Nick 0 #151 January 30, 2007 Quoteand my answer will be - if one life is SAVED because someone had a gun at the right time...is it worth it? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How many inoccent lives would have to be lost through people going on a rampage or kids having accidents with guns for your answer to change? I asked that question because I wanted to know how many lives were "worth it" Nick Gravity- It's not just a good idea, it's the LAW! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #152 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteand my answer will be - if one life is SAVED because someone had a gun at the right time...is it worth it? How many inoccent lives would have to be lost through people going on a rampage or kids having accidents with guns for your answer to change? How many innocent lives have to be lost to auto accidents before you advocate getting rid of cars? Do you have the same outrage for drownings? Accidental poisonings? Falls? If not, you are blaming a TOOL and not the *user* of the tool. can you explain how you can go on the rampage in a school with a gun, shooting children, if you don't have a gun ? Simple, you get a knife or a machette and panga the little dears. If you remember not long after the handgun ban in the UK some nutcase did do just that. He got a machette and went on a little limb clipping exercise. I can't remember how many kids he killed but it wasn't pretty. Simple fact is that if a psycho wants to paint the town red with kiddy claret then he'll do it gun or no gun. One could argue that those kids would be safer if the public were allowed to carry like in the US. At least then someone could have shot the mentalist before he got knackered from his chopping spree!When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nick 0 #153 January 30, 2007 It's true that Swiss soldiers are required to keep their assault rifles at home. How big is the Swiss Army? 400,000. There are about 3 million Swiss households (source). 400,000/3,000,000= 0.133. Therefore, there is a military assault rifle in about 13% of Swiss homes. Switzerland also has rather strict gun control laws. In Switzerland a permit is required in order to purchase a weapon (The permit shows that you are at least 18 and don't have a criminal record). A permit is also required to carrry a weapon. Such a permit is mostly issued to people who work in security-type occupations. To obtain this permit, you have to demonstrate that you need to carry a weapon and that you know how to handle a gun safely and have knowledge of the law regarding firearms use. Soldiers in the Swiss Army are required to store their military weapons at home under lock and key and to undergo regular training. Strict gun laws in Switzerland minimize the dangers of gun ownership. Found a good site with lots of infor on this. Nick Gravity- It's not just a good idea, it's the LAW! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #154 January 30, 2007 QuoteIt's true that Swiss soldiers are required to keep their assault rifles at home. How big is the Swiss Army? 400,000. There are about 3 million Swiss households (source). 400,000/3,000,000= 0.133. Therefore, there is a military assault rifle in about 13% of Swiss homes. Switzerland also has rather strict gun control laws. In Switzerland a permit is required in order to purchase a weapon (The permit shows that you are at least 18 and don't have a criminal record). A permit is also required to carrry a weapon. Such a permit is mostly issued to people who work in security-type occupations. To obtain this permit, you have to demonstrate that you need to carry a weapon and that you know how to handle a gun safely and have knowledge of the law regarding firearms use. Soldiers in the Swiss Army are required to store their military weapons at home under lock and key and to undergo regular training. Strict gun laws in Switzerland minimize the dangers of gun ownership. Found a good site with lots of infor on this. Good info - Now, I can't speak for all states, but in Texas, you have to submit a packet with authorization for a records search and fingerprints. You also take a training class that teaches you the laws that concern concealed carry and what you can/can't do as well as a markmanship test. Once your packet is turned in, you're vetted against local and federal databases - if it comes up clean, the state issues you a concealed carry license.* The main point of the whole argument is that it's NOT the law abiding citizen that practices concealed carry that you have to worry about - it's the chav (that *is* the correct term, is it not?) that bought a gun from the trunk of a buddy's car that you need to look out for. *And yes, there have been concealed carry holders that have commited gun crimes - they've been stripped of their licenses and punished just like any other criminal. As I recall, the percentage has been less than 1%.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nick 0 #155 January 30, 2007 At the St Lukes school attack a schizophrenic (Irving Campbell) went of the rampage with a machete. Number of dead, 0. Same year (1996) Thomas Hamilton when into the Dunblane school with a gun. Number of dead, 16. Nick Gravity- It's not just a good idea, it's the LAW! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nick 0 #156 January 30, 2007 Oh and Friedrich Leibacher killed 14 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Leibacher (don't like posting link to Wiki but this is accurate from what I can remember). Nick Gravity- It's not just a good idea, it's the LAW! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craddock 0 #157 January 30, 2007 Oklahoma city bombing killed over 160 people with the illegal use of a Vehicle. 19 children. If it is all about the children, then over here in the states we would be better off banning auto's and swimming pools. Both of these kill more kids than guns. Guns in the US actually save a lot of lives also. Unlike cars, pools, alcohol. I meAn if we can just save one child it is worth it. How many children have to die before we ban swimming? How many is justified? That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #158 January 30, 2007 Quote I meAn if we can just save one child it is worth it. How many children have to die before we ban swimming? How many is justified? and the answer needs to be a specific number, not just evasion or answering a question with a question ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nick 0 #159 January 30, 2007 So many people were quoting stats that justified what they were saying so I thought i'd join in. Nick Gravity- It's not just a good idea, it's the LAW! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #160 January 30, 2007 QuoteSo many people were quoting stats that justified what they were saying so I thought i'd join in. Did you get tired of that "how many deaths of children are worth it" angle? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nick 0 #161 January 30, 2007 I think that in the UK we showed what the number was. Nick Gravity- It's not just a good idea, it's the LAW! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,649 #162 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuote Quote2. How many US gun owners have the same level of training as the Swiss gun owners? Every US Army and Marine veteran since roughly 1965 - YOU run the numbers. And what % of the HANDgun owning population is military trained in each country?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,649 #163 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuoteRight, Canadian, Australian and English culture is SO different from US culture. How many inner city gangs in Toronto, Sydney or London are doing drive by shootings in reponse to someone "dissing" them? Again, there ARE cultural differences that help to drive crime rates whether you care to admit them or not. If it were only the availability of handguns, then every concealed carry state would have seen an INCREASE in crime when the laws were passed - as is clearly NOT the case. . If the culture is SO different, why is it that overall crime rates (including non-gun violent crimes) are so similar in these various countries, but GUN homicides are way out of line in the USA? What is it that makes GUN homicides so different from the others? Could it be the ready availability of GUNS?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #164 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteRight, Canadian, Australian and English culture is SO different from US culture. How many inner city gangs in Toronto, Sydney or London are doing drive by shootings in reponse to someone "dissing" them? Again, there ARE cultural differences that help to drive crime rates whether you care to admit them or not. If it were only the availability of handguns, then every concealed carry state would have seen an INCREASE in crime when the laws were passed - as is clearly NOT the case. Quote2. How many US gun owners have the same level of training as the Swiss gun owners? Every US Army and Marine veteran since roughly 1965 - YOU run the numbers. And what % of the HANDgun owning population is military trained in each country? You tell me - you keep purporting to know better than us "gunnies". I'll be looking for for your post the sustained rise in violent crime stats for all the concealed carry states since the inception of the concealed carry laws, as well. Nice cherry pick from your prior question #2 above, BTW, since the answer obviously didn't support your position.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #165 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteRight, Canadian, Australian and English culture is SO different from US culture. How many inner city gangs in Toronto, Sydney or London are doing drive by shootings in reponse to someone "dissing" them? Again, there ARE cultural differences that help to drive crime rates whether you care to admit them or not. If it were only the availability of handguns, then every concealed carry state would have seen an INCREASE in crime when the laws were passed - as is clearly NOT the case. . If the culture is SO different, why is it that overall crime rates (including non-gun violent crimes) are so similar in these various countries, but GUN homicides are way out of line in the USA? What is it that makes GUN homicides so different from the others? Could it be the ready availability of GUNS? If there had never been rocks, Cain would never have killed Abel...is that your argument?? I'm still waiting on those stats showing the violent crime rate rising and staying up when a state enacts concealed carry laws... all those extra handguns on the street HAVE to make things more violent per your logic.