"Bodies" Exhibition & Ethics in Art

[ShefBoiRD 0]

When I die, my corpse becomes garbage. Don't waste a bunch on a big coffin, etc. BECAUSE I WONT BE THERE. If someone wants to do a memorial/celebration of life or whatever for me I would most humbly feel very honored, AND I WOULD BE THERE. My soul/spirit/consciousness or whatever you wish to call it will not be present in the soon to be rotten meat wormfood that used to be the shell in which I lived. Wanna remember me? make a necklace outta my teeth. Better yet, plastinate me with my rig on & my main deployed just beginning to flare. Or even biffin' one in. That'd make for some humorous artistic expression. Feel free to placard the exhibit of my corpse with EXACTLY who I was. The remembrance makes for a small measure of immortality. I think it would be cool to be a plasticPLFman. The body is an amazing thing, the incredible intricacy of all of it's systems is astounding. It is unfortunate that so many people make judgement of others merely upon their outer appearance, their shell - the skin that is merely one organ of many. People are NOT their bodies, they are the consciousness within. It is good that those in the medical profession are not "grossed out", else how could they learn their craft to repair the rest of us? Would I wish my grandmother plastinated? Well, no, only because that is not something she would choose. Would I go to see her in an exhibit if she were plastinated? I do not think so, but for different reasons - I WOULD applaud her contribution to science. I was recently in Atlanta on business in April/May where the Bodies Exhibit was. I deeply regret not having been able to visit the exhibit (Due only to my time contraints). I absolutely believe that one should be able to choose how to have their corpse disposed of or preserved. If one simply states, "donate my body to science" - I think that really that means "donate my body to science to do with however you see fit" unless specified otherwise. I'd be happy to be turned into "art", but I would specifiy that as my desire. Is the recent pope, displayed for viewing after death in all his finery offensive? Is the Mona Lisa offensive? Are artistic representations of the nude female form (including those with chopped off arms) offensive? The human body is a beautiful thing which is why so much art has been devoted to it throughout the centuries. This exhibit is merely the inside of them. Kinda like when you lift the hood on your car. My understanding of these exhibits (which I've not yet been to) is that the dead flesh is not presented in a manner that would necessarily be demeaning or cruel to said flesh were it alive - (I think there is one posed throwing a baseball). I think these plastinations are flattering anatomical views of life, that could not be displayed of the living..

My 2¢, sorry if I rambled.

"If you'd not be forgotten, before you are rotten, write that which is worth reading, or do that which is worth writing about" - (I think that's) Benjamin Franklin

Strafing field mice, twice an hour.

[billvon 2,435]

I saw it and thought it was very well done. I've seen human dissections before, but I've never seen the inside of a horse, which I found fascinating. (I'd never considered how big a horse's cecum really was.) And the human dissections there were far more illustrative than anything I've seen on cadavers.

I saw a lot of kids at the exhibit, from ages 12 on up. Not sure if I would take a 12 year old there, but the older teens were fascinated. I think many kids think people are solid inside, like a potato. The reality is so much more interesting than that. And the exhibits showing diseased hearts, lung cancers, bowel cancers and fat distribution in obese people might just convince some of them that smoking might be a bad idea, or the two Big Macs a day might not be the hot ticket.

Listening to the people there talk about the exhibits was interesting as well. No one I heard was grossed out or offended, and it sounded like some people were really learning.

[Guest]

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I went to see it in London. Far from being morbid I found it fascinating. There was no smell as the bodies are plasticinated. From a anatomical perspective the exhibits were very interesting. The funniest thing was that in the comments book underneath lots of pretentious comments on the exhibition someone had simply written...

I see dead people.


I would recommend this exhibition to anyone execpt the recently bereaved and women who've had abortions. As for disrespectful to the dead I disagree, unlike some other exhibitions Dr Gunter Von Hagen only uses the bodies of volunteers of which there are hundreds.

There is some question about where the bodies came from (please see cover story, Discovery Magazine February 2006).

It appears that at least some of them were political prisoners from China.

In other words, they weren't the altruistic volunteers that you think they were. There have been some protests of the part of Amnesty Interational-type organizations trying vainly to draw attention to this.

The whole thing is morbidly sick and twisted, and it's the ultimate expression of secular humanism to date: people so obsessed with humanity that it's been lacquered up and put into a traveling freak show.

So it isn't surprising that the "artists" had such a hard time finding "volunteers" that they got them from a communist police state. Now, even in death, they aren't free. Please consider that when you view the exhibit.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Skyrad 0]

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I went to see it in London. Far from being morbid I found it fascinating. There was no smell as the bodies are plasticinated. From a anatomical perspective the exhibits were very interesting. The funniest thing was that in the comments book underneath lots of pretentious comments on the exhibition someone had simply written...

I see dead people.


I would recommend this exhibition to anyone execpt the recently bereaved and women who've had abortions. As for disrespectful to the dead I disagree, unlike some other exhibitions Dr Gunter Von Hagen only uses the bodies of volunteers of which there are hundreds.

There is some question about where the bodies came from (please see cover story, Discovery Magazine February 2006).

It appears that at least some of them were political prisoners from China.

In other words, they weren't the altruistic volunteers that you think they were. There have been some protests of the part of Amnesty Interational-type organizations trying vainly to draw attention to this.

The whole thing is morbidly sick and twisted, and it's the ultimate expression of secular humanism to date: people so obsessed with humanity that it's been lacquered up and put into a traveling freak show.

So it isn't surprising that the "artists" had such a hard time finding "volunteers" that they got them from a communist police state. Now, even in death, they aren't free. Please consider that when you view the exhibit.

I've searched for the article but can not find it. Do you have a copy of the article? Also are you sure you are talking about the Bodyworlds exhibition or are you refering to Bodies exhibition of which the human rights issues are known and previously mentioned further up in this thread?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Guest]

I was referring to the latter.

However, my thoughts and feelings about this issue are the same irrespective of either the exhibits or their legitimacy or lack thereof.

I believe that this is the ultimate version thus far of what I think of as "Secular Voyeurism"; or rather, and kind of humanistic narcissism that expresses an almost neurotic obsession with the human body at the expense of everything else.

In other words, it's a kind of pornography, and is no better than sites like rotten.com that revel in the gruesome.

mh

edit to add: Discover Magazine front story, either Jan or Feb 2006. I've got a copy back in my quarters, and I'll provide more details tomorrow, but you should have no trouble finding it at a public library.

Corrected for parsing.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[masterblaster72 0]

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While this may be about the "Bodies" exhibition, I'll comment on the "BodyWorlds" that I saw here at the museum in Houston.

I wasn't overly offended by the exhibit, but I DO feel that the premise that it is a science exhibit is total crap. If the only reason for the exhibit was to show anatomy, it would be much less a spectacle. As it is, the bodies there are put into some poses that really made me ask if this guy is trying to make "shock art" under the guise of science in order to get it approved by the museums and the masses. Some of the bodies are flayed and mangled in ways that seem pretty tasteless to me. See the guy with his face pulled up like a witches hat and riding is spinal column like a broom. Also, I think I read while at the exhibit that the von Hagens guy is a dentist. It'd have a little less "artsy wannabe" feel to it if that weren't the case, IMO.

Not to mention that I've read articles in science mags that accuse the "artist" of buying bodies of executed Chinese prisoners. In retrospect, some of the bodies DID have Asian characteristics to them, even though the fake eyes were blue.

The exhibit is interesting, but it could be done with more taste. I'd probably find it just as fascinating if the "artistry" had been left out of it. The fact that it looked as if it was art undercover as science kinda took away from it.EDIT- He's a visiting prof at my alma mater's dentistry school... that's where I got that.

Good post -- it echoes my sentiments on the matter pretty much to a tee.

I would look at the exhibit completely differently if it didn't have that "artistic" aspect. That's what I find distasteful, not to mention the ethical issue of where the bodies come from.

If this were simply a scientific display of body parts from people who consented to having them displayed, I might consider seeing it.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[Nightingale 0]

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In other words, it's a kind of pornography, and is no better than sites like rotten.com that revel in the gruesome.

Have you seen BodyWorlds? There's nothing pornographic or voyeuristic about it. I'm guessing by your statements you haven't seen it and are just repeating what you've heard from others who haven't seen it. Like I said to the other poster... go see it. You might learn something, and at the very least, you'll know what you're talking about. Seeing individual photos can be very misleading. When the exhibit is taken as a whole, it's extremely obvious that it is intended to both educate and demonstrate the beauty and complexity that is the human body. Most people leave the exhibit with a renewed interest in the biology of the human body, as well as a sense of awe at the way everything comes together to make us work.

[masterblaster72 0]

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Would I wish my grandmother plastinated? Well, no, only because that is not something she would choose.

And in the "Bodies" exhibition, being on display is not something the subjects chose when they were alive. That is one of my fundamental problems with the "Bodies" (not Body Worlds) exhibition.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[DJL 232]

I think this is very interesting in a scientific sense but I can't begin to think of it as art.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[billvon 2,435]

>I think this is very interesting in a scientific sense but I can't begin
>to think of it as art.

I tend to agree. While it did take an artist's eye to render some of those structures both visible and understandable as to their original function, it's far more documentary than artistic.

[avenfoto 0]

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And in the "Bodies" exhibition, being on display is not something the subjects chose when they were alive

here.. read this..and toughen up a bit... when you donate your body to science, you dont get to choose for what purpose.. personally id rather be an exhibit than a crash test dummy, or an expeirement to determine the breaking point of human bone..

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=br_ss_hs/102-9019997-8487320?platform=gurupa&url=index%3Dblended&keywords=stiffs

go see the exhibit for yourself,open your mind. instead of relying on hearsay, and bitching on an internet forum

its pretty amazing really.. there was an entire circulatory system removed and suspended in gelatin.. (i bet that took forever)

and a whole room devoted entirely to fetal disorders and abberations, that i found particularly fascinating.

but you might wet your pants. dear god im offended. somebody save me,im weak. censor these people.

or you know, you couldjust not go

[masterblaster72 0]

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And in the "Bodies" exhibition, being on display is not something the subjects chose when they were alive

here.. read this..and toughen up a bit... when you donate your body to science, you dont get to choose for what purpose.. personally id rather be an exhibit than a crash test dummy, or an expeirement to determine the breaking point of human bone..

