Animal Cruelty

[lawrocket 3]

My opinion of a "delicacy" is that slick marketing was created to turn something so vile and disgusting that nobody would eat it into a "delicacy" to get people to think, "Hmmm. Sure, it's rattlesnake gall bladder, which seems gross. But it's called a 'delicacy,' which means that you must be sophisticated to enjoy it. I will prove I am sophisticated."

It seems fairly intuitive that an animal under stress will not do well physically, which affects the quality of the meat. I suppose that there are exceptions to this, such as foie gras, where the product of the disease is what is sought after, the "delicacy."

So, in that case, I will admit that, yes, though I have never purchased foie gras, I would purchase it. However, I haven't purchased it before because my second priority is price - and foie gras IS a luxury item.

Plenty of things can be viewed as cruel. There are the obvious choices, like veal and foie gras. There are the other obvious but lesser known choices, such as shark fin (the harvesting of this is horrible). There are also marginal ones where there is plenty of room for argument, such as the fishing, transporting and marketing of crab and lobster.

I agree that food is for sustenance. I also agree that we humans looks for a little more. It's like parachutes were designed to transport people and equipment to the ground, only people have concluded that they need more - thus, jumpin gout of planes for nothing more than the hell of it.

Thus, I enjoy lots of different foods (though my wife ardently disagrees with this - I just call it my discriminating palate). I don't NEED veal, which is why I haven't eaten it in so long. But I will admit - it sounds really good right now. Sure, it may seem bad, but I gotta be honest.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[micro 0]

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I agree that food is for sustenance. I also agree that we humans looks for a little more. It's like parachutes were designed to transport people and equipment to the ground, only people have concluded that they need more - thus, jumpin gout of planes for nothing more than the hell of it.

just for levities sake...

how many animals were tortured and killed in the making of our canopies?

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[Andy9o8 0]

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I agree that food is for sustenance. I also agree that we humans looks for a little more. It's like parachutes were designed to transport people and equipment to the ground, only people have concluded that they need more - thus, jumpin gout of planes for nothing more than the hell of it.

just for levities sake...

how many animals were tortured and killed in the making of our canopies?

They only switched to nylon from silk to put an end to the abuse of silkworms.

[lawrocket 3]

Okay, micro. I don't have statistics on that. But I'd have to say, "How would you feel if you were an ant living in the dz, and all of a sudden, some human comes from the sky and steps on you."

The flippancy of yoru comment is proven by that example.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[billvon 2,463]

>They only switched to nylon from silk to put an end to the abuse of silkworms.

Oh, so you care about silkworms, but not nyworms? That's racist, or something.

[lawrocket 3]

Silkworms are cute and cuddly, and not violent, abused, manmade abominations.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[freeflybella 0]

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Take out the one person who was talking, and the two people who were using excessive force and you have a company who keeps, and slaughters turkeys. Putting them in cages , then on hooks, then in a cold water rinse and then cutting the necks is a common method and it is less painful then cutting their necks without the cold bath. Im not so much concerned that a few employees did that, it should be expected in all walks of life... what I am concerned about is what Butterball did once they found out because I do not condone the actions but I will not hold the company responisble for actions of employees if they did not know what was happening.... now they do, I bet those people depicted in the video are without jobs now.

Maybe those guys are out of jobs. Maybe not.

In any case, the whole situation is a recipe for disaster.

Take a highschool (or not) educated guy, put him in a dark, foul smelling enclosure with bleating and clucking animals and tell him his paycheck depends on how many of those animals he can corral and slaughter.

Add to that - that all living creatures have a will to live (or an instinct to survive) - which means EVERY SINGLE ONE of them will resist him. Minute after minute, day after day, week after week.

I absolutely believe that those animals pay for that frustration.

The reason we don't see more of it is because factory farms will NOT allow visitors. Ever. It takes a very long effort of undercover work to get the video you see.

To me, that is COMPLICITY on the part of the company.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[rehmwa 2]

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EVERY SINGLE ONE of them will resist him. Minute after minute, day after day, week after week.

that sounds like my job as a program manager - but you don't see me jumping on the engineers, scientists, and their direct managers just to see their intestines pop out

that would be wrong. yes, very, very wrong indeed

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[freeflybella 0]

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We can't forget that these animals are LIVING things...

...neither am i committing the falacy that just b/c we have "dominion" over them can we do w/ them whatever the hell we feel like doing...

This bears repeating.

As compassionate loving people, whether you eat meat or not, it's a shame that we can turn a blind eye to such widespread degradation and torture in the name of greed and gluttony.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[freeflybella 0]

Like you wouldn't if you thought you could get away with it...

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[lawrocket 3]

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In any case, the whole situation is a recipe for disaster.

Take a highschool (or not) educated guy, put him in a dark, foul smelling enclosure with bleating and clucking animals and tell him his paycheck depends on how many of those animals he can corral and slaughter.

It's a job I couldn't do. But it's something that needs to be done. It's gotta suck working at a slaughterhouse, but it's a job. His job is to kill animals. The quicker and easier he can do it, the better. Which means that spending time torturing the animals is not in his or the company's best interest.