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Scoop 0 #166 January 30, 2007 As an experiment, and as I have been wanting to anyway for a long time, I made my initial application for a firearms certificate today. Not a shotgun licence but one that would allow use of semi automatic rifle or large caliber single shot rifle for 'target' use I'll keep you posted! I believe though that I have to be the member of a recognised gun club for at least six months prior to it being entertained Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #167 January 30, 2007 QuoteAs an experiment, and as I have been wanting to anyway for a long time, I made my initial application for a firearms certificate today. Not a shotgun licence but one that would allow use of semi automatic rifle or large caliber single shot rifle for 'target' use I'll keep you posted! I believe though that I have to be the member of a recognised gun club for at least six months prior to it being entertained Good luck - careful that rifle doesn't jump up and start shooting people at random, ok?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NCclimber 0 #168 January 30, 2007 QuoteIf the culture is SO different, why is it that overall crime rates (including non-gun violent crimes) are so similar in these various countries, but GUN homicides are way out of line in the USA? Do you have any sources to back back your claims? What are they? Are you implying that if guns were banned in the US, the Violent Crime and Homicide levels would be equal to current levels for all non-gun related incidents? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,649 #169 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteRight, Canadian, Australian and English culture is SO different from US culture. How many inner city gangs in Toronto, Sydney or London are doing drive by shootings in reponse to someone "dissing" them? Again, there ARE cultural differences that help to drive crime rates whether you care to admit them or not. If it were only the availability of handguns, then every concealed carry state would have seen an INCREASE in crime when the laws were passed - as is clearly NOT the case. . If the culture is SO different, why is it that overall crime rates (including non-gun violent crimes) are so similar in these various countries, but GUN homicides are way out of line in the USA? What is it that makes GUN homicides so different from the others? Could it be the ready availability of GUNS? If there had never been rocks, Cain would never have killed Abel...is that your argument?? I'm still waiting on those stats showing the violent crime rate rising and staying up when a state enacts concealed carry laws... all those extra handguns on the street HAVE to make things more violent per your logic. Avoiding the question again. PS violent crime WAS up in CCW states 2005 and first 6 months of 2006. Violent crime was down REGARDLESS of CCW status 2000-2004, across the USA.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,649 #170 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuoteIf the culture is SO different, why is it that overall crime rates (including non-gun violent crimes) are so similar in these various countries, but GUN homicides are way out of line in the USA? Do you have any sources to back back your claims? What are they? Are you implying that if guns were banned in the US, the Violent Crime and Homicide levels would be equal to current levels for all non-gun related incidents? Go check out the FBI UCR for the last 10 years, and compare with data from Canada, Australia and the UK Home Office. It has also been posted in SC previously.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rushmc 18 #171 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuoteand my answer will be - if one life is SAVED because someone had a gun at the right time...is it worth it? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How many inoccent lives would have to be lost through people going on a rampage or kids having accidents with guns for your answer to change? I asked that question because I wanted to know how many lives were "worth it" Once again, this question is nonsense. If you think it is a relavant question then you can answer this one. How many inocent lives would have to be lost, because they were not allowed guns to defend themselves, before you would change your mind? Your answer to this question could quite possibly be the exact same answer I might give.......don't you think?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Scoop 0 #172 January 30, 2007 QuoteGood luck - careful that rifle doesn't jump up and start shooting people at random, ok? It won't. You know why? Because of the tight regulations it wont get into hands of those who shouldnt be in posession of a firearm. We always talk this subject to death. The truth is, its a culture difference. I don't know a single person in the UK who feels they need a weapon to be safe so its a bit of an pointless debate. If guns were more readily availabe in the family home, there would be even more instances of their inappropriate usage. Thats is indisputable. As there is no demand it wont happen... yet. Maybe one day. But we'll decide for ourselves thanks. Its not the government flexing their muscles. Its not what the people want Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skyrad 0 #173 January 30, 2007 QuoteAs an experiment, and as I have been wanting to anyway for a long time, I made my initial application for a firearms certificate today. Not a shotgun licence but one that would allow use of semi automatic rifle or large caliber single shot rifle for 'target' use I'll keep you posted! I believe though that I have to be the member of a recognised gun club for at least six months prior to it being entertained Currently doing the same, will also let you know how it goes.