3700 dead Iraqis in October

[jcd11235 0]

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You really like to live in a fantasy world, don't you?

It's fun to watch how you predict the future would be all warm fuzzy bunnies if we would just do what you want.

Like the prediction of being welcomed in the streets as liberators? If only that one would have held true.

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[matthewcline 0]

Actually, at first we did get welcomed as such (with the exception of Sadam's tribe and family of course).

From what I remember while there.

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[kallend 1,647]

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if we were never there in the first place - would 3700 have died last month? No not at all.

Oh? You have a crystal ball and can see alternative futures? Wow!

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perhaps if the US stood up and said we were wrong, it would go a long way in establishing world peace - instead of world war...

You really like to live in a fantasy world, don't you?

?

LOL...

The only fantasy is that of the neo-cons: that an invasion based on lies and prosecuted incompetently by chickenhawks in the White House could ever achieve any outcome except a fiasco.

It has resulted in just such a fiasco, as some of us predicted 44 months ago. The faulty crystal ball is yours.

The US is in a quagmire of its own making, and the CinC's desk in the Oval Office is where the buck stops.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jcd11235 0]

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Actually, at first we did get welcomed as such (with the exception of Sadam's tribe and family of course).

From what I remember while there.

Serious question:

In all places, or just those places that are relatively peaceful even today?

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[christelsabine 1]

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if we were never there in the first place - would 3700 have died last month? No not at all.

Oh? You have a crystal ball and can see alternative futures? Wow!

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perhaps if the US stood up and said we were wrong, it would go a long way in establishing world peace - instead of world war...

You really like to live in a fantasy world, don't you?

It's fun to watch how you predict the future would be all warm fuzzy bunnies if we would just do what you want. Unfortunately, you have no such power to predict such outcomes, and doing so are just flights of fancy.

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actually it has been proven again and again that there were NO terrorists in Iraq prior to the invasion.

Sadam had lots of "terrorists" he unleashed upon his populace to keep them in line. Hundreds of thousands were slaughtered by his orders. The mass graves have been found. Have you been reading "Rolling Stone(d)" like Darius for your political news?

JohnRich, your view on the world outside the US still is one-sided. Like less than half of US citizens have. Less than 50 percent. (Gives space for hope)

Dear, it's you who is living in a fantasy world. Your fantasy world is called The Mighty US. That's a movie of yesterday.

I'm really speechless when reading your self-righteous posts. What a BS.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[kallend 1,647]

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Actually, at first we did get welcomed as such (with the exception of Sadam's tribe and family of course).

From what I remember while there.

Serious question:

In all places, or just those places that are relatively peaceful even today?

It reminds me the story told by an old guy in the Balkans. He said that when the Italians invaded, his people waved Italian flags while their resistance killed Italians. Then the Germans came, and his people waved Nazi flags while their resistance killed Germans. Then the Russians came, and his people waved Soviet flags while their resistance killed Russians.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[matthewcline 0]

At first all places except Sadam's home Village. Then bit by bit people started to realize we didn't come in to parcel the country into 3 new countries. Now the angry eyes we saw then are looking down gun barrels today.

If we did, (parcel the county out) we may have a bit more peaceful region and have 2 additional countries in the world market. After all they happened to be independent nation-tribes till we (along with the UK and others from Europe) gave them the borders (restrictions) they have now.

I hit post before I got to read the Prof. post. He is most likely right to make the analogy. In hind sight I am sure that did happen too. I also think we would do the same here in the US till we got organized.

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[kallend 1,647]

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I hit post before I got to read the Prof. post. He is most likely right to make the analogy. In hind sight I am sure that did happen too. I also think we would do the same here in the US till we got organized.

Of course we would.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Amazon 7]

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The US is in a quagmire of its own making, and the CinC's desk in the Oval Office is where the buck stops.

They are argueing that it stops EVERYWHERE EXCEPT the C in C's desk...he is infallible... and has been provided with plausible deniability by minions willing to take the fall...I wonder if the GENERALS they are trying to blame are going to be good little boys and fall on the sword for GLORIOUS LEADER.

