Do u beleave in God

[Mockingbird 0]

Not sure why it's funny, but... The context and the specific verse doesn't say that Terah had Abraham when he was 70. It says that after he turned 70, he had three sons. Apparently in that culture, the year of a man's life that marks the beginning of fatherhood is a big deal, and usually mentioned. See Noah for same thing. And Eber and Nahor in the same chapter-- Gen. 11. It tells the ages they were when they had their firstborn.

As for your second example,

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GE 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

The "lesser light" is Moon. But even the High School students know that Moon is not light, and does not emit light - just reflects the light from the Sun. Obviously the people who were writing the Bible in old ages did not know that, but the Almighty who created this planet, must know the difference between a light and a reflector, which is no way a light.

This is so obvious, only someone who truly WANTS to trump up an error would use this one. First of all, God doesn't teach science; the bible isn't a science book. Men wrote it, and the description of creation is from earth's point of view--- where man lived. To this day, we use scientifically wrong words-- "sunrise" sunset. Tonight some dz probably had night jumps because the moon is full (another inaccurate word), so they could jump by the light of the moon.

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[Mockingbird 0]

I don't nor have ever denied that evolution happened... at least, the type you're referring to. I don't know all the intricacies-- nor do I want to.

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[Mockingbird 0]

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I'm sorry but you clearly do need a much fuller explanation if you are going to make assertions on the subject.

By the way, this sounds awfully patronizing. There's no need to promote your knowledge of the subject of evolution-- I'm sure we all recognize that you know a TON more than simple-minded me. And I'm wondering what assertions you've heard me make on the subject.

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[steveorino 7]

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This means that:
- Adam was created in the way which made it impossible for him NOT to bite this apple;
- the God knew it from the beginning, and did not fix it;
- then the God blaming US because of HIS creation followed the pattern?
- and then you are saying that the God is truth and loves us?

How do you explain this?

Free will is a bummer. You either create man with it or without it. Serving and loving God with free will is 100% better than servanthood and worship from those who could not choose to do otherwise.

steveOrino

[steveorino 7]

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The main problem is that some of you want to change OUR lives according to YOUR beliefs. Nobody would have any problem with any religion if all of them kept it inside their churches.

For example, look on anti-abortion groups. If they just didn't have abortions themselves, it would be ok. But instead they are harrasing others, who do not support their beliefs, and that's why they offend me. In contrast, I am pro-abortion. But I am not preaching that everyone should have an abortion - I support the position that everyone should be free to make their own choice based on their knowledge, experience and circumstances.

That makes the difference.

Would you have preferred William Wilburforce had kept his religous convictions to himself and not influence politics with it?

steveOrino

[jakee 1,255]

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I don't nor have ever denied that evolution happened... at least, the type you're referring to. I don't know all the intricacies-- nor do I want to.

I'm referring to all of evolution, that caused life to progress from single celled organisms all the way to the myriad species, families and 'kinds' that we see today. That includes us.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[kallend 1,623]

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I don't know all the intricacies-- nor do I want to.

Ignorance is bliss!

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[bigtexan 0]

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Would you have preferred William Wilburforce had kept his religous convictions to himself and not influence politics with it?

cherry pickin references? - na.. you have to generalize behavior of the group over time.

this is where religion has its bad name...

[shortyj 0]

jakee so you believe humans came from a single organism? just asking

Playtime is essential.

[jakee 1,255]

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jakee so you believe humans came from a single organism? just asking

Not just humans.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[gontleman 0]

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It's all bullshit.

Wow, your theology sure is.

Funny that you say that. Maybes it's just because my ideas can help or hurt either side.

Laff.

EDIT: What makes me laugh even more is that some of the things I address which appeared to have no notice given to them, show up in later pages of this thread.

People keep asking for proof, other people say "what proof do you need?" The fact of the matter is that the Christian god cannot be proven for at least 2 different reasons.

#1 God cannot be manifested physically. It's all dependent on observable experiences which are not "personal". Andy's earlier comment about how god could prove he exists was taken out of context. The only real way it would be proven is if he was picked up by the invisible hand of god, LITERALLY with other people watching, and taken up 12,000 feet and then dropped. Living through a fall like defies the odds. That situation actually playing out defies reality.

#2 God so happens to not be able to be proved while there is a necessity for faith as a sign of love for those who believe.

I ask all believers "How do you know god exists?" The only answer that suffices beyond those which only pertain to their personally internalized perceptions of experiences, is that they have faith. "I just know" isn't an answer. You have a reason and your reason is faith. Faith intercedes for a lack of knowledge. It also shows your god that you love it because you choose to believe despite the doubt.

Is that some how inflammatory towards your personal beliefs? I don't think so. I think, if anything, it supports you and your beliefs. It also supports mine. Neat trick. You called my "theology" bullshit. This "theology" is just a collection of my ideas that have been turned over many times in my head to see how all the things I've been told fit together. I dont think your beliefs are bullshit. I understand why you carry them and they make sense to me. I just don't believe it.

[Andy9o8 0]

I'm wondering: does putting or , etc. at the end of an obtuse post make the post any less obtuse? Just asking.

[gontleman 0]

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jakee so you believe humans came from a single organism? just asking

Something we need to clear up here, for YOU specifically, is that evolution is not linear. "Man came from monkeys" is a linear concept. Evolution doesn't work in a straight line (except for that denoted by TIME). You say "If we came from apes why are there still apes?" Here's your answer and I hope you pay attention and understand this.