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Add to that - that all living creatures have a will to live (or an instinct to survive) - which means EVERY SINGLE ONE of them will resist him. Minute after minute, day after day, week after week.

I absolutely believe that those animals pay for that frustration.

It can't be argued that the animals don't feel stressed out with that process. It's best just to make it as short and painless as possible. I don't think the poor guy working the slaughterhouse takes it out on all chickens. And taking out on them would, to me, be accomplished my more quickly and painlessly killing the birds.

Then again, I never underestimate the cruelty of humans.

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The reason we don't see more of it is because factory farms will NOT allow visitors. Ever. It takes a very long effort of undercover work to get the video you see.

If I received a request to tour a slaughterhouse, I would deny it on the assumption that the person who would want to tour a slaughterhouse is a sick fuck. Not complicity.

Coroners don't often grant tours to people seeking to witness autopsies being performed. Odds are, if someone requests it, he or she is a sick fuck.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[freeflybella 0]

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But it's something that needs to be done.

No it absolutely does not.

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Then again, I never underestimate the cruelty of humans.

Unfortunately I agree.

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If I received a request to tour a slaughterhouse, I would deny it on the assumption that the person who would want to tour a slaughterhouse is a sick fuck. Not complicity.

Nope, I wasn't even talking about the slaughterhouses. I'm talking about the "farms". Where the animals 'live'. You can't tour those. They won't let you see how the animals live.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[rehmwa 2]

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Like you wouldn't if you thought you could get away with it...

Engineers and scientists are not for sustenance -

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[lisamariewillbe 1]

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Take a highschool (or not) educated guy, put him in a dark, foul smelling enclosure with bleating and clucking animals and tell him his paycheck depends on how many of those animals he can corral and slaughter.

Ummm they arent paid by piece work, they dont get 5 cents per turkey they hook. Oh and btw those jobs arent always easy to come by, its not just for uneducated people. They pay alot of money to those people to do that job.

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Add to that - that all living creatures have a will to live (or an instinct to survive) - which means EVERY SINGLE ONE of them will resist him. Minute after minute, day after day, week after week.

Are you sure about that? They do not know they are about to die... they are not resisting death, they are resisting being handled. Any animal being picked up, if not used to humans will resist. The ways to hold them are generally what is best for their body as to not cause them discomfort.... Im learning now how to handle certain animals and was scared with how to hold chickens cause I thought it would hurt them, and goats, and pigs, However, its proven that it is the least painful way for the animal and also the best way to protect the person handling.

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I absolutely believe that those animals pay for that frustration.

If those workers are fustrated, it is not because of how much they make, they are well taken care of in regards to money. The animals that paid in the way described in that video were treated poorly but it is only butterballs fault if they knew about it and maintained such persons employment. Once again, I am sure the employee handbook does not state they can beat the intestines out of the cloaca....

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The reason we don't see more of it is because factory farms will NOT allow visitors. Ever. It takes a very long effort of undercover work to get the video you see.

Thats not true. Wheres your basis for this statement?

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[kelpdiver 2]

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As PLFXpert said, food is PRIMARILY for sustenance and only SECONDARILY for pleasure.

That is merely an opinion.

A poor one, from my point of view. And I doubt you'd find that many animals that wouldn't choose the more pleasurable food item when given a choice.

The sad reality is that there is not enough money or open space to produce all chicken, cattle, turkeys, etc in a manner that covers the free range method. Not for the world (or just America's) current level of meat consumption. Now triple the cost and people will eat less, but higher quality meat. That might be a great end result, but the path this new equalization would be messy. And we'd probably overfish to an even greater extent first.

With the attempts to show that plants feel pain too, it is any more moral to be eating them instead of dumb animals?

[Butters 0]

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Like you wouldn't if you thought you could get away with it...

Engineers and scientists are not for sustenance -

This is only because you are not a cannibal!

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[lawrocket 3]

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I'm talking about the "farms". Where the animals 'live'. You can't tour those. They won't let you see how the animals live.

I see them and smell them all the time. I live in Fresno, agriculture capital of the world. I can see the cows from the streets, highways, etc. In the odd event you cannot tell that there is a cow farm at a place just by the smell, you can tell from the viible mounds covered with tire impregnated tarps (the tires keep the tarps weighted down). I can see the feed lines, etc.

I know the environmental problems that come with cow farms, too, like effluent management, etc.

Tour them? Heck. Why. I can see them easily.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Tour them? Heck. Why. I can see them easily.

There's that huge one right off the edge of I-5. Millions see and smell that one, which looks to be one of the largest around.

[PLFXpert 0]

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Plenty of things can be viewed as cruel. There are the obvious choices, like veal and foie gras. There are the other obvious but lesser known choices, such as shark fin (the harvesting of this is horrible). There are also marginal ones where there is plenty of room for argument, such as the fishing, transporting and marketing of crab and lobster.

I'm happy you're aware of finning and perhaps that will be another installment.

Certainly with the roomier non-obvious choices you've mentioned even I am up in the air on in some cases. I LOVE crab. I allow myself it once/year and certainly make sure it does NOT come from Canada. Canadian fisherman often also participate in seal-hunting b/c of the vast # of seals in the northern waters (whom eat large quantities of fish that fisherman would rather understandably catch themselves).