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skyrad 0 #174 January 30, 2007 QuoteAt the St Lukes school attack a schizophrenic (Irving Campbell) went of the rampage with a machete. Number of dead, 0. Same year (1996) Thomas Hamilton when into the Dunblane school with a gun. Number of dead, 16. My point wasn't how many children died in comparison but that a deranged person wishing to carry out such attack will do so regardless of a gun ban or the ability of being able to obtain one (One not having anything to do with the other)When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites craddock 0 #175 January 30, 2007 Quote I don't know a single person in the UK who feels they need a weapon to be safe so its a bit of an pointless debate Just for the record I don't feel I need a weapon to be safe. I do like to own and shoot them though. I will be buying my next one in a few weeks. That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 Next Page 7 of 15 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
kallend 1,649 #163 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuoteRight, Canadian, Australian and English culture is SO different from US culture. How many inner city gangs in Toronto, Sydney or London are doing drive by shootings in reponse to someone "dissing" them? Again, there ARE cultural differences that help to drive crime rates whether you care to admit them or not. If it were only the availability of handguns, then every concealed carry state would have seen an INCREASE in crime when the laws were passed - as is clearly NOT the case. . If the culture is SO different, why is it that overall crime rates (including non-gun violent crimes) are so similar in these various countries, but GUN homicides are way out of line in the USA? What is it that makes GUN homicides so different from the others? Could it be the ready availability of GUNS?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #164 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteRight, Canadian, Australian and English culture is SO different from US culture. How many inner city gangs in Toronto, Sydney or London are doing drive by shootings in reponse to someone "dissing" them? Again, there ARE cultural differences that help to drive crime rates whether you care to admit them or not. If it were only the availability of handguns, then every concealed carry state would have seen an INCREASE in crime when the laws were passed - as is clearly NOT the case. Quote2. How many US gun owners have the same level of training as the Swiss gun owners? Every US Army and Marine veteran since roughly 1965 - YOU run the numbers. And what % of the HANDgun owning population is military trained in each country? You tell me - you keep purporting to know better than us "gunnies". I'll be looking for for your post the sustained rise in violent crime stats for all the concealed carry states since the inception of the concealed carry laws, as well. Nice cherry pick from your prior question #2 above, BTW, since the answer obviously didn't support your position.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #165 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteRight, Canadian, Australian and English culture is SO different from US culture. How many inner city gangs in Toronto, Sydney or London are doing drive by shootings in reponse to someone "dissing" them? Again, there ARE cultural differences that help to drive crime rates whether you care to admit them or not. If it were only the availability of handguns, then every concealed carry state would have seen an INCREASE in crime when the laws were passed - as is clearly NOT the case. . If the culture is SO different, why is it that overall crime rates (including non-gun violent crimes) are so similar in these various countries, but GUN homicides are way out of line in the USA? What is it that makes GUN homicides so different from the others? Could it be the ready availability of GUNS? If there had never been rocks, Cain would never have killed Abel...is that your argument?? I'm still waiting on those stats showing the violent crime rate rising and staying up when a state enacts concealed carry laws... all those extra handguns on the street HAVE to make things more violent per your logic.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scoop 0 #166 January 30, 2007 As an experiment, and as I have been wanting to anyway for a long time, I made my initial application for a firearms certificate today. Not a shotgun licence but one that would allow use of semi automatic rifle or large caliber single shot rifle for 'target' use I'll keep you posted! I believe though that I have to be the member of a recognised gun club for at least six months prior to it being entertained Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #167 January 30, 2007 QuoteAs an experiment, and as I have been wanting to anyway for a long time, I made my initial application for a firearms certificate today. Not a shotgun licence but one that would allow use of semi automatic rifle or large caliber single shot rifle for 'target' use I'll keep you posted! I believe though that I have to be the member of a recognised gun club for at least six months prior to it being entertained Good luck - careful that rifle doesn't jump up and start shooting people at random, ok?