Evolution explains origin. Today's primates all descended from a common origin. If you want to call that origin "monkeys" then yes humans came from monkeys. But so did gorillas. Evolution works like a tree. You start with a seed, grow a trunk, then branches and leaves. Chimps, macaques, gorillas, baboons, and humans are all leaves on the same branch.

[billvon 2,400]

> jakee so you believe humans came from a single organism?

Just about all life on earth did. That's why we all share the same basics - a DNA-based genome, RNA synthesis of proteins, the Krebs cycle for respiration etc.

[Mockingbird 0]

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You either create man with it or without it. Serving and loving God with free will is 100% better than servanthood and worship from those who could not choose to do otherwise.

I'd never thought of it quite this way. Coerced love isn't love at all. Thanks, Steve.

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[Mockingbird 0]

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Ignorance is bliss!

There are other things I'm much more interested in... and can understand.

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[Mockingbird 0]

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I'm wondering: does putting or , etc. at the end of an obtuse post make the post any less obtuse? Just asking.

I believe it's meant to convey emotion, Andy.

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[dorbie 0]

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I'm wondering: does putting or , etc. at the end of an obtuse post make the post any less obtuse? Just asking.

Ahem,

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2697699;#2697699

Probably not as obtuse as making the body of your post an emoticon.

[georgerussia 0]

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You really should not comment on my understanding of God.
You already wrote you do not understand it.

Edit: let's see it in a different way.
So are you claiming that the overall understanding of God is getting improved?

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[georgerussia 0]

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Not sure why it's funny, but... The context and the specific verse doesn't say that Terah had Abraham when he was 70. It says that after he turned 70, he had three sons.

No, it does not says that - you can check the text, and there is no word "after", and no word "had". It says "begat", which means "to procreate as the father". Obviously it reads that he begat three sons when (or after) he was 70.

Moreover, if you check other translations (I can't read Ancient Greek, but I usually compare English translation to translations in Russian, Ukrainian and Polish) - you'll clearly see that the original (Ancient Greek) phrase meant "First Terah turn 70, and then he begat three sons".

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Apparently in that culture, the year of a man's life that marks the beginning of fatherhood is a big deal, and usually mentioned.
See Noah for same thing. And Eber and Nahor in the same chapter-- Gen. 11. It tells the ages they were when they had their firstborn.

I don't understand your logic now. First you are saying that "The context and the specific verse doesn't say that Terah had Abraham when he was 70", and then you providing additional proof that content does mean that Terah had Abraham when he was 70 (let's say exactly 70). Am I lost something?

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This is so obvious, only someone who truly WANTS to trump up an error would use this one.

And HERE we got a really big problem.
According to your reply, the book we gonna learn how to live does contain some errors. What does it mean?
- First, Christians also say that the God is perfect. This means that obviously He would not inspire a book with such a visible error any far-from-perfect human can see. So either the God is not perfect, and makes mistakes, or the Bible was not directly inspired by God.
- Second, if you admit that the book contains errors, how could we know where the errors are? Sure we can spot most obvious, but what for the rest? Note that stakes are high: a price for error is eternal life in Hell.

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First of all, God doesn't teach science; the bible isn't a science book.

But does God tell us truth, or just lying to us like telling things the Moon is light, the Sun turning around the motionless Earth and things like that?

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[bigtexan 0]

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There are other things I'm much more interested in... and can understand

then please refrain from trying to bring others into a releigion you do not understand.

If you don't understand the 'counter-point'; you cannot possibly understand the 'point'.

[georgerussia 0]

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Free will is a bummer. You either create man with it or without it.

So your God is not omniscient (and therefore not omnipotent)?
Because if He is omniscient, there is no thing like "free will" for him - as He knows the future of everyone - even for those who haven't been born yet.

But if you agree that He is omniscient, this means that what I said was true, and He knew the Adam actions even before He created him.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[georgerussia 0]

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Would you have preferred William Wilburforce had kept his religous convictions to himself and not influence politics with it?

Yes, I would if everyone else was also doing this (kept his religous convictions to himself and not influence politics with it).
Generally it would do more good than bad.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[georgerussia 0]

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jakee so you believe humans came from a single organism? just asking

Does you believe that all the people of different races and ethnics came from a single person (Noah and his wife)? Blacks, Indians, Asians?

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[dorbie 0]

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jakee so you believe humans came from a single organism? just asking

Does you believe that all the people of different races and ethnics came from a single person (Noah and his wife)? Blacks, Indians, Asians?

Both are flawed interpretations of each belief.

Populations evolve, before we had populations we do not know if there was a single ancestor, self replicating chemicals in some primordeal soup would have been subject so similar evolutionary forces and populations of complex chemicals would likely have existed and competed for millenia. You have a continuum of creatures including overlapping exchange of information through reproduction, and mutual influence on the environment from chemical soup to us, and I don't think you necessarily have instances of a single ancestor. I think that search is based on a flawed understanding of evolution, unless you have a catastrophic event and I'm thinking of a species like the cheetah that was almost extinct (through disease) and came back as almost a species of clones, but back through that nexus there are still many ancestors that contributed genetic material to the species.

The most amazing thing about evolution IMHO is the bootstrapping of the environment that gives rise to a habitat for subsequent more complex organisms.