Gee... I wonder if obesity is becoming a problem.

[livendive 8]

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Why do highschools make kids take calculus and physics, but not a nutrition class?

Because the 1-in-5000 kid who grows up and puts their math & science background to work will have a more important impact on society than the 1-in-1000 kid who will grow up and eat healthy?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[NWFlyer 2]

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6) Tax high fat food

What about high sugar food? And food that's high in simple carbs?

It's not as simple as fat = bad. In fact, there are those who believe that our society's obsession with lowfat foods as the "way to good health/lower weight" may have made the problem worse. I don't lose weight as quickly and effectively on a low-fat diet. I do much better on a no refined sugar/no simple carbs diet, where I worry more about portion control and the types of food that I eat than I do about fat.

Not so simple. But I suppose I understand the logic - it's the same approach we've used with cigarettes. I personally think if we're going to get the government involved we start with the massive subsidy of corn production... which leads to massive production of cheap high fructose corn syrup... which leads to the proliferation of cheap processed foods that are incredibly high in refined sugar.

[stallboy 0]

In my defence it was a brain dump, not a well researched list of options.

My point is there are things we could do....

One day, I'm gonna grow wings, a chemical reaction, hysterical and useless...

[NWFlyer 2]

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It starts with each individual making the decision to be accountable for how they choose to live.

The problem with obesity is but one byproduct of the fact that we don't, as a society, hold individuals accountable for their actions. I admire people who do take responsibility for their own actions, but unfortunately, we're valuing that less and less.

[mnealtx 0]

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which leads to the proliferation of cheap processed foods that are incredibly high in refined sugar.

Which leads to "insulin dumping" and insulin resistance, which leads to Syndrome X, which leads to..... et cetera, ad nauseum

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[NWFlyer 2]

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In my defence it was a brain dump, not a well researched list of options.

My point is there are things we could do....

Not disagreeing with you. Just pointing out that things that seem easy aren't always easy.

[stallboy 0]

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Not disagreeing with you. Just pointing out that things that seem easy aren't always easy.

Ok then. We all agree it's not easy... there are things we can do about the problem, but choose not to? It is not an insummountable problem, not easy granted, but not impossible either.

Gee a meeting of minds? an uneasy truce in Dropzone??? Ok then lets move onto an easy topic .... The Middle East anyone?

By the way, does that mean I'm not an asshole anymore?

One day, I'm gonna grow wings, a chemical reaction, hysterical and useless...

[wmw999 2,182]

I don't think that anyone disagrees that it's way too easy to eat poorly and not be active enough in the US. Just looking at sizes and Wal-mart should tell you that.

It's just that when one sees those people as the personification of what's "gone wrong with America" or "that which I'm too good to have happen" maybe, just maybe, one is no longer looking at the problem as a system problem, but instead as a manifestation of personal weakness.

Which it is in one sense, but when a whole society begins to show that, it's probably systemic rather than just a whole bunch of weak people being born.

"not tolerating it" means not tolerating people when it's someone who is too heavy, or unhealthy, or handicapped. "not tolerating it" means not tolerating the behavior when you're talking about smoking, drinking, or drugs. BIG difference.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[NWFlyer 2]

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but choose not to? It is not an insummountable problem, not easy granted, but not impossible either.

I sure hope that we as a society are not "choosing not to deal" with the problem. Seems to me every time I turn around there's an article, a study, a report on the rising obesity levels in the U.S. It's getting a lot of attention, and I think that there are efforts to address the issue.

Examples I can think of off the top of my head...

"Super Size Me" was one man's effort to expose issues, and he was able to effect a very small change (McDonalds got rid of some of its largest sizes).

Parents are starting to demand better choices in school cafeterias. Again, it's a little thing, but it sends a message.

Scientists and nutritionists are starting to challenge the conventional wisdom/advice about nutrition. The USDA's "food guide pyramid" was updated recently to reflect that new understanding.

Maybe, on an individual level, there are people who are "choosing not to deal with it." I think, like I've said, and like many other have said, that represents less a "choice" than a conscious or unconscious belief that there's no hope of changing. Or it's an overreaction to hatred and hostility, a sort of "fuck you" to the world.