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #168 January 30, 2007 QuoteIf the culture is SO different, why is it that overall crime rates (including non-gun violent crimes) are so similar in these various countries, but GUN homicides are way out of line in the USA? Do you have any sources to back back your claims? What are they? Are you implying that if guns were banned in the US, the Violent Crime and Homicide levels would be equal to current levels for all non-gun related incidents? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,649 #169 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteRight, Canadian, Australian and English culture is SO different from US culture. How many inner city gangs in Toronto, Sydney or London are doing drive by shootings in reponse to someone "dissing" them? Again, there ARE cultural differences that help to drive crime rates whether you care to admit them or not. If it were only the availability of handguns, then every concealed carry state would have seen an INCREASE in crime when the laws were passed - as is clearly NOT the case. . If the culture is SO different, why is it that overall crime rates (including non-gun violent crimes) are so similar in these various countries, but GUN homicides are way out of line in the USA? What is it that makes GUN homicides so different from the others? Could it be the ready availability of GUNS? If there had never been rocks, Cain would never have killed Abel...is that your argument?? I'm still waiting on those stats showing the violent crime rate rising and staying up when a state enacts concealed carry laws... all those extra handguns on the street HAVE to make things more violent per your logic. Avoiding the question again. PS violent crime WAS up in CCW states 2005 and first 6 months of 2006. Violent crime was down REGARDLESS of CCW status 2000-2004, across the USA.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,649 #170 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuoteIf the culture is SO different, why is it that overall crime rates (including non-gun violent crimes) are so similar in these various countries, but GUN homicides are way out of line in the USA? Do you have any sources to back back your claims? What are they? Are you implying that if guns were banned in the US, the Violent Crime and Homicide levels would be equal to current levels for all non-gun related incidents? Go check out the FBI UCR for the last 10 years, and compare with data from Canada, Australia and the UK Home Office. It has also been posted in SC previously.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #171 January 30, 2007 QuoteQuoteand my answer will be - if one life is SAVED because someone had a gun at the right time...is it worth it? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How many inoccent lives would have to be lost through people going on a rampage or kids having accidents with guns for your answer to change? I asked that question because I wanted to know how many lives were "worth it" Once again, this question is nonsense. If you think it is a relavant question then you can answer this one. How many inocent lives would have to be lost, because they were not allowed guns to defend themselves, before you would change your mind? Your answer to this question could quite possibly be the exact same answer I might give.......don't you think?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scoop 0 #172 January 30, 2007 QuoteGood luck - careful that rifle doesn't jump up and start shooting people at random, ok? It won't. You know why? Because of the tight regulations it wont get into hands of those who shouldnt be in posession of a firearm. We always talk this subject to death. The truth is, its a culture difference. I don't know a single person in the UK who feels they need a weapon to be safe so its a bit of an pointless debate. If guns were more readily availabe in the family home, there would be even more instances of their inappropriate usage. Thats is indisputable. As there is no demand it wont happen... yet. Maybe one day. But we'll decide for ourselves thanks. Its not the government flexing their muscles. Its not what the people want Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #173 January 30, 2007 QuoteAs an experiment, and as I have been wanting to anyway for a long time, I made my initial application for a firearms certificate today. Not a shotgun licence but one that would allow use of semi automatic rifle or large caliber single shot rifle for 'target' use I'll keep you posted! I believe though that I have to be the member of a recognised gun club for at least six months prior to it being entertained Currently doing the same, will also let you know how it goes.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #174 January 30, 2007 QuoteAt the St Lukes school attack a schizophrenic (Irving Campbell) went of the rampage with a machete. Number of dead, 0. Same year (1996) Thomas Hamilton when into the Dunblane school with a gun. Number of dead, 16. My point wasn't how many children died in comparison but that a deranged person wishing to carry out such attack will do so regardless of a gun ban or the ability of being able to obtain one (One not having anything to do with the other)When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craddock 0 #175 January 30, 2007 Quote I don't know a single person in the UK who feels they need a weapon to be safe so its a bit of an pointless debate Just for the record I don't feel I need a weapon to be safe. I do like to own and shoot them though. I will be buying my next one in a few weeks. That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
