Video of friendly fire

[GQ_jumper 4]

There is a pretty complete text transcript earlier in this thread. It incudes one pilot saying that they're screwed because of the orange panels after learning they had attacked friendly forces.

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I am reading the transcript now, being as busy as I have been all day I only was able to make it through the first page of this thread before I posted.

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You should also read a post by SkyChimp on rules of engagement and his briefings on colored panels. Argue credentials with him.

As I have said before, the enemy has these orange panels, they get their hands on all kinds of things. I'm not here to argue SkyChimp's credentials, according to his post he has served in a conflict and I'm not going to argue that, but it has been the case countless times in Iraq where our own identification measures have been used to get past us. So the simple fact that a vehicle had panels on it in no way means the pilot's didn't know what they were doing. The panels throw up the red flag that says, "confirm this target", I have yet to finish reading the transcript, I'll try and finish it up tomorrow(three hours on the phone with a loan company and I don't have the patience to read it all tonight) but from what I have read so far they were making every attempt to confirm that there were no friendlies in the area.

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

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[jakee 1,254]

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but from what I have read so far they were making every attempt to confirm that there were no friendlies in the area.

And they got it wrong - they asked about the wrong area. The pilots fucked up. There is no question about it.

You've jumped in here talking about how everyone is accusing the US of being too gung-ho and how much bullshit that is. Well in this particular incident it is absolutely correct. The UK inquiry identified the lead pilot's (on his first combat mission) almost pathological desire to kill something as being a major contributing factor to the incident, particularly the ignoring of protocol.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[shropshire 0]

Also, they were not coming under fire them selves, so at no risk. They should have reduced their altitude and confirmed the targets.

cowboys!

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[juanesky 0]

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you have it all wrong, watching black hawk down and playing HALO makes you a subject matter expert on combat

LOL!!! Roger that. By the way, when are you getting in country? any chance in you getting anywhere near LSAA in Balad? Let me know, I am planing to do a DZ.com banner on one of the migs by the SGT Smith Range, and would like to invite you to join me...and any DZ.comer over here....

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[dorbie 0]

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you have it all wrong, watching black hawk down and playing HALO makes you a subject matter expert on combat

LOL!!! Roger that.

I doubt the coroner has much experience playing HALO. The Great British HALO playing public will doubtless take note the next time the U.S. is looking for allies. They all have an equal say on the issue despite your contempt for them.

[GQ_jumper 4]

I doubt the coroner has much experience playing HALO. The Great British HALO playing public will doubtless take note the next time the U.S. is looking for allies. They all have an equal say on the issue despite your contempt for them.

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It has nothing to do with hating people that don't want to come out and play, what I take offense to is the fact that anytime there is a fratricide incident people scream about how the US is doing it on purposed and all of us who wear Old Glory on our shoulders are undisciplined gunslingers with the intent of killing everything that moves.

And Juanesky, I'm in Germany right now waiting for my connecting flight in country, I won't be near Balad but I'm sure I'll swing through there once or twice, I'll PM ya

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

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[juanesky 0]

Contempt? LOL. I agree with GQ about the orange panels, a fact you want to provide expertise on. The mistakes were due to a series of bad info from the ground up. A tragic occurrence indeed, but attributing it in the "gung-ho attitude of all american soldiers" disregarding all the training, time, sweat, blood and tears shed in order to get ready for combat, on top of sometimes very restrictive ROE's, is well, a laughing matter from people with the experience, to hear the comments from people who believe that they are experts, because they watch war movies.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[juanesky 0]

Roger. PM me, I travel a lot around here, so either up north, or in BIAP, perhaps? Juanesky out!!

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[dorbie 0]

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The mistakes were due to a series of bad info from the ground up.

Absoltely disgusting the fuckwitted pilot who got promoted after the investigating US General recommended he be disciplined, ignored the panels and asked about the WRONG location stepping over his wingman. That much is obvious from the video despite your appeals to authority and ad hominem.

You exemplify the attitude in the Pentagon that led to the embarrassing coverup that left the widow waiting years for answers.

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blood and tears shed in order to get ready for combat

The only blood shed by that pilot was British blood, so go sell that bullshit somewhere else. I'm all out of give a shit after reading your posts.

[GQ_jumper 4]

How much more do I have to do to make it clear that orange panels mean a whole lot of nothing?