[lawrocket 3]

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So what are your ideas for dealing with it on a societal level, other than "don't make obesity acceptable"?

This takes social enginerring by a government (which I despise), but if I were gonna do it, here's how I would - 1) do whatever is necessary to increase the odds that a child will go outside and play with others; 2) Do whatever possible to add to the ability of parents to supervise children outside of day care; and 3) Make short-term decisions have a positive effect on long-term health. Here are some:

1) Create changes in the tax structure to allow more families to have a stay-at-home parent to monitor the eating eating habits;
2) Charge a surtax on fast food, sodas and other "cheap sources of calories" to make cheap fast food a thing of the past;
3) Increase the price of video game cartridges to prevent 7 hours each day on the X-Box;
4) Create foot patrols to monitor neighborhoods, etc., so that children may play outside with less risk of abduction/accident/etc. - increase saftey, apearance and number of public parks;
5) Loosen child endangerment laws to encourage parents to allow kids to play outside;
6) Tort reform to reduce threat of liability to land owners and businesses that would otherwise allow children to play if there wasn't a fear of lawsuits;
7) Create a labor shortage of jobs necessitating physical labor, which would increase wages for these jobs and induce more teenagers to work them.

My personal thoughts would be to object mightily to these things - they go against my libertarian leanings. But I'm answering the question.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kelpdiver 2]

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2) Charge a surtax on fast food, sodas and other "cheap sources of calories" to make cheap fast food a thing of the past;
3) Increase the price of video game cartridges to prevent 7 hours each day on the X-Box;

yes, social engineering of the worst kind. The silly and ineffective kind.

Think of what a mess California's snack tax has been. No one can even explain which foods count, which ones don't. Ther e are only a few obviously bad foods. Beyond that, it gets back to the 100 extra calories a day problem I describe. Taxing and spending junk food money doesn't change the equation. And since this sort of money always goes to the general fund rather than to combat the specific issue (see Prop 98), it just increases the Sacramento largess.

Jack up the price of video games and you 1) encourage more piracy 2) reduce true revenues to California based companies like LucasArts, Sega, EA 3) have kids spending just as much time playing fewer games - for all the talk of their more limited attention spans, I've watched them play the same game for a weekend straight.

[NWFlyer 2]

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This takes social enginerring by a government (which I despise)

Why? I disagree that the government has to get involved (except to the extent that they need to reverse policies that are currently in place ... such as corn production subsidies; I'm sure there are more ... that already contribute to the problem).

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5) Loosen child endangerment laws to encourage parents to allow kids to play outside;

You're the lawyer and a parent; you're probably much closer to this issue than I am, but is this seriously a problem these days? If that's true, that's sad. I thought it was just an overprotective generation of parents. I didn't realize they were getting legal and regulatory support for their cause.

That's a tangent, though...

[kelpdiver 2]

More social engineering - you both sound like Barbara Boxer!

3) Ban the advertising of junk foods on kids TV programs
6) Tax high fat food

Same problems - vague definitions, more restraint on commerce with hopeful intentions as the only support. And little done to imrprove the problem.

Many suggestions involve parents spending more time with their kids - come on, parents are struggling to do that already. It's not because they wish to neglect their children, or don't value time with the rug rats.

Outside of improving activity availability, all these require Americans to change, and the status quo already proves that this won't work. Bush Sr. and Arnold are fairly effective leaders in the notions of living a fit life, but they're rare - Clinton was better known for McDonald's and Bush Jr., frequent crash reports aside, doesn't seem to promote in this area.

[stallboy 0]

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More social engineering - you both sound like Barbara Boxer!

3) Ban the advertising of junk foods on kids TV programs
6) Tax high fat food

Ok... we have excuses for two of the options...

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Many suggestions involve parents spending more time with their kids - come on, parents are struggling to do that already. It's not because they wish to neglect their children, or don't value time with the rug rats.

Oh come on you're not even trying here... are you really attempting to sweep away a whole set of suggestions with a wishy-washy back-hand comment like this... So just to be clear are you saying hand-on-heart you think parents of obese children are doing everything possible for their children ?


Oh by the way, isn't it your turn to be constructive now?

One day, I'm gonna grow wings, a chemical reaction, hysterical and useless...

[NWFlyer 2]

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Oh come on you're not even trying here... are you really attempting to sweep away a whole set of suggestions with a wishy-washy back-hand comment like this... So just to be clear are you saying hand-on-heart you think parents of obese children are doing everything possible for their children ?

I think sometimes they don't know the best way to help. I'll use my case in point. As I mentioned up above, my parents did a lot of the "right" things... and yet I still managed to make myself an overweight child, borderline obese teen, and obese adult.

I exhibited compulsive and addictive behavior at a very early age, though I didn't know it at the time. As soon as I was old enough to have some spending money here and there, I would buy my own stuff, and hide it from my parents. There was only healthy food in the house? Well, damn, I was going to get my sugar fix anyway. You'd be *amazed* at the creativity of a sugar addict.

I'm picking apart arguments here, because I really do, at times, want to throw up my hands and say "There's no solution!" I'm honestly not sure if there's a big, sweeping change that can be made. I do believe, though, that like a lot of problems that seem so big (no pun intended) as to be unsolvable, sometimes the best you can hope for is to chip away in little ways. I work in the health care industry; its problems as a business and as an industry are legion, but I've worked for organizations that are able to affect small, positive changes. Sometimes that's the best you can hope for. Make the changes on a smaller scale then see if you can make them happen on a bigger scale.

My way... is to educate people about the impact that refined sugar and simple carbs have on triggering addictive behavior. Anyone asks me "How'd you do it?" that's the first thing I mention ... the thing that enabled me to lose over 100 pounds was eliminating those things from my diet. Any attempt at cutting back, lowering portions, and controlling eating that doesn't include COMPLETE elimination of those items doesn't work for me.

So I don't so much seek to inspire as to educate on how sometimes, if you make changes that go against the "conventional wisdom" it can work for you. Maybe, just maybe, I can help people who struggle with compulsive overeating to learn more about the physical/chemical stuff that causes that behavior.

Little stuff. But at least I feel like I'm doing something instead of just sitting around going "Man, it sucks that so many people are obese." The one thing I don't do, though, is provide unsolicited advice. If someone has a weight issue but doesn't bring up the issue with me, I won't bring it up with them. Once they open the door, though, I'll walk right through it and share.

[lawrocket 3]

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5) Loosen child endangerment laws to encourage parents to allow kids to play outside;

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You're the lawyer and a parent; you're probably much closer to this issue than I am, but is this seriously a problem these days? If that's true, that's sad.

When was the last time you saw a swimming pool for public use that had a diving board? You dont' have them anymore because of the liability risks.

Kids want to swim and dive, etc. Loosen the rules to let them.

Let the kids play is the vacant lot. Do that by eliminating liability of the owner of the vacant lot if a kid gets hurt falling on a broken bottle.

That kind of thing...

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[NWFlyer 2]

I see where you're going... that makes more sense. I was thinking that you were saying parents were getting busted for child endangerment for letting their kids run around in the yard or in the neighborhood or at the local play field, that kind of stuff.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Oh come on you're not even trying here... are you really attempting to sweep away a whole set of suggestions with a wishy-washy back-hand comment like this... So just to be clear are you saying hand-on-heart you think parents of obese children are doing everything possible for their children ?

Oh by the way, isn't it your turn to be constructive now?

I said the problem was non trivial to solve, only pointed towards reinstalling PE in the schools as easy gains.

Your suggestions, outside of the socialist state type, would be effective to someone who wanted to make a change and was looking for advice. It would not be effective as national policy to solve the problem in general.

If you want more heavy handed governmental solutions - adopt France's 35 hr week, or make the traditional 40 the max here, no overtime. Or mandate 4 weeks of vacation. That will imrpove quality of life.

Ban HFCS, or stop the corn subsidies, as suggested by others. Maybe the growing use of ethanol as fuel can suck up this dangerous sweetener.

Eliminate parking lot sprowl and force people to walk further from the car. Jack up the registration taxes on additional vehicles in the household so they're more likely to bicycle about.

Shift to a national health plan, but charge double premiums for people more than 20% overweight (by a vald measure of body fat, not by BMI).

yep - there are lots of ways to beat the citizens with a stick. If we lived in China, we might even defend them, or at least expect it.

[stallboy 0]

I don't want heavy handed government.

Surely there is a half-way house between a government who doesn't give shit because they are getting massive tax revenues and party funding from big Fast-food pushers and a totalatarian state?

One day, I'm gonna grow wings, a chemical reaction, hysterical and useless...

[NWFlyer 2]

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I don't want heavy handed government.

Surely there is a half-way house between a government who doesn't give shit because they are getting massive tax revenues and party funding from big Fast-food pushers and a totalatarian state?

I think that's kind of where we are now, there are definitely things the US government does to try to address the issue, they just often balance it with things that make the problem worse:

On the one hand... you have USDA's food guide pyramid, and its recent revisions.
On the other hand... you have agricultural policy that subsidizes the production of corn & HFCS

On the one hand ... you have Medicare providing some coverage for weight loss surgery
On the other hand... I don't believe that Medicare, Medicaid, or any other government-sponsored health programs pay for other types of weight management programs to try to solve the problem before it gets to the point of needing WLS

On the one hand... you've got school lunch nutritional standards.
On the other hand... apparently ketchup in school lunches counts as a vegetable.

[Scoop 0]

My belief is its a personal thing. Each individual knows that what they eat in relation to how active they are can make a difference. If you were a mountain climber on an expedition you would need more intake than a person sat shuffling papers in an office all day. It really is simple as that, regardless of people with 'fat genes'. You cannot eat a healthy diet and stay active and still put on lots of body fat. People that say I only eat one meal a day and I still put on weight are lying. They might eat one meal a day, but they snack on all sorts of crap.

I am guilty of it too though, so Im not perfect. I like to induldge myself! Except I realise its because I'm being inactive or because I'm eating too much that I put on weight, like snacking whilst watching TV or something. But I alos know that when I discipline myself to get into my running routine again it r4eally drops off of me. Literally within a month. Also I find when you become more active and stop eating shit, its initially hard but you lose all the cravings for the stuff thats bad for you.

You dont need to spend millions, people already know this and they have a choice about their lifestyle and what they shovel in their mouths. Ever heard of evoultion? People that are severe cases die young. I believe its referred to nowadays as survival of the fittest.

[ACMESkydiver 0]

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When was the last time you saw a swimming pool for public use that had a diving board? You dont' have them anymore because of the liability risks.

Word.

Do you know that Kent school district no longer allows swings on the playgrounds? That's right. The district and almost every public park in Kent, Covington, and unincorporated have removed all playground swings due to liability.

And monkey bars, too.

It's getting just stupid...

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[stallboy 0]

I think we need to breakdown this problem into smaller chunks.

The obesity problem in my view is made up of the following groups

1) People who don't give a damn - These people are general speaking beyond help/don't want help, controversal perhaps, but unless we go down the totalatarian state and impose changes on them (which I don't think is right) they are unlikely to change.
2) People who refuse to accept the real reasons for their obesity - These people are in classic denial, education may help them, but their first battle is not weight, it is with the realization of why they are like they are.
3) People who want to lose weight but are not strong enough/don't know how to make changes to their lifestyle - This group probabily make up the vast majority of obese people and would benefit from support by friends and general ideas in changing their lifestyle - (It was this group most my original suggestions were aimed at).
4) People who want to lose weight and actually do it - These people actually don't need much in the way of help, it is encorougement and positive feedback that will help them continue to suceed.

This is why any single solution will not work, simply because it won't work for all groups.

Regards

Mike

One day, I'm gonna grow wings, a chemical reaction, hysterical and useless...

[RMURRAY 1]

I have recently changed my diet to no meat (of any kind), no dairy, no eggs. Next is to get off processed or refined foods. I have been meaning to do this for years but after watching a documentary on obesity, heart disease, how they raise animals these days etc made the change. I need to lose some weight but have not made the change to lose weight. Now when I see a grossly overweight person, I ask myself "I wonder if they share the same attitude" - of course the answer is NO.

rm

edit -- flame away, I don't care!

[shropshire 0]

5) People who would like to loose weight but cann't due to medical reasons - Yes they really do exist.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome