Animal Cruelty

[freeflybella 0]

I never said anything about piece work (however I don't know of a single employer of assembly line work who would tolerate someone working under quota).

I never said those jobs are only for the uneducated. (I did imply that you won't find many college graduates in slaughterhouses.)

Meat fabricators do not make alot of money. I'm dying to know how you got this impression.

The employee handbook as a concept is fine, however we all know the "employee handbook" - no matter how many times it uses the word cloaca - is not all inclusive nor is it the issue. It's not unheard of that just because a company doesn't come right and SAY something that they are not in some way complicit.

Try to visit a farm and you'll be sent to one specifically chosen for effect. One where there are cows outside. Ask to visit a battery cage house or a veal barn and you won't. Companies like Tyson and Perdue and KFC have showcase farms that are not indicative of the majority of their suppliers.

Anyway, I'm not asking anyone to take my word for any of this. I'm hoping you do your own research. It's out there. It happens. Just because it isn't staring you in the face doesn't mean it's right, or nonexistent.

Once you see, if you can live with it - it's your choice.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[kelpdiver 2]

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Dalmations have characteristics that make them lousy family dogs

Not quite true. I had one for 15 very nice years. Best dog I ever had - BUT - you had better be willing to really spend a LOT of time working with them and getting them excercise. Mine used to run beside my bike and I had to run her about 5 miles every day or she would practically drive you nuts.

the same could be said for pits, rotts, and other 'problem' breeds. Crappy owners turn into crappy dogs (just as we have with parents and kids).

Dalmations don't have the same reputation as the others, but should not be brought home without considerable thought. Watching a Disney movie doesn't qualify.

[kelpdiver 2]

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That is merely an opinion.

A poor one, from my point of view. And I doubt you'd find that many animals that wouldn't choose the more pleasurable food item when given a choice

Assuming you're being serious--Animals do not kill & consume prey when they're full. They do not wait for a tastier prey to come along when they're hungry. They do not seek out the fattest or the thinnest but rather the weakest which is what they'll be able to catch.

You confident in these statements? Animals preparing for hibernation certainly consume more than they need in the sense of fullness. And there are many animals that kill for sport - sea lions love to rip the fins off mola molas and leave the fish to sink to the bottom where the starfish come to eat them.

Predators pick the best option that they can easily (safely) kill. Not the absolute weakest of any food item available to them.

Let's stop pretending that animals in nature have any nobility.

[sundevil777 94]

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the same could be said for pits, rotts, and other 'problem' breeds. Crappy owners turn into crappy dogs (just as we have with parents and kids).

Crappy owners can make a good dog bad, no doubt.

Different breeds are known for having certain traits. To say that all such bad dogs are due to bad owners ignores actual experience.

Herding dogs can have a natural instinct for that behavior, but we are to believe that other dogs don't have an instinctive tendency to be more agressive? I don't think so.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[PLFXpert 0]

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You confident in these statements?

Most definitely. You confident in numerous scientific studies (and what was actually in textbooks in my college "Wildlife Studies" course)?

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Animals preparing for hibernation certainly consume more than they need in the sense of fullness.

..to remain full for several months. OK; continue to consume more when you're full and then don't eat for a few months. I'm OK with that.

I refuted your original statement. 'Twas not I who originally made such a comparison.

And we are off topic; thus I will not be responding to such commentary and opinion in the future.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[micro 0]

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Okay, micro. I don't have statistics on that. But I'd have to say, "How would you feel if you were an ant living in the dz, and all of a sudden, some human comes from the sky and steps on you."

The flippancy of yoru comment is proven by that example.

as I said, it was just a joke... levity..

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[micro 0]

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As PLFXpert said, food is PRIMARILY for sustenance and only SECONDARILY for pleasure.

That is merely an opinion.

A poor one, from my point of view. And I doubt you'd find that many animals that wouldn't choose the more pleasurable food item when given a choice.

The sad reality is that there is not enough money or open space to produce all chicken, cattle, turkeys, etc in a manner that covers the free range method. Not for the world (or just America's) current level of meat consumption. Now triple the cost and people will eat less, but higher quality meat. That might be a great end result, but the path this new equalization would be messy. And we'd probably overfish to an even greater extent first.

With the attempts to show that plants feel pain too, it is any more moral to be eating them instead of dumb animals?

No, it's not merely an opinion, it's a fact. If you don't eat, you will die. Eating is primarily for sustenance. Even if you get no PLEASURE from it you still must eat or you will die. Ergo, it's primary function is for sustenance and it is only secondarily for pleasure. Thankfully, it is ALSO pleasurable so that we will WANT to keep on eating.

As for animals choosing more pleasurable food, that's a no brainer... of course a dog, for example, will choose a food that is more tasty to them if given a choice. That does noting to disprove my point. That having been said, look at cows... I have two in my pasture... they have several different species of grass, legumes, and weeds to choose from to eat. What do they go for time and time again? The species that is healthiest for them, that is highest in protein and nutrition, i.e., what provides the most sustenance. That is what is most "tasty" or pleasurable to them. Imagine that.

As for your point about not having enough money or enough space to produce livestock using the free range method... THAT is what I would call a poor opinion. Please attempt to back THIS up w/ facts. What I see in rural America (where I happen to live, BTW) is that 100s of thousands of acres of land is devoted to what... corn and soy beans that will be used for grain... grain to be fed to livestock that will be grown in feedlots in precisely this method that some of us here feel is not ethical. These acres could very easily, in just a few seasons, be turned to pasture for free range animals.

Granted, I readily admit there are other uses for these crops, but a very very large quantity go towards grain fed beef, chicken, turkey, etc. Know what? As far as beef goes, a grain fed diet is NOT NATURAL for beef. They are fed this for one reason... TASTE. For one thing, it decrees the omega 3 content in the beef, making it less healthy for us. Also, it increases the acidity of the rumen rendering it unable to properly break down the cellulose in grass and utilize the nutrients therein. Also, in purely grain fed cattle, you are much more likely to see digestive problems for which you'd have to treat w/ medications before bringing them to market, etc. While we give a little bit of grain to our cows, as a treat for training purposes, they are primarily grass fed which is so much more healthy for them. I've eaten purely grass fed beef... it's quite tasty.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[kelpdiver 2]

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That having been said, look at cows... I have two in my pasture... they have several different species of grass, legumes, and weeds to choose from to eat. What do they go for time and time again? The species that is healthiest for them, that is highest in protein and nutrition, i.e., what provides the most sustenance. That is what is most "tasty" or pleasurable to them. Imagine that.

happy coincidence?

Bears in Yosemite Valley don't do so well. Given a choice, they like our crap best. The smarter we get, the dumber we eat?

Micro - compare the food density of a corn field and a grass field. What do you think the ratio is? 20:1? That is how much more land you'd need to come up with. And considering how the Amazon is being clear cut to create more grazing land already, are we prepared to increase it?

You can get every sort of free range meat around here. The catch is you got to pay for it. It's not going to be $2 or $4/lb.

[PLFXpert 0]

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You can get every sort of free range meat around here. The catch is you got to pay for it. It's not going to be $2 or $4/lb.

And if one stops eating meat for each breakfast, lunch & dinner (ie: more than one needs for sustenance) then one might actually be saving money. Of course, I'll be the first to admit eating healthy is about twice as much money as not. Little Debbies and a sack of potatoes go for $1. Fresh vegetables & produces are far more expensive; especially when one goes for cherries or strawberries instead of an oatmeal creme pie.

Assuming one wants to continue their over indulgence of meat, one must ask themselves: Would I rather know that an animal suffered unnecessarily for this meat which is $2-$4/lb or would I rather purchase the pricier (and likely better tasting & healthier) option?

Not to mention sometimes doing the right thing requires a little sacrifice. I would guess many here are not so selfish they would not be willing to give up something else on their grocery list if they're on a tight budget and would prefer to opt for the more humane meat choice.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[Royd 0]

EVERY SINGLE ONE of them will resist him. Minute after minute, day after day, week after week.

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that sounds like my job as a program manager - but you don't see me jumping on the engineers, scientists, and their direct managers just to see their intestines pop out

that would be wrong. yes, very, very wrong indeed

Wouldn't you feel better at the end of the day?

[Steel 0]

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but we are to believe that other dogs don't have an instinctive tendency to be more agressive? I don't think so.

Actually its true that some breeds tend to be more aggressive, just as some tend to like swimming in water more. Funny thing is though that people who know better and use real statistics to make up their mind are making different statements on the matter than the sensationalists reading a newspaper.

More aggressive breeds are chows, Old English Sheepdogs Llasa Apso, Rottweilers, Chihuahuas Poodles Dashhunds. Notice Pittbulls have not been named. Its only the sensationalist that don't know any better that make ignorant statments against pittbulls. Here is a source to help educate http://www.dogobedienceadvice.com/which_dog_breeds_are_most_aggressive.php

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[lawrocket 3]

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Okay, micro. I don't have statistics on that. But I'd have to say, "How would you feel if you were an ant living in the dz, and all of a sudden, some human comes from the sky and steps on you."

The flippancy of yoru comment is proven by that example.

as I said, it was just a joke... levity..

And mine was a joke, too.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Steel 0]

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but we are to believe that other dogs don't have an instinctive tendency to be more agressive? I don't think so.

In case you thought that other website was biased here are the statistics 2004 for dog breeds with cases of dogs being dumped for agressiveness

The 10 breeds most dumped due to aggression* are:
1. Maltese
2. Australian Cattle Dog
3. Fox Terrier
4. Alaskan Malamute
5. Rottweiler
6. Akita
7. Australian Silky Terrier
8. Old English Sheepdog
9. German Shepherd
10. Jack Russell Terrier

http://www.burkesbackyard.com.au/2004/archives/2004/roadtests/others/dog_dumpage

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[opurt 0]

Outstanding post. I am going to look for the 'Certified Humane' label from here on out. I found the store locator to be very helpful.

I am quite the omnivore. A filet mignon, a whole roast chicken or turkey, and I am excited on seemingly a brainstem level of response.

On the other hand, I am quite aware that the meat came from a sentient creature. One that felt pain, pleasure, fear, and a host of other emotions.

I've not seen evidence that animals are capable of very much abstract thought however. The evidence I've seen indicates they do have rich emotional lives. But their ability to ponder their fate - to ponder death - is very limited. That seems to be mostly the arena of humans.

Raising these animals in a safe and comfortable environment, then killing them peacefully and painlessly is my goal for meat animals.

Certified Humane is a step in that direction. The next step is to make controlled atmosphere slaughter a standard for all animals. Controlled atmosphere putting the animals in a near 100% carbon dioxide chamber. The animals die quickly and painlessly.

I first saw a natural controlled atmosphere kill on a PBS show. A volcano near an African village had belched a giant cloud of carbon dioxide. Carbon dioxide is heavier than air so it settles into low lying areas. An invisible cloud settled over the village. This entire village was killed almost instantly. People sitting around dinner tables, slumped in their seats. People killed in place doing all the mundane activities of life. Without trauma.

That could be a great way to slaughter meat animals. If there were a certification for field raised and controlled atmosphere slaughtered, I think it would really take off.

[PLFXpert 0]

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Outstanding post.

Why, thank you.

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I am going to look for the 'Certified Humane' label from here on out.

Yey!

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I've not seen evidence that animals are capable of very much abstract thought however. The evidence I've seen indicates they do have rich emotional lives. But their ability to ponder their fate - to ponder death - is very limited. That seems to be mostly the arena of humans.

If by abstract thought you mean understanding a Picasso, I 100% agree. And I'm quite sure animals don't ponder death, so much as understand when they are in harm's way. Naturally a gazelle flees when it sees a tiger. It knows the tiger will harm/kill it. Its instinct is survival; it has a natural desire to survive.

Different animals do have different proven measures of intelligence. There's the obvious monkey. But, dogs are quite intelligent on the scale, by comparison to other animals as well. If dogs tasted like pork, would we eat them too? It's an interesting question b/c a pig has a proven equal or greater level of intelligence as a dog. But, pigs arguably are not as cute, require more maintenance as a pet and taste better. So we raise them on farms for slaughter rather than dogs.

That's a minor reason, but not even close to why pig is an animal I will never eat again (on purpose---I found out once there was bacon juice in my collared greens. I'd never have thought to ask if bacon was used, but lesson learned.) I will discuss pig treatment and slaughter at a later time; perhaps near Christmas when honey-baked hams are popular.

It's important I stick to one subject at a time to effecitively convey my message, provide adequate & credible resources and refute opposition.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[micro 0]

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Okay, micro. I don't have statistics on that. But I'd have to say, "How would you feel if you were an ant living in the dz, and all of a sudden, some human comes from the sky and steps on you."

The flippancy of yoru comment is proven by that example.

as I said, it was just a joke... levity..

And mine was a joke, too.

whoops... i misread. sorry.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[micro 0]

You can get every sort of free range meat around here. The catch is you got to pay for it. It's not going to be $2 or $4/lb.

But the more farmers who do it, the cheaper it's going to get.

And also, it isn't always about getting the absolute cheapest meat possible. Sometimes you really DO get what you pay for.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[Michele 1]

I met the sweetest dog yesterday at the bank. He was a dog in training. Happy dog, clear eyed, tail up and wagging, just a dear dog. Big. Came from a shelter, and is being trained for service assistance (not sure which, but not blind, I don't think...). Male, broad chested, smily dog faced floppy eared teddy bear.

Spoke to his owner for a bit. Apparently, this dog had been removed from it's original home because of conditions. Over the last year, this dog has been socialized extensively, and the owner let me put the dog through some commands...sit, stay, come, up, down, stay and wait...in the parking lot of the bank. The dog, despite his owner being there, was completely willing to follow my commands, and to get lovin from me. His one bad habit is when he wants lovin or when he's being congratulated on a "good job", he leans into the leader (the person running the commands), and sits on their feet. The dog even let me look inside his mouth (a very big trust thing for any animal). I even placed my forearm into his mouth, and all he did was try to get it out - no aggression and not a damned thing to concern me whatsoever.

A big, sloppy kisser, this giant, square shouldered, triangle headed pooch was one of the dearest dogs I've met in a while. And yes, he was a pit bull. A pit who'd been removed from his original home because of poor conditions. A pit who had ever reason to not trust people, and not believe that people were his friends and companions. But because of the owner he had, and the extensive socializing and re-conditioning, this dog just might make the cut to service for handicapped folk.

What a sweet dog...and a good success story. just thought I'd share yet another experience I have had with pits that wasn't a negative one...

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[kelpdiver 2]

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You can get every sort of free range meat around here. The catch is you got to pay for it. It's not going to be $2 or $4/lb.

But the more farmers who do it, the cheaper it's going to get.

sigh - we covered this, or tried to. It doesn't scale up.

[PLFXpert 0]

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It doesn't scale up.

You're wrong.

Where have you read this isn't possible, I'm curious?

I have not read his book, but I've read excerpts and such online and am intrigued with Michael Pollen, a professor at the University of California Berkeley, who wrote "The Omnivore’s Dilemma: A Natural History of Four Meals."

In an interview with him for "Greater Good" magazine Pollen says the following, which of course I'm quoting b/c it seems to coincide with my thoughts and readings exactly:

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There are a certain number of people who, when you apprise them of the complexities of these choices, throw up their hands and just turn off. They’re like, ‘It’s so complicated, I’m going to McDonalds.’ And it is and it isn’t complicated. If you put it in the starkest terms, there are good and bad choices. There are choices that are basically building a new food system, and there are many struts underneath that food system: humane, organic, pastured, etc. And you do have a lot of votes; you have three votes a day, at least. And even if you just cast one or two of them in an ethical way every day, you’ve made a contribution to building this alternative. And that’s not a small thing.

It’s not all or nothing. People shouldn’t feel because they can’t go whole hog, and make all their eating choices completely consistent with their personal affect, that they shouldn’t go at all. If you’re conscious, the odds are your instincts will then tell you what to do. If you just give it a little thought, eat with some more consciousness, I have enough confidence in human nature that you will then make choices that are better than the ones you make in ignorance. But you have to be informed.

In the excerpts I've read, he writes about the differences between "free-range" and "organic" and such and even some of the problems with such. Certainly there's still a long way to go, but a little improvement (ie: free-range, certified humane, etc) is better than none at all.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[kelpdiver 2]

stay on topic- the question is can free range meat be produced at a cost remotely close to the slaughterhouse rates.

How could you? Land is expensive. And in short supply. The available free range meat to the Bay Area comes primarily from grazings on land trusts like Point Reyes where development is expllicitly forbidden. But there's not a lot of that sort of land around.

[freeflybella 0]

You can't just swap one out for the other. Nothing in life works that way.

-Eliminate factory farming
-Restrict all animal farming to pastured, organic, non-GMOd, humane practices
-Significantly reduce the demand for store bought meat and animal products
-Then, increase land for organic grain and vegetable crops (not to be fed to animals but to people)

Ultimately it's healthier (and better tasting) for everyone.

We're talking about our food supply. And ultimately our health and the health of our children.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[PLFXpert 0]

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stay on topic- the question is can free range meat be produced at a cost remotely close to the slaughterhouse rates.

I was on topic, thankquevurymuch.

The answer is yes to "remotely close" (meaning it will likely be more expensive, but we're talking a couple dollars, not 10s & 20s/lb difference here) and is not even close to as simple as "land being expensive and in short supply thus the whole idea is a wash". I suppose I am more referring to "certified humane" than only free-range as free-range might still be fed processed foods and grains of which are not natural to their diet.

I don't know of a "simple" solution to any of the world's major issues. But there are solutions that take time & effort and usually sacrifice in the interum; sacrifices that are difficult for some and cost money and thus major change isn't too often made. And it would probably take me Sangiro's entire bandwidth citing more than 100 credible sources to explain the process from beginning to end effectively.

If you would like me to concede it might/likely will cost more, I already have numerous times. And that has never been my point; thus you are off topic. (teasing).

What is the major foreseeable problem you have anyways with the cost of meat increasing by going certified humane? Perhaps that will be easier to discuss since cost seems to the number one priority to you.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[jumpinfarmer 0]

I have a simple question to everyone who says animals should be raised organicly. Are you organic? Not do you just eat organic food but in every other part of your life.

What I'm saying is if you get sick or have an infection do you go to the doctor and then do you take any medication? If you do you are a hypocrite plain and simple. Why should medications be all right for humans and not for animal health?

[kelpdiver 2]

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What is the major foreseeable problem you have anyways with the cost of meat increasing by going certified humane? Perhaps that will be easier to discuss since cost seems to the number one priority to you.

actually, for me, the number one priority is taste. Bring on the foie grae. Second is minimizing the quantity of inorganic compounds in the meat. A distant 3rd is cost.

But I'm not so selfish to only think of myself. Save that I'd hate to see the complete exhaustion of fish stocks that your new nirvana would cause.