And now Buckley has come around

[billvon 2,426]

Well, it took three years, but conservatives are finally realizing that the Iraq war has failed miserably and has turned into a quagmire of epic proportions. William Buckley, one of the icons of the conservative movement in America, now acknowledges this - "One can't doubt that the American objective in Iraq has failed."

http://www.nationalreview.com/script/printpage.p?ref=/buckley/buckley.asp

I am looking forward to the more stalwart Bush supporters starting to weasel out of their earlier statements.

"Well, no one ever said he had WMD's for _sure._"

"Maybe they took them all out minutes before we invaded."

"Hey, Look here! Some democrats said he had WMD's! So they're wrong too; it's not Bush's fault."

"It's not our fault! It's those damn Iraqis."

"It's the democrats fault that we lost."

"At least Bush didn't get a blowjob!"

And we can argue here all we want. But the plain truth is that thousands of US servicemen are dying, and tens of thousands of Iraqis are dying, because our president screwed up. And it will never get fixed, because he will never, ever admit that he screwed up - and will keep plugging ahead with the same failed plans. About the only hope at this point is regime change, which (fortunately) is easier to do here.

[narcimund 0]

Quote

"At least Bush didn't get a blowjob!"

Do you think maybe that's the root of all our problems?

Quick, somebody get that man a blowjob!

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[rasmack 0]

Quote

Quick, somebody get that man a blowjob!

I am sorry. I have to say this. Can't resist:

Volunteering?

*Jumps into a hole in the ground and shuts the door*

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[tcnelson 1]

you're assuming, of course, that buckley is correct. oh wait, he must be; he's saying something that you agree with!

carry on.

"Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch
NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329

[narcimund 0]

Quote

Volunteering?

I'm not interested in THAT way, but if that's all it would take to end the non-wars and mass murders, surveillance society, disappearances, shredding of the constitution, international bullying, and general end-of-the-world stuff, I'd consider it a reasonable duty.

I might look around for somebody who's better at it than I am though. I mean, wouldn't you want him to have the best if all that was riding on it?

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[billvon 2,426]

>you're assuming, of course, that buckley is correct

When everyone on side A and half the people on side B agree on something, odds are that it's not a bit of partisan spin any more. And you would need extremely thick rose-colored glasses to call what's happening in Iraq now "success." "Hey, good news! That mosque was fully repaired before they blew it up again."

Or are we turning the corner again? Are the insurgents in their last throes again? Is this just an isolated incident of violence leading up to an election/holy day/handover of power? A 'last hurrah' if you will? Bush supporters may believe all that, but the story of the boy who cried wolf comes to mind. Eventually even the most brainwashed supporter is going to realize that the words stay the same and have nothing to do with what's actually happening.

[rasmack 0]

Quote

I might look around for somebody who's better at it than I am though. I mean, wouldn't you want him to have the best if all that was riding on it?

Your point is duly noted sir.

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[Muenkel 0]

Quote

Do you think maybe that's the root of all our problems?

Quick, somebody get that man a blowjob!

Are you assuming he has never had a blowjob. Perhaps he has received many....from his wife.

I know you meant your post in jest, but I just had to jump on it.

Chris

_________________________________________
Chris

[narcimund 0]

Quote

Perhaps he has received many....from his wife.

I can't believe an adult is trying to have this conversation with me...

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[Muenkel 0]

Quote

Perhaps he has received many....from his wife.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I can't believe an adult is trying to have this conversation with me...

Perhaps you did not read my 2nd sentence. Don't take everything so fucking seriously.

Chris

_________________________________________
Chris

[sundevil777 94]

So, maybe we should conclude that some nations in the middle east are not capable of, cannot be trusted to live in peace, internally or with the rest of the world.

We don't even know if it will work (long term) in Afghanistan, but even you supported that war.

I still think that SH had to go, nearly as urgently as the Taliban.

Buckley is always a good read. His interviews on TV were also quite illuminating. His style could put you to sleep, but he was thoughtful and asked the best questions.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[billvon 2,426]

>So, maybe we should conclude that some nations in the middle
>east are not capable of, cannot be trusted to live in peace,
>internally or with the rest of the world.

Well, that's patently not true. Iraq was at peace before our invasion. A militaristic, oppressive peace enforced by a brutal thug, but peace nonetheless. So clearly Iraqis _can_ live in peace.

>We don't even know if it will work (long term) in Afghanistan,
>but even you supported that war.

Yes. We should defend the USA from countries who attack us. A bit of an archaic way of thinking, I know, but that's what I think the US military should be for.

[sundevil777 94]

Quote

>We don't even know if it will work (long term) in Afghanistan,
>but even you supported that war.

Yes. We should defend the USA from countries who attack us. A bit of an archaic way of thinking, I know, but that's what I think the US military should be for.

I think that we should have joined the war against Germany before we were attacked. I think that is an important difference. I think the rest of Europe should have also, before they were attacked.

Also, he was constantly violating the terms of the '92 cease fire, including shooting at our planes quite often.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[narcimund 0]

Quote

you're assuming, of course, that buckley is correct. oh wait, he must be; he's saying something that you agree with!