[matthewcline 0]

No they won't!
At least I pray they won't as it would mean they abandoned their charges when they did it!

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[tkhayes 140]

I live in a fantasy world? - actually I live in a REALITY WORLD! - are you telling me that the REALITY is working? My 'fantasy' far outweighs your (or anybody's) reality.

AND thankfully, it's not just MY 'fantasy' anymore, it is the majority of the American public.

lies, duped, swindled, dead Americans, and for what cause? $500B debt and a bunch of dead soldiers and the situation worse than ever.

get a life -
TK

[airdvr 200]

It never ceases to amaze me how people assume they know more than people whose full time task is to figure this thing out.

if we were never there in the first place - would 3700 have died last month? No not at all.

Far more than that were dying there before we got involved.

"Along with other human rights organizations, The Documental Centre for Human Rights in Iraq has compiled documentation on over 600,000 civilian executions in Iraq. Human Rights Watch reports that in one operation alone, the Anfal, Saddam killed 100,000 Kurdish Iraqis. Another 500,000 are estimated to have died in Saddam's needless war with Iran. Coldly taken as a daily average for the 24 years of Saddam's reign, these numbers give us a horrifying picture of between 70 and 125 civilian deaths per day for every one of Saddam's 8,000-odd days in power." GBN


Isn't it strange that this is Muslims killing Muslims? Why do they do that? Could it be they know we don't have the intestinal fortitude to finsh this war? That all of you secular progressives will whine and cry until the din gets so loud people think leaving is the right thing to do. When will you figure out that this is the war that will never end? Iraq, Pakistan, the Phillipines, Iran...it doesn't matter. We'll be fighting terrorists forever; unless we just give in now. ANd if you think they'll be passified with an apology think again. They want us dead, and have for quite some time now. You can't negotiate with people whose starting position is that you and I don't exist.

Don't misunderstand me...I don't like this war. I don't think it's been handled as effectively as it should have been. I was pleased to see Rummy go. Clearly we need a different tack. But I don't think leaving is the answer.

In any war civilian deaths occur. Look at the numbers from WWII:

Non-comabatant deaths
Killed by the European Axis Powers.
Jews
At least 5.1 million according to Hilberg
At least 5.75 million according to Gilbert.
Reitlinger estimates 4,194,200 to 4,581,200. He also quotes the Anglo-American Commitees figures from April, 1946 of 5,721,800. He qualifies his own estimates with the note, "Owing to the lack of reliable information at the time of writing, these figures must be regarded as conjectural."
Poles
Approximately 5,384,000 about 50% of whom were Jews according to Lukas.
At the siege of Leningrad approximately 1 million
3.3 million POW's according to Streit.
Romani and Sinti
250,000-1,000,000 according to sources cited by Hancock
Over 200,000 were killed in the official euthanasia campaign, 1939-41. There is no way to know how many were killed outside the campaign. "No reliable figures exist for the spontaneous killings."
British and American POW's
8,348 according to Streit.
Homosexuals
3,000-9,000 German homosexuals according to Whitman.
5,000-15,000 according to Lautmann
The Nanking massacre:
about 300,000 deaths and 20,000 rapes.
Killed by the Western Allies.
Japanese civilian dead:
2 million
Hiroshima:
about 138,890 according to Gilbert.
Nagasaki:
about 48,857according to Gilbert.
Tokyo bombings:
"On May 24, more than four hundred American bombers dropped 3,646 tons of bombs on central Tokyo, and on the industrial areas in the south of the city. More than a thousand Japanese were killed."
Tokyo, March 1945: "83,793 Japanese civilians killed. That was the official minimum death toll; later, 130,000 deaths were 'confirmed' by the Japanese authorities."
Nagoya, Osaka, Kobe, Yokohama, Kawasaki March-May 1945:
"more than a quarter of a million"
German civilians killed by bombing
In total about 800,000 according to Gilbert.
Hamburg, July 1943:
42,000
Dresden, February 1945:
"39,773 'officially identified dead' were found in the city and registered, most of them burned to death. At least 20,000 more bodies were buried beneath ruins, or incinerated beyond recognition, even as bodies.
Killed by the USSR.
Germans
Gilbert says that the German government estimates a total of 3.6 million German civilians were killed; he does not specify how many were killed by Eastern vs. Western allies.
Katyn massacre of Polish prisoners.
On 5 March 1940 L. Beria signed an execution order for 25,700 Polish captives. A 1956 memo from KGB chief Shelepin to Khrushchev confirmed 21,257 of these exections at the following sites.
Katyn: 4,421
Starobelsk Camp: 3,820
Ostashkov Camp: 6,311
Other places of detention: 7,305.
The Katyn murders were later blamed on the Nazis by the Soviets