The only thing an orange panel is going to do is make the person behind the trigger double check what they are about to kill. Iraqis have orange panels, plain and simple, and ht epilot did notice the panels and make an attempt to confirm the target. Once again, a grave series of mistakes was made but calling the pilots fuckwads as you have, well no matter how well you word your argument you lose a whole lot of credibility when the word fuckwad, or was it fuckwitts, or whatever else comes out of your mouth. Our soldiers aren't perfect and neither are yours, but we're put in some pretty shitty situations and do the best we can.

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[jakee 1,254]

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The mistakes were due to a series of bad info from the ground up. A tragic occurrence indeed, but attributing it in the "gung-ho attitude of all american soldiers"

Bullshit! Dude have you read any of the inquiries into this particular incident?

The mistakes came from the pilot on down. He asked for confirmation of the wrong area - that's his mistake. He shot the convoy before being cleared by FAC.

And again with the "Gung-ho attitude" the UK inquest did in fact attribute this incident in large part to the pilot's overwhelming desire to kill something before going home.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[nigel99 144]

Please understand that a formal inquest found the pilot made mistakes - not some internet chat room verdict.

Also regarding peoples opinions of US soldiers - I personally find it very interesting that the UK including some parts of its military find the US military attitude lacking in their general respect for human life. Remembering that good intentions and "nice people" does not equal being perfect or having an attitude that is out of step with the rest of the world. Here are 2 links with comments from UK sources on GENERAL US military attitudes regarding human life. I don't have the time to filter through all the stuff that has been written regarding Matty Hull to find some of the UK military comments on previous incidents and the attitude towards it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4574983.stm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=%2Fnews%2F2004%2F04%2F11%2Fwtact11.xml

In short the US should be above the "spray and pray" mentality that they appear to display. I would really like to know if there are statistics out there to show if the US really is out of step in terms of the ratio of deaths that they produce, or if it simply is a volume issue. And also in case you think that I am implying that the US is purely careless about its allies - about 25% of all US casualties are from friendly fire from what I have found.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[dorbie 0]

You are simply ignoring the facts in this case.

As for credibility, get the FACTS and stop ignoring factors an events you find uncomfortable.

[dorbie 0]

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Please understand that a formal inquest found the pilot made mistakes - not some internet chat room verdict.

Please pay attention, the coronor has never worn an American uniform, he's never put in the blood sweat, tears and blah de bulshit blah.

Nobody's fit to judge this pilot except his mom and apple pie.

SCREW the recommendations of the investigating U.S. General, give him a fucking promotion, as an old mate of mine used to say, "A kill's a kill.".

[DZJ 0]

Have been doing some archival research for an undergrad dissertation lately, and came across this.

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RAF Museum X004-1429/015

(COPY)

To: OC No.29 Squadron RAF
From: HQ 11th Wing

The following letter of instructions from the GOC 2nd Brigade is forwarded for strict compliance and communication to all pilots.

In the field
5.5. 18

(Sd) HA Van Ryneveld, Lt Col
GS/29 Commanding 11th Wing, RAF

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(COPY)

To: OC 11th Wing
From: HQ 2nd Brigade

Several cases have occurred in the last few days of machines of the Brigade bombing and shooting our own troops.

Until the weather completely clears up and visibility can be called good, no bombs of any sort will be dropped or MG fire opened at ground targets in the Corps Areas north of Ypres-Comiens canal. In this area out [sic] outpost line is some thousands of yards in advance of our own line, and most difficult to distinguish.

On the rest of the army front extreme caution must be observed by all pilots.

The front line trench system may not be bombed or shot at. It must be made clear to all pilots that ill directed bombing is likely to make low flying by our contact patrol machines impossible, owing to fire from our own infantry. If our own infantry cannot work in complete confidence in our own infantry, the results may be disastrous.

Under no circumstances whatsoever may fire from the ground be taken as a reason for dropping bombs in that vicinity.

All machines carrying bombs are to given definite objectives such as dumps, villages, roads etc. Bombing at the discretion of pilots is no longer permitted except during an attack by yourselves or the enemy. In cases of enemy attack all restrictions are removed from the threatened area for the time being, but the utmost attention must be paid to distinguishing friend from foe.

Squadron commanders are to ensure that every pilot in their command understands this order, as a Court of Enquiry and disciplinary action is likely to follow the next bombing or shooting of our own troops

In the field
5.5.18
G.14/1/227


(Sd) TI Vein-Bowen, Brig Gen
Commanding 2nd Brigade, RAF

I suppose some things never change.

[nigel99 144]

In the interests of balance I wanted to post this link...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/6295460.stm

I find it interesting that another person responsible for a friendly fire incident was promoted - however this time it was a member of the Black Watch (UK).

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.