Um, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that plainly obvious?

If you believe A is true and somebody else also thinks A is true, then you think they're correct.

That is elementary discourse, not nefarious partisanship.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Quote

Also, he was constantly violating the terms of the '92 cease fire, including shooting at our planes quite often.

Saddam was no angel and who knows what his long term plans were. GWB's actions have ensured that we will never need to worry about Saddam again. But what about all the others? GWB has created more terrorists than he's killed or captured. Also, of course Saddam would shoot at an invading armed forces. What would you do if a hostile military showed up in your country? Would you just sit back and do nothing? Not likely ...

GWB should do everyone a favor and get out now. Too many lives have been destroyed and too much money has been spent on something that most of the world didn't think was a good idea to begin with.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[sundevil777 94]

Quote

Also, of course Saddam would shoot at an invading armed forces. What would you do if a hostile military showed up in your country? Would you just sit back and do nothing? Not likely ...

He was shooting at our planes enforcing the no fly zones, long before 9/11 or our invasion of Iraq.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[TheAnvil 0]

A bit of advice, Bill - don't hold your breath on that one. If I held my breath waiting for leftists to tell me why their beloved icons in the House and Senate didn't care enough about the war they were voting to support to actually read the intelligence to which they had access, I'd be a very blue in the face short man, I assure you.

You don't have to look to GWB's stalwart supporters for statements about removing WMDs prior to our arrival. Simply listen to the words of one of Saddam's own generals - he recently wrote a book where he mentioned it. Not really covered by the networks, of course.

What do you think our current course of action should be? Withdraw, see civil war break out, and the Iranians move into the former nation of Iraq and gobble it up? Civil war might be inevitable, 'tis true. I would hope that Iranian control of Iraq is not, however. Denying that Iran would love to invade Iraq in its weakened state in the wake of a US withdrawal is sheer lunacy. How do you propose we deal with the current situation?

I have heard nobody - and I do mean nobody - on the left offer an alternative plan that's remotely feasible. Only 'BUSH SCREWED UP! LOOKY LOOKY LOOKY! NO WMD'S!! LOOKY LOOKY LOOKY! NYAH NYAH NYAH NYAAAAAAHNYAAAAAHHHH!' Most unimpressive. Nothing like 'we failed to make a valid argument against the President's plan of invasion that would sway either his own opinion or that of the American public' will ever come out of them.

The left had the opportunity to make such an argument. They had the opportunity to question the President's Iraqi-centric foreign policy. They instead chose to pout, call him the 'President Select', insist he was illigitemately installed, deny the recession he inherited, and insist that the intelligence GWB and his Cabinet were getting was all wrong whilst NEVER REVIEWING IT THEMSELVES.

Do I hold GWB not at all responsible for the current situation? Not hardly. Do I hold Republican supporters not at all responsible? Not by a long shot. Do I consider the Democrats free of blame? Not by a long shot either.

During the Bush Administration the Left has played the role of the minority in Congress absolutely brilliantly. However, they have done so only out of a desire to oppose Bush at any cost, and not out of any adherence to any ideology or general plan. They have robbed the nation of what it so deserves - an opposing party that argues coherently, based upon facts, data, and research, presenting an alternative point of view.

Now that I've said it, what DO you propose we do now, Bill? Cut and run? Increase our presence? Decrease it? Ask for the Russki's and Chinese to help, perhaps? Initiate tactical nuclear strikes against Iran? What, praytell?

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[CanuckInUSA 0]

What would you do if a hostile military forced showed up in your country? Would you do nothing? No you would fight them. I would fight a hostile military force in my country. Why is Iraq different? Why do some people not understand why Iraqis are not happy that a hostile foreign military is occupying their country?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[billvon 2,426]

>Bill - don't hold your breath on that one.

(holding breath)

> If I held my breath waiting for leftists to tell me why their beloved
> icons in the House and Senate didn't care enough about the war
> they were voting to support to actually read the intelligence to which
> they had access . . .

Ah, the third statement on my list! I can breathe easy.

>What do you think our current course of action should be?

We can:

Stay for the civil war. Pick a side and kill another few tens of thousands of Iraqis. Lose another few thousand US soldiers.

Get out before the civil war. Watch it kill tens of thousands of Iraqis.

"Crack down" and establish a strong central government to 'protect the Iraqis from themselves.' Fortunately we have someone in custody who has experience doing this. Again, lots of americans and lots of Iraqis will die, but at least we will have our PNAC goal. And what to do with Saddam will be taken care of.

None of them are good. Option 2 will result in the fewest US deaths, but makes the region that much more volatile.

> How do you propose we deal with the current situation?

We have no more good options. It's like a guy who gets a woman drunk, has sex with her, then waits ten months until she has a baby - then starts complaining that he can't afford the paternity payments. "Why does everyone just criticize me? I can't afford these payments! Why doesn't anyone have any GOOD suggestions?" The time to think about that was ten months prior.

The time to think about what good options would be is BEFORE we screwed this particular pooch. All we have left are bad options, and a lot of americans will pay with their lives because of them.

>I have heard nobody - and I do mean nobody - on the left offer an
> alternative plan that's remotely feasible.

I have done so about ten times previous to this. Every time you've had a reason that it sucks. Well, now we're at the point where even those won't work.

(Which BTW is a great strategy for the right to take. Ignore all advice. When it's too late, lament "why can't the left ever give us any good advice?")

>The left had the opportunity to make such an argument.

They did. They were soundly and completely ignored.

>However, they have done so only out of a desire to oppose Bush
>at any cost . . . .

And because many republicans actually believe this, they respond to any comment about the war, any suggestion to do something differently as "Oh, another Bush bash, you pathetic crybabies!" Increased UN involvement - a Bush bash. More preplanning before the invasion - just trying to make Bush look like he has no plan. Letting the UN finish inspections before invading - "do you hate America, or just Bush?"

>Now that I've said it, what DO you propose we do now, Bill?

We are out of good options. The only thing that remains is how we want to see this colossal fuckup through. I don't know enough about Middle Eastern politics and warfare to know what will be the 'least bad' of our possible options - and it has become abundantly clear that no one in the White House does either. So one thing I propose is to get someone in there who does, as fast as we can, before we lose another 2000 US troops. (And it doesn't have to be Bush that gets replaced - it could be a secretary of state with the brains of a Powell and the savvy of a Kissinger who Bush listens to. The latter is tough to imagine though.)

(BTW if it gets bad you might consider FOX's latest approach - that the civil war might be a good thing overall, and shows Bush's brilliance in planning this war.)

[kallend 1,644]

Quote

Now that I've said it, what DO you propose we do now, .....


What, praytell?

Start working on that time machine.

Some of us are on record predicting a quagmire from day 1.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

What would you do if a hostile military forced showed up in your country? Would you do nothing? No you would fight them. I would fight a hostile military force in my country. Why is Iraq different? Why do some people not understand why Iraqis are not happy that a hostile foreign military is occupying their country?

Umm, Iraq lost a war that IT STARTED. Losing has consequences. So does signing a surrender treaty to avoid being counter invaded.

Doesn't mean you have to like it, but when you violate the terms on directions from the top, you can expect more pain in return. Saddam wanted to have his cake and eat it too, and that's why he's out of power now, and being tried as a somewhat common criminal.

---
This is in contrast to the current situation, where you have individual Iraqis (and others) fighting the occupation and the new 'power' structure of Iraq. Can't say I blame them, even if I oppose them.

[TheAnvil 0]

Ahhhh...the words of the 20th Century's greatest President are coming to mind..."There you go again."

Make the region more volatile, you say? Odd way of stating 'let the Iranians take over a much larger area of the Middle East and larger portion of the world's oil supply.' Do you think the extra land will satiate the mullahs' desire to support Hamas, Hezbollah, and other terrorist organizations who don't like the US, perhaps?

Basically, you don't have any ideas or options different than the administration does, but people more to your liking would undoubtedly do a better job. Hmmmmm...perhaps they could then be in charge, once again not even read the intelligence presented to them, and then choose from the same range of options.

OOPS! i'm sorry. Did I mention not even reading intelligence available to someone? Those same people who made arguments that were ignored - perhaps because their arguments weren't strong because they didn't read the intelligence presented them? The same people that talk about ship manifolds being inspected when discussing the UAE port controversy today? Lots of manifolds on ships. Potable water, HP air, LP air...I'm sure those talking about manifolds have thoroughly read the intel/source data on port security almost as well as they read the pre-Iraq war intelligence - wouldn't you agree? They have so much credibility when it comes to presenting alternative arguments, don't they?

The arguments against the Bush administration pre-war positions were pathetic and it's small wonder they were ignored. "Saddam doesn't have WMDs! Look at Rumsfeld and Saddam! Here's a picture! Never mind the picture! Saddam doesn't have WMDs! The ones we gave him disappeared into thin air!" And a partridge in a pear tree.

Iraq right now is not going well. Any solution leaving Iran in control is a non-solution.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[warpedskydiver 0]

Quote

What would you do if a hostile military forced showed up in your country? Would you do nothing? No you would fight them. I would fight a hostile military force in my country. Why is Iraq different? Why do some people not understand why Iraqis are not happy that a hostile foreign military is occupying their country?

I bet all you would do is hurl insults!

[warpedskydiver 0]

Quote

Quote

Now that I've said it, what DO you propose we do now, .....


What, praytell?

Start working on that time machine.

Some of us are on record predicting a quagmire from day 1.

John, some of our politicians made damned sure it became a quagmire...some of them have been in power since the last time they sold us out to our enemies(Vietnam) and some went into politics shortly after they made deals in Paris, right after the war

[warpedskydiver 0]

Vinny, they just wanna go by UIR ( UNITED ISLAMIC REPUBLIC ) flags so they can wave them when Iran seizes power and say shame on you Americans!