Excerpt from Wikipedia:

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The CVMA admits that 87% of the hunters they observed "failed to palpate the skull or check for the corneal reflex before proceeding to hook or bleed the seal or go to another seal." This is a violation of Canada's sealing regulations.

A study of the 2001 Canadian seal hunt conducted by five independent veterinarians came to the conclusion that although the hakapik, when properly used, is humane, many hunters were not using the hakapik properly. This was leading to "considerable and unacceptable suffering". In 17% of the cases they observed there were no detectable lesions of the skull whatsoever. In numerous other cases, the seals had to be struck multiple times before they were considered "unconscious".[26]

Contrary to how the report is sometimes interpreted,[27] however, it does not indicate that the seals were skinned alive. The still-conscious animals had been bled out before skinning.

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I agree that food is for sustenance. I also agree that we humans looks for a little more.

It's interesting that b/c humans look for more, we have obesity and eating disorders. If humans simply learned to disassociate food with pleasure (as we were meant to) we wouldn't have these problems (nor would humans need meat three times/day which leads to more demand which leads to more likelihood of animal cruelty). But that's another argument altogether and certainly not one I'd get into on the basis that there's no way that will happen. I mean, I myself have tried to no avail. But, I'm far more successful than most.

But comparing people "wanting more" out of their food and parachuting is not a very good analagy; and I would even say a fallacy, Private Law.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[PLFXpert 0]

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I am sure the employee handbook does not state they can beat the intestines out of the cloaca....

I would bet money you are 100% correct.

Imagine the liability of having such.

Again.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[PLFXpert 0]

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That is merely an opinion.

A poor one, from my point of view. And I doubt you'd find that many animals that wouldn't choose the more pleasurable food item when given a choice

Assuming you're being serious--Animals do not kill & consume prey when they're full. They do not wait for a tastier prey to come along when they're hungry. They do not seek out the fattest or the thinnest but rather the weakest which is what they'll be able to catch.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[PLFXpert 0]

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The sad reality is that there is not enough money or open space to produce all chicken, cattle, turkeys, etc in a manner that covers the free range method. Not for the world (or just America's) current level of meat consumption.

Current level of meat consumption; ie: bacon & sausage for breakfast, hamburger or turkey sandwich for lunch and a chicken or steak dinner.

Not to mention the thousands of pounds of meat that goes to waste each year b/c it is produced but not purchased & consumed before expiration.

There IS enough money and there IS enough space and there's even enough food to feed all the world's hungry but I'm sure that's quite impossible, too?

I'm not a defeatist by nature. If I care, I find that I'll always discover a way.
In fact, I'm kinda known for always finding a way to get what I want.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[EricTheRed 0]

Off topic responce to:

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Dalmations have characteristics that make them lousy family dogs

Not quite true. I had one for 15 very nice years. Best dog I ever had - BUT - you had better be willing to really spend a LOT of time working with them and getting them excercise. Mine used to run beside my bike and I had to run her about 5 miles every day or she would practically drive you nuts.

She was the smartest, most loyal dog I ever had and was absolutely great with kids.

Only dog I ever knew that would actually climb trees.

illegible usually

[PLFXpert 0]

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My opinion of a "delicacy" is that slick marketing was created to turn something so vile and disgusting that nobody would eat it into a "delicacy" to get people to think, "Hmmm. Sure, it's rattlesnake gall bladder, which seems gross. But it's called a 'delicacy,' which means that you must be sophisticated to enjoy it. I will prove I am sophisticated."

In your eyes I MUST be a "royal snob" then. (But, my laugh is real b/c the way you said that is so on the wavelength of my sarcastic humor.)

I LOVE escargot and caviar. I grew up eating those and others on a regular-enough basis (once every couple months or so) and still enjoy them today.

I will use beer as an analogy. As I child I thought beer tasted "vile & disgusting" yet my father always had it in the cooler on road trips and in the fridge at home and I was raised in a household where drinking (as long as done in moderation) was the norm, not the exception. Suddenly I didn't mind the taste of beer anymore and even grew to enjoy it.
Some things are an acquired taste which many acquire through their upbringing or company they keep or even entertain. Unfortunately those raised as such never know (or have reason to research) how some delicacies end up on their plate.

Edit: Oh P.S.--My father grew up in a very small country town on a farm and hates all of the delicacies to which I became accustomed to. For him (and thus me) we had them due to the company he had to entertain professionally.

Same goes for what goes on behind the scenes at many commercial farms. Some people who might or might not care ordinarily have no reason to bother doing the research. And ignorance is bliss afterall so some even refuse to do such knowingly. The later can choose not to open a thread titled "Animal Cruelty". The former might learn something and buy "certified humane" this year instead. If just one person makes that switch, my thread is a success.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[sundevil777 94]

...rattlesnake gall bladder..

That makes me think of the Life of Brian, where he's selling snacks in the coliseum...Jaguar's earlobes, wolf nipple chips, Tuscany fried bats, ocelot's noses, get them while they're hot, they're lovely.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am