I'm not condoning it just showing that it can be worse. And it was far worse in Iraq under Saddam. Leave now and we might as well just turn over our country and start figuring out which direction we should be kneeling.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[jcd11235 0]

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It never ceases to amaze me how people assume they know more than people whose full time task is to figure this thing out.

if we were never there in the first place - would 3700 have died last month? No not at all.

Far more than that were dying there before we got involved.

"Along with other human rights organizations, The Documental Centre for Human Rights in Iraq has compiled documentation on over 600,000 civilian executions in Iraq. Human Rights Watch reports that in one operation alone, the Anfal, Saddam killed 100,000 Kurdish Iraqis. Another 500,000 are estimated to have died in Saddam's needless war with Iran. Coldly taken as a daily average for the 24 years of Saddam's reign, these numbers give us a horrifying picture of between 70 and 125 civilian deaths per day for every one of Saddam's 8,000-odd days in power." GBN

By your numbers:

600 000/(24*12)=2084 dead Iraqi' in an average month under Saddam

About 1600 more Iraqis died from our war in Iraq last month than an average month under Saddam.

Between Operation Desert Storm (over 100 000)and Operation Iraqi Liberation Freedom (between 400 000 and 900 000 according to Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Health), the US invasions and occupations killed Iraqis at a much higher rate than Saddam did without our help.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[kallend 1,647]

Oh, that's a new one. Hitler, Stalin, Mao etc. are now used as comparisons for Bush's quagmire in Iraq.

Face reality, the US of A f*cked up this one, big time, to satisfy the ego of George "I want to be a War President" Bush.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[airdvr 200]

Fuzzy math...try 600,000 + 500,000. Even if it was only 500,000...we should just let it continue?

Between 400,000 and 900,000? Too big a spread to be even meaningful. Even at a rate of 3700 per month (high month due to the US elections) there's no way its 400,000.

You have your opinion, I have mine. What do you think will happen if we leave? Will it just stop? Although it may be reprehensible to you that the US is doing a noble thing what it comes down to is you S-P's don't have the cojones to get the job done. Thankfully some in our country still do.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[billvon 2,433]

> It never ceases to amaze me how people assume they know more
>than people whose full time task is to figure this thing out.

I think that happens because those people were, in fact, dead wrong. Once you fail continuously for three years straight, people start to think perhaps that your next decision will be a poor one as well.

>Isn't it strange that this is Muslims killing Muslims? Why do they do that?

Same reason Christians have been killing Christians in Ireland for centuries now, I suppose.

>But I don't think leaving is the answer.

I agree. But the worst thing we could do is more of the same. We need to do something radically different - not just add 20% more troops, or 50% more speeches.

> And it was far worse in Iraq under Saddam.

Actually, the death rate was lower under Saddam.

> Leave now and we might as well just turn over our country and start
>figuring out which direction we should be kneeling.

Now that's unsupportable. We have an excellent military when they are used as intended (i.e. defending the US from its enemies.) If we dedicate them to that task, they will be unbeatable. They just aren't very good at imposing democracy on people who don't want it. (That's not a criticism; they are simply not trained for that mission.)

[Amazon 7]

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Although it may be reprehensible to you that the US is doing a noble thing what it comes down to is you S-P's don't have the cojones to get the job done. Thankfully some in our country still do.