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=br_ss_hs/102-9019997-8487320?platform=gurupa&url=index%3Dblended&keywords=stiffs

go see the exhibit for yourself,open your mind. instead of relying on hearsay, and bitching on an internet forum

its pretty amazing really.. there was an entire circulatory system removed and suspended in gelatin.. (i bet that took forever)

and a whole room devoted entirely to fetal disorders and abberations, that i found particularly fascinating.

but you might wet your pants. dear god im offended. somebody save me,im weak. censor these people.

or you know, you couldjust not go

Pardon your tone.

I'm not bitching. I'm open to other points of view on the matter and expressing mine. If you're looking for an argument, I'm not going to play.

Have fun under your bridge, son.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[masterblaster72 0]

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>I think this is very interesting in a scientific sense but I can't begin
>to think of it as art.

I tend to agree. While it did take an artist's eye to render some of those structures both visible and understandable as to their original function, it's far more documentary than artistic.

But how about some of the pieces like this one I posted earlier -- you don't think this is an attempt at art? While I see possible documentary value in it, I get the idea that the carving up was done with aesthetic intentions.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[ShefBoiRD 0]

We could say it is atrocious and horrific about the idea that bodies in any of the exhibits were there without their owner's consent, etc. and we would be right to do so. Then we could do something else with them (such as burying) to preserve the dignity of their former existence. In doing so however, should we not also then forget all things learned from the hideous experiments of the nazi Dr. Mengele? It is unforgivable what was done to those poor people victimized by Mengele, yet some of what was done became valuable medical research. As long as it was done, why NOT have something good come from it. (The "good" is certainly no excuse for ever having done the evil in the first place.) If someone was specifically murdered to be turned into an art exhibit, then it is morally wrong to condone said murder by patronizing the exhibit. Doing so (attending the exhibit) may have scientific or educational value however. You and I both benefit from valuable medical information learned as a result of unspeakably torturous procedures regularly performed on animals. Does the end justify the means? Never. Will there ever be someone to attend this exhibit who is so wonderfilled at the intricacies of the human body they take up neurology as their career and become a life-saving brain surgeon? Perhaps. Regarding the exhibit, it is what it is. It's there, and I would go to see it.

Strafing field mice, twice an hour.

[rehmwa 2]

If you gave a dead body a sucker and then took it away just to get a picture of a dead body crying, then I don't know if I'd call it art, but I would walk away. Zombies are scary, even when they are crying.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[avenfoto 0]

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Pardon your tone

kiss my ass. read the book , and go to the exhibit, THEN form and opinion. that is the point im trying to make.

the only time i spen under bridges is on the cat walk, enroute to the exit point, thanks

[christelsabine 1]

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If you gave a dead body a sucker and then took it away just to get a picture of a dead body crying, then I don't know if I'd call it art, but I would walk away. Zombies are scary, even when they are crying.

There is nothing scary in that exhibition. I've been there twice. Nothing is lurid, no bloody details. Go there, watch it with open eyes and just realize, that all is simply HUMAN (even animals shown). In my eyes, it's art, if not to say fine arts.

It's surprising how many things we never learned in school and life and just see there - amazing!

Christel

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[avenfoto 0]

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If you gave a dead body a sucker and then took it away just to get a picture of a dead body crying, then I don't know if I'd call it art, but I would walk away. Zombies are scary, even when they are crying.

i read on the internet, that zombies smell bad, probably due to the formaldahyde that wasnt even used in the making of the zombie, and one of my friends saw a zombie once, and he didnt like it so i dont like zombies either.

unless im eating his brain. im offended. censor somebody quick.

[pirana 0]

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See the guy with his face pulled up like a witches hat and riding is spinal column like a broom.

OK, that is wierd.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[billvon 2,435]

>kiss my ass.

Your one warning.

[Rebecca 0]

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If you gave a dead body a sucker and then took it away just to get a picture of a dead body crying, then I don't know if I'd call it art, but I would walk away. Zombies are scary, even when they are crying.

you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk?

[kelel01 1]

Damnit, beat me to it. But we can't have identical back-to-back posts.

[Red_Skydiver 0]

I saw the exhibition a few years ago in London. it was excellent, very educational. The feotuses were particulary good, it opens your eyes to what is normally hidden from view and gives you a deeper understanding. I'd recommend it to anyone. I can't see anything wrong with it so long as it is licenced.

[Shotgun 1]

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>I think this is very interesting in a scientific sense but I can't begin
>to think of it as art.

I tend to agree. While it did take an artist's eye to render some of those structures both visible and understandable as to their original function, it's far more documentary than artistic.

Interesting... I thought that the exhibit was very artistic. But I also recall noticing that the more artistic displays were the ones that you didn't seem interested in looking at.

My impression is that it was a pretty equal mixture of science and art.

[rehmwa 2]

I was mocking another thread. Sorry you missed that and felt it necessary to be condescending.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants