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Sneakerz

Hypocrisy at its best, GUNS and Liberals

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What difference does that make?

He was not speaking of if it were EMOTIONALLY possible for Americans, but that it IS feasible to fight against a government without violence.



That's not "fighting against a government." That's "appealing to a government."

What would they have done if that government had decided, "Fuck it! You got yourself a fight!"?

It would have been "fight, or die as a pacifist."


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What you seem to be implying though is that Americans MUSt solve such problems with violence because we are incapable of such peaceful means.

And these days, I may have to agree. :|



I think you are engaging in hyperbole because it makes your point look all special. You don't REALLY agree with that assessment, because you can look right to the recent contested presidential election(s) and see that we did NOT resort to violent conflict because of political discord.

-
-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

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He was not speaking of if it were EMOTIONALLY possible for Americans, but that it IS feasible to fight against a government without violence.



Not only is it feasible, but it's a LOT more likely to succeed.

One person stopped a tank in Tiannamen Square. With a gun woul've been fodder.



Still, I can't get around the notion that the tank driver agreed to stop.

Besides, I thought students were MASSACRED at Tienamen Square... :S

Am I misremembering my history again?


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I meet a lot of Americans who hold onto their guns in an idea that it somehow protects them from the government.



On a day-to-day basis, no, I have my guns because I don't want to be a victim of your average, garden-variety criminal. A secondary benefit to having guns is having a large armed populace to stand as a deterrent to government tyranny.

But no, my personal guns are mostly for personal defense from the criminal element.

-
-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

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Back in the day, I made a few shaped charges just for kicks to fall trees and kick out stumps.

Heck of a lot of fun!

I wasn't really all that great at it but still would probably get me a ticket to Gitmo these days.

Good thing back then kids were almost expected to blow shit up 'eh?
illegible usually

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Its NOT my solution.

But I am defending as an option. And one that actually has validity.



We won the war for U.S. independence by fighting. If we had sat there and stood in the way of redcoats and put flowers into their musket barrels, what do you think would have happened?

Would we be independent?

-
-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

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But, to follow your logic ( and twist it a bit) cars kill people too, they are stollen and are owned by crimials. (and that doen't make them illegal cars) Shouldn't we , by extention of your logic, make cars illegal too, and should be controlled then confiscated?



Cars are already registered and illegal if not registered.

However, to clarify my original question, there are many illegally owned guns in circulation (such as guns in the possession of felons). What is the process by which a legally owned gun becomes an illegally owned one, and I'll add, what should law abiding citizen gun owners do to prevent their guns from becoming illegally owned? Do you believe they have any responsibility in the matter?



They should have all the responsibility for the CRIMINAL ACTS OF OTHERS (burglary and gun theft/possession of gun by felon) that CAR owners have for the theft of their cars by criminals who use them to kill people, or to escape from bank robberies, etc.

If you are prepared to hold the gun owner from whom a gun is illegally stolen criminally accountable, what if the item the criminal steals is a butcher knife, or an axe, and he kills someone with that?

Besides, you are wrong on a major "factual" count: cars are NOT "illegal if not registered." They must be registered ONLY if they are to be used on public roads.

I could own a hundred cars if I wanted to. They don't need to be registered unless I drive them on the roads.

So if I don't plan to take my guns out in public, according to your logic I should not have to register them.

And besides, registering cars does ZERO to prevent them from being either:
-used criminally by their owners
-stolen and used criminally by the thief

Besides, does anything prevent someone from just flouting the law and going ahead and driving an unregistered car on the roads?


-
-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

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I have never owned a firearm so I can't have one confiscated. I am not so stupid as to think any weapon I can own would make me a match for the current US military.



Fine, but why are you acting so stupid that you seem to believe it would be YOU with your PUNY WEAPON against the "current US military"?

We are talking about multitudes. Each may have "only" a good quality hunting rifle. But do you need more than that to pick off a single soldier in the woods from a hidden vantage point? Are you saying that sniping is not an effective military tactic?

No one said it had to be a single guy with his .308 to take on the entire military, kallend.

You're an engineer, right? Do you design and build strawmen for a living? :S

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By not owning a firearm there is NO chance that I can have a gun stolen and pass into criminal hands. Something you legal gun enthusiasts consistently ignore is the process by which you allow legal guns to become illegal guns.



I have never "allowed" that to happen. Should I be punished (via confiscation of the guns I have never allowed criminals to get possession of) for never having provided a gun to a criminal?

You'd better give up your car, kallend. Cars are stolen all the time, joyrided, and used to collide with and kill innocent people. YOU could be the next person who provides a lethal car to a criminal.

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Not likely, because I take effective anti-theft precautions. As should gun owners with their guns. The only ones I have an issue with are the ones that take no precautions, leave their guns unsecured with kids around, etc.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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[

Oh sure the system isn't perfect. Someone could always steal your gun. That is if you are fool hardy enough to let that happen....Steve1



How many illegal guns are in circulation? How did they get to be illegal? By what process did they change status from legal guns belonging to law abiding citizens?



How many of them are stolen (or lost) from the cops or the military? Would you advocate against their having guns the way you do against civilians having guns, just because they could end up in criminals' hands? I was living on Long Island when, in the mid '90s, a parks police station was broken into and a few dozen GLOCK pistols were stolen -- sure to end up in criminal hands since one had to be a criminal to do the break-in in the first place. :|

Kallend, you talk a line of shit, here. You say, on the one hand, that you "support the second amendment" (i.e. you support the right to keep and bear arms); but I suspect that you do so ONLY because it is the law of the land, and NOT because you actually believe it is an inherent right of humans to have the means to self defense.

I suspect that if the second amendment were repealed tomorrow, you would be squarely on the side of, "Mr. and Mrs. America, turn them all in." :S

I wonder if you would be so cavalier if the right to free speech were suddenly written out of the Constitution...

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Based on my knowledge of the military (which is more extensive than you might think) they take very good care of their weapons' security.

You can search the archives as long as you wish, you will not find any instance of my wanting MORE government control over the people, or fewer rights for the people, on any issue.

You need to get your anger in check or you will not reach middle age without a coronary.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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India, the worlds largest democratic nation, demonstrated that very nicely during its "fight" for independence.


"I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence... Hence also do I advocate training in arms for those who believe in the method of violence. I would rather have India resort to arms in order to defend her honor than that she should in a cowardly manner become or remain a helpless witness to her own dishonor."
- Mohandas Gandhi

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India, the worlds largest democratic nation, demonstrated that very nicely during its "fight" for independence.


"I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence...."
- Mohandas Gandhi



But Ghandi saw another choice that was neither cowardice nor violence, and he clearly preferred that.


"Better jaw-jaw than war-war", Winston Spencer Churchill
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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India, the worlds largest democratic nation, demonstrated that very nicely during its "fight" for independence.


"I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence...."
- Mohandas Gandhi



But Ghandi saw another choice that was neither cowardice nor violence, and he clearly preferred that.




And if he had found that nonviolent sit-ins were met with violent slaughter, he would have advocated, "Fight back," not, "Do nothing; let them slaughter you and show the rest of the world that they're big mean bullies."

"Better jaw-jaw than war-war", Winston Spencer Churchill



Wasn't that said by a guy who took England through a very trying war because it was obvious that the aggressor could not be reasoned with, and appeals to his compassion would have been met with an escort to the gas chamber?

Thanks for providing a great example that even a guy who says talk is preferable to war found that the latter was necessary when one side simply would not sit down to reasonable talks.

-
-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

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You'd better give up your car, kallend. Cars are stolen all the time, joyrided, and used to collide with and kill innocent people. YOU could be the next person who provides a lethal car to a criminal.

-



Not likely, because I take effective anti-theft precautions. As should gun owners with their guns. The only ones I have an issue with are the ones that take no precautions, leave their guns unsecured with kids around, etc.



You're impervious not only to car theft but also to carjacking? It is not even theoretically possible that someone might gain unauthorized access to the use of your car, and then use it for criminal pursuits?

-
-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

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You'd better give up your car, kallend. Cars are stolen all the time, joyrided, and used to collide with and kill innocent people. YOU could be the next person who provides a lethal car to a criminal.

-



Not likely, because I take effective anti-theft precautions. As should gun owners with their guns. The only ones I have an issue with are the ones that take no precautions, leave their guns unsecured with kids around, etc.



You're impervious not only to car theft but also to carjacking? It is not even theoretically possible that someone might gain unauthorized access to the use of your car, and then use it for criminal pursuits?

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It's theoretically possible that all the oxygen atoms in your bedroom migrate to the ceiling during the night and you die of anoxia. However, I doubt you worry too much about that in your paranoia about being a crime victim.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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You're impervious not only to car theft but also to carjacking? It is not even theoretically possible that someone might gain unauthorized access to the use of your car, and then use it for criminal pursuits?

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It's theoretically possible that all the oxygen atoms in your bedroom migrate to the ceiling during the night and you die of anoxia. However, I doubt you worry too much about that in your paranoia about being a crime victim.



Is there some explainable, simple reason that would cause all the oxygen atoms in my bedroom to migrate to the ceiling?

Some reason on a par with the simplicity with which some dude could walk up to you just as you are getting into your car in a parking lot, stick a knife at your back and demand your keys muthafucka? :S

You are grasping, kallend. It looks really pathetic. Dunno how you can't see it...

I'm the one paranoid about being a crime victim? If you weren't paranoid about the potential to be a crime victim, why are you so concerned about what other people do with their guns?

-
-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

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You're impervious not only to car theft but also to carjacking? It is not even theoretically possible that someone might gain unauthorized access to the use of your car, and then use it for criminal pursuits?

-



It's theoretically possible that all the oxygen atoms in your bedroom migrate to the ceiling during the night and you die of anoxia. However, I doubt you worry too much about that in your paranoia about being a crime victim.



Is there some explainable, simple reason that would cause all the oxygen atoms in my bedroom to migrate to the ceiling?

Some reason on a par with the simplicity with which some dude could walk up to you just as you are getting into your car in a parking lot, stick a knife at your back and demand your keys muthafucka? :S

You are grasping, kallend. It looks really pathetic. Dunno how you can't see it...

I'm the one paranoid about being a crime victim? If you weren't paranoid about the potential to be a crime victim, why are you so concerned about what other people do with their guns?

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I thank you for your concern about my well being, but it is misplaced. I have managed to go unarmed for over 60 years without being a victim. My father lived (unarmed) to be 92 without being a victim.

My interest in how guns become illegally owned is more in the nature of researching the well known NRA defense "If guns are outlawed, then only outlaws will have guns".

I think asking how outlaws get guns is a very valid question. Apparently you don't care as long as you have yours.
...

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Is there some explainable, simple reason that would cause all the oxygen atoms in my bedroom to migrate to the ceiling?

-



Anything that is not forbidden by the laws of physics is possible. There is no law of physics that would prevent the oxygen and nitrogen from un-mixing. It is just unlikely. Don't worry about it, it probably won't happen to you and you already have enough other stuff to fret about.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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"maybe this is a place where both sides can come together to come up with solutions that everyone can live with. "

Heresy!;)

If only my friend, if only.....
--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

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"I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence...."
- Mohandas Gandhi



But Ghandi saw another choice that was neither cowardice nor violence, and he clearly preferred that.



Sure, and I think most everyone would. But I wanted to dispel the notion that Gandhi was against violence, no matter what. He was willing to use it if it was necessary.
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest." - Mahatma Gandhi

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"I do believe that where there is a choice only between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence...."
- Mohandas Gandhi



But Ghandi saw another choice that was neither cowardice nor violence, and he clearly preferred that.



Sure, and I think most everyone would. But I wanted to dispel the notion that Gandhi was against violence, no matter what. He was willing to use it if it was necessary.
"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest." - Mahatma Gandhi



If my only choice was a diet of liver or brains, I'd choose liver.

But once chocolate becomes available...
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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Is there some explainable, simple reason that would cause all the oxygen atoms in my bedroom to migrate to the ceiling?

-



Anything that is not forbidden by the laws of physics is possible. There is no law of physics that would prevent the oxygen and nitrogen from un-mixing. It is just unlikely. Don't worry about it, it probably won't happen to you and you already have enough other stuff to fret about.




It seemed that you were trying to compare the likelihood of oxygen inexplicably migrating to my ceiling with the likelihood of someone carjacking you.

We know some of the reasons people do carjackings.

Is there an EXPLANATION for what would CAUSE the oxygen to migrate there?

Just as you said that nothing against the laws of physics is possible, nothing that is not cause by something ever occurs.

What would be the CAUSE of the oxygen migration?

-
-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

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Is there some explainable, simple reason that would cause all the oxygen atoms in my bedroom to migrate to the ceiling?

-



Anything that is not forbidden by the laws of physics is possible. There is no law of physics that would prevent the oxygen and nitrogen from un-mixing. It is just unlikely. Don't worry about it, it probably won't happen to you and you already have enough other stuff to fret about.




It seemed that you were trying to compare the likelihood of oxygen inexplicably migrating to my ceiling with the likelihood of someone carjacking you.

We know some of the reasons people do carjackings.

Is there an EXPLANATION for what would CAUSE the oxygen to migrate there?

Just as you said that nothing against the laws of physics is possible, nothing that is not cause by something ever occurs.

What would be the CAUSE of the oxygen migration?

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Because it can. Actually it's more likely to fall to the floor because oxygen molecules are heavier than nitrogen. You SHOULD be asking the question "if oxygen is heavier than nitrogen, why don't all the oxygen molecules sink to the bottom. Why do they stay mixed?"
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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