawn.

. . =(_8^(1)

[badenhop 0]

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sorry, no time for trying to counter the existence of anything

for someone with no time you sure seem to spout off a lot around here
do you really think anything you say here even matters

i noticed you used the concept of belief, your belief, in a post
i find that somewhat ironic as you seem to give no creedence to belief

George, you do not even know me, can you be sure about how i spend my time

let me tell you, it is because i care about a God that i believe in
that i care for more people, and with more love

==================================

I've got all I need, Jesus and gravity. Dolly Parton

http://www.AveryBadenhop.com

[gontleman 0]

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Well we agree on something finally. there is no emperical evidence for a soul. Now why should we believe in something when there is no emperical evidence for it? particularly something as important as this? I think we need to address the wider issue of belief. Why believe anything ? I think a reaosnable position is :
I believe in X in relation to the evidence for it, the more the evidence the more I believe. Zero evidence=zero belief.

Semantics police here.

As far as I am aware, there are 3 distinct elements of theorized existence.

spirit, soul, and body. soul is what you think of as you, because what you think of as you, while taking place in a physical body, isnt quite a physical thing. You can argue about neural pathways from here on out if you please, but that's not what I'm getting at.

The soul is popularly characterized as the mind, heart, and will or... thoughts, emotions, and volition. Those are the 3 fundamental elements of who we are as people. So... it's best, IMHO (yeah that's worth nothing) that you say there is no emperical evidence for a spirit. Spirit is the abstract extra-dimensional consciousness etc. thing that people don't believe in. There is nothing to "believe in" about a soul. It's just a personality for lack of a better word.

Just my interpretation, but it's good to clear things up and put people on a level playing field.

[philh 0]

Im sure we all agree that in a debate between atheist and Christians that sould refers to some form of the mind that survives physcial death. All the evdience of neuro chemistry indicates that mind acitivty occurs in the brain. No brain=no mind=no soul. Thats what I mean when I deny the existence of the soul. I challenege anyone to show me any compelling evidence otherwise.

[steveorino 7]

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Im sure we all agree that in a debate between atheist and Christians that soul refers to some form of the mind that survives physcial death.

No, we don't all agree, as usual. From my theological viewpoint the soul is everlasting. It is the essence of who we really are.

steveOrino

[JackC 0]

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Im sure we all agree that in a debate between atheist and Christians that soul refers to some form of the mind that survives physcial death.

No, we don't all agree, as usual. From my theological viewpoint the soul is everlasting. It is the essence of who we really are.

Isn't that what Phil said?

[philh 0]

thank u jack , im really confused as how steve and is definition of the soul differes. Can u enlighten us Steve? Im not trying to be sarcastic I would like to know.