So... when is your next tour of duty....over there??

[jcd11235 0]

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Fuzzy math...try 600,000 + 500,000.

I just reread:

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with other human rights organizations, The Documental Centre for Human Rights in Iraq has compiled documentation on over 600,000 civilian executions in Iraq. Human Rights Watch reports that in one operation alone, the Anfal, Saddam killed 100,000 Kurdish Iraqis. Another 500,000 are estimated to have died in Saddam's needless war with Iran.

It sure looks like 500 000 + 100 000 = 600 000.

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Even if it was only 500,000...we should just let it continue?

It is not as though we have improved the situation. People are dying at a faster rate now than before. It is clear that the path we are taking does not seem to be beneficial to Iraqis. It does not seem to be beneficial to Americans.

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Between 400,000 and 900,000? Too big a spread to be even meaningful. Even at a rate of 3700 per month (high month due to the US elections) there's no way its 400,000.

Sorry, you'll have to do better than that to discredit Johns Hopkins. Having a high confidence of your numbers means your spread is going to be large.

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You have your opinion, I have mine. What do you think will happen if we leave? Will it just stop? Although it may be reprehensible to you that the US is doing a noble thing what it comes down to is you S-P's don't have the cojones to get the job done. Thankfully some in our country still do.

It is not my opinion that our presence causing deaths at a higher rate than Saddam, it is a fact. It's not something we can vote on and come to a consensus. I for one see zero nobility in attacking a sovereign nation under false pretenses. Unfortunately, now that we've broken it, we have to find a solution.

Some are smart enough to understand that violence is rarely the best solution. Others seem to think it should be the first option tried.

Perhaps if we thought back a few decades to see how nation building worked out the last time we tried it in Iraq we might be able to make better decisions.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[tkhayes 140]

I don't remember us invading Iraq due to genocide, I thought it was WMD's?

Was I wrong - did I miss a speech somewhere? Was genocide of his own people brought up? I do not think so.

or at least it was only brought up to demonstrate the use of WMDs (against the Kurds)

spare me the arguement that he was a tyrant, and that genocide is a factor here. If we are so concerned about genocide, then we would have invaded Rwanda and the Sudan.

Baby Doc was a tyrant, Fidel Castro is a tyrant, North Korea's leaders are tyrants - around and around we go again - but we are doing nothing about any of them.

My original post stands - 3700 dead last month. 144 dead yesterday alone.

we are breaking all records out there and we are the ones that started it all. Nothing has been posted here that changes that or justifies it

TK

[airdvr 200]

Was I wrong - did I miss a speech somewhere?
You apparently missed alot of them.

..."Saddam Hussein must not be allowed to threaten his neighbors or the world with nuclear arms, poison gas or biological weapons," Clinton said. The Iraqi dictator has used these weapons against his neighbors and his own people, he said, and "left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will use these terrible weapons again." Bill Clinton

Albert Gore, 16 December 1998
"If you allow someone like Saddam Hussein to get nuclear weapons, ballistic missiles, chemical weapons, biological weapons, how many people is he going to kill with such weapons? He's already demonstrated a willingness to use these weapons. He poison-gassed his own people. He used poison gas and other weapons of mass destruction against his neighbors. This man has no compunction about killing lots and lots of people."

John Kerry, 23 February 1998
"Saddam Hussein has already used these weapons and has made it clear that he has the intent to continue to try, by virtue of his duplicity and secrecy, to continue to do so. That is a threat to the stability of the Middle East. It is a threat with respect to the potential of terrorist activities on a global basis. It is a threat even to regions near but not exactly in the Middle East."

"We know that he has stored away secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country." Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002.

Abu Nidal, one of the world's most infamous terrorists, moved to Baghdad late last year and obtained the protection of President Saddam Hussein, according to intelligence reports received by United States and Middle Eastern government officials."
New York Times

PBS television program "Frontline" in which he talked about a terrorist training camp in Iraq called Salman Pak. During this interview Khodada stated, "This camp is specialized in exporting terrorism to the whole world."

It goes on and on. How quickly you forget. No one with a brain was prepared to see if these predictions would come true. I think it's telling that there hasn't been a terrorist attack on US soil in over 5 years. When the roaches are on the run they can't do much damage. Yes they've done some damage around the world but not here.

Baby Doc was a tyrant, Fidel Castro is a tyrant, North Korea's leaders are tyrants - around and around we go again - but we are doing nothing about any of them.

There's no oil there TK. I personally have no problem with that. Only a naive person would want anyone to beleive that oil isn't a factor here. It's one of many factors. When you make a decision you don't base it on one factor alone.

It's fashionable to be against the war and you guys are wearing your Sunday best. Do any of you have children? How will you protect them? I was never prepared to sit back and wait until they're knocking at our door. We had a surprise visit in 2001...and 2000, and 1999...1998...1997. Did you think it would just stop?

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[jakee 1,259]

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Was I wrong - did I miss a speech somewhere?
You apparently missed alot of them.

So which of those those excerpts were a) by the administration and b) using genocide as a reason for war? If your answer is none you have completely missed TK's point.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,259]

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It's fashionable to be against the war and you guys are wearing your Sunday best. Do any of you have children? How will you protect them? I was never prepared to sit back and wait until they're knocking at our door. We had a surprise visit in 2001...and 2000, and 1999...1998...1997. Did you think it would just stop?

By turning Afghanistan into a peaceful and (relatively) unified nation and ridding it of Al Qaeda I do believe we would have been protecting the US and Europe. but we decided to tread water there while we focused on turning Iraq into the biggest terrorist breeding ground in the world. Now they're both fucked up. Do you think its going to stop now?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[airdvr 200]

I think that happens because those people were, in fact, dead wrong. Once you fail continuously for three years straight, people start to think perhaps that your next decision will be a poor one as well.

You have an intersesting viewpoint of failure. I fear you're a victim of what the media wants you to beleive. It's not hard to find successes in Iraq, you just won't see it on TV or in the papers.

We have an excellent military when they are used as intended (i.e. defending the US from its enemies.) If we dedicate them to that task, they will be unbeatable.

You honestly beleive we can retreat from the rest of the world and hide behind our own borders? It's been tried before. We've been under attack all around the globe for 20 years or more. The military is dedicated to the task of defending the US from it's enemies and they're performing that task right now.

They just aren't very good at imposing democracy on people who don't want it.

Please...is that what you think we're doing?

But the worst thing we could do is more of the same. We need to do something radically different

Agreed. We've been doing the same thing for 20 years now and look what it's gotten us. I liked your idea of moving everyone into Bagdad. I've never understood how this could work as long as the borders remained wide open. I know we have to try something different. I've felt that for a year now.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[freethefly 6]

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Another 500,000 are estimated to have died in Saddam's needless war with Iran.

The US supported Saddam in this war. In fact, the US provided Iranian troop positions. Fact, Saddam was an ally of the US and much of his bio and chemical weapons came from the US. The US had a blind eye when it came to anything he did for years. The US government is just as guilty when it speaks of the atrocities commited by Saddam. Particularly when it comes to the chemicals used on the Iranian troops.
I know that someone is going to scream "CITE". Look it up yourself as I have provided the info in the past.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[kallend 1,647]

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You have an intersesting viewpoint of failure. I fear you're a victim of what the media wants you to beleive. It's not hard to find successes in Iraq, you just won't see it on TV or in the papers.

Mussolini made the trains run on time, so his regime was a success too, I suppose. Bush's Iraq campaign is a total failure and a huge waste of lives and money.

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You honestly beleive we can retreat from the rest of the world and hide behind our own borders? It's been tried before. We've been under attack all around the globe for 20 years or more. The military is dedicated to the task of defending the US from it's enemies and they're performing that task right now.

Maybe the solution to THAT problem is to make fewer enemies, not to make more and then have to spend more than the next 8 nations combined to protect ourselves from them.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.