Biofuel Destroys the Rainforest

[JohnRich 4]

News:

THE drive for "green energy" in the developed world is having the perverse effect of encouraging the destruction of tropical rainforests. From the orang-utan reserves of Borneo to the Brazilian Amazon, virgin forest is being razed to grow palm oil and soybeans to fuel cars and power stations in Europe and North America. And surging prices are likely to accelerate the destruction

The rush to make energy from vegetable oils is being driven in part by European Union laws requiring conventional fuels to be blended with biofuels, and by subsidies equivalent to 20 pence a litre. Last week, the British government announced a target for biofuels to make up 5 per cent of transport fuels by 2010. The aim is to help meet Kyoto protocol targets for reducing greenhouse-gas emissions...

Source: New Scientist

Well, that should make the environmentalists schizophrenic.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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Well, that should make the environmentalists schizophrenic.

Was the point of this to educate or to irk?

My though is just to push buttons. How do you feel about drilling in Alaska?

As far as slash and burn for industry? It will happen no matter what - people are driven to make money. There will always be people that can't see or don't want to see past their wallet.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[billvon 2,435]

>Well, that should make the environmentalists schizophrenic.

Why? I'm an enviromentalist; it doesn't bother me. Makes sense when you think about it. Slash-and-burn agriculture for any reason has the same effects.

Two coal fired power plants in Massachusetts alone kill about 150 people a year in nearby towns. Does that make you schizophrenic?

[kelpdiver 2]

it's worth knowing, puts in context the hidden costs of Brazil using a large percentage of biofuel.

A lot of 'sustainable' processes are only that if the whole situation isn't viewed. Shrimp farming eliminates the gross by catch waste (90-95%), but destroys mangroves.

[shropshire 0]

You've high-lighted a problem here but dont offer a solution (clearly oil reserves are dwindling and so alternative arrangements need to be made).
Some countires did not sign up to Kyoto and do not appear to be working all that hard at seeking solutions. Others did and are trying to put plans in place for the future - Some of them may work, whilst others will be daft... but there is no acceptable "Do Nothing" option.

Thoughts?

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[rushmc 18]

Quote

>Well, that should make the environmentalists schizophrenic.

Why? I'm an enviromentalist; it doesn't bother me. Makes sense when you think about it. Slash-and-burn agriculture for any reason has the same effects.

Two coal fired power plants in Massachusetts alone kill about 150 people a year in nearby towns. Does that make you schizophrenic?

I have seen those "kill about X" claims before about coal fired plants. Nerver have seen any data to back it up

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 18]

Quote

You've high-lighted a problem here but dont offer a solution (clearly oil reserves are dwindling and so alternative arrangements need to be made).
Some countires did not sign up to Kyoto and do not appear to be working all that hard at seeking solutions. Others did and are trying to put plans in place for the future - Some of them may work, whilst others will be daft... but there is no acceptable "Do Nothing" option.

Thoughts?

Another no data to back it up claim
I have been hearing that we will run out of oil in 10 years for the last 30 years. .....and it is estimated that the worlds largest reserves of oil are in shale in the Rockies. Expensive to get but there non the less.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 1,648]

Quote

Quote

>Well, that should make the environmentalists schizophrenic.

Why? I'm an enviromentalist; it doesn't bother me. Makes sense when you think about it. Slash-and-burn agriculture for any reason has the same effects.

Two coal fired power plants in Massachusetts alone kill about 150 people a year in nearby towns. Does that make you schizophrenic?

I have seen those "kill about X" claims before about coal fired plants. Nerver have seen any data to back it up

Did you look for any? If you did, did you keep your eyes closed?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 18]

I didn't make the claim that we are running out.

As for the coal fired plants I have seen the data on both sides.

Not conclusive for either side at best.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 2,435]

>I have seen those "kill about X" claims before about coal
>fired plants. Nerver have seen any data to back it up.

Particulate emissions cause lung cancer. There is plenty of data on this from studies on smoking and effects of coal dust on miners and on city dwellers in places like London.

Emissions from old coal fired power plants are especially bad, since older plants allow a lot of mercury, arsenic, uranium, thorium etc to escape into the atmosphere. There's plenty of data showing how much mercury (for example) a given power plant emits.

Those two power plants emit X million tons of particulates a year; the plumes increase local particulate concentrations by X parts per million. The math is pretty straightforward.

That's for one pollutant. Coal fired power plants emit other pollutants as well, such as SOx and NOx. These also contribute to death rates.

The original study is below.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/papers/plant/executive.pdf

[kallend 1,648]

Quote

I didn't make the claim that we are running out.

As for the coal fired plants I have seen the data on both sides.

Not conclusive for either side at best.

You've seen data that coal fired power plants lead to longer, healthier lives? Please post a link.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 2,435]

>As for the coal fired plants I have seen the data on both sides.

So have you seen data that says:

-SOx, NOx and particulate emissions have no adverse health effects? Odd, but some people believe smoking doesn't cause cancer, so I could see someone thinking this.

-Coal fired power plants do not emit SOx, NOx or particulate pollution? Even odder.

-Epidemiology is all a bunch of hooey?

[rushmc 18]

I have seen these studies. They are statistical conclusions. People die from living next to gravel roads too.

I am not saying it has not effect because there has to be some. The action reaction thing but to throw a number out there is not much better than a guess.

You reference London. The US plants are much much cleaner (than what older London plants were. I have no idea were they are today) and are getting cleaner still.

Oh, and I am not for dirty air and poluted water so my childrens children will suffer. Thought I should throw that out there before the claim is made I want everyone to die

I do want responcibe solutions from the debate though, not extreem ones

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 18]

You love trying to put words into others mouths

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 1,648]

Quote

You love trying to put words into others mouths

The "other side" from coal fired plants kill you is that they make you healthier.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 18]

Help me understand something about your views.

Where do you draw the line?

When it comes to energy and the environment, the economy or a way of life, where do you think the line should be? What is an aceptable risk or result?

Should we all ride bikes and burn wood or coal? (even though wood and coal fires are worse for the air)

Help me understand how you view this?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 1,648]

Quote

I have seen these studies. They are statistical conclusions. People die from living next to gravel roads too.

What level of proof are you demanding? Apparently it's more proof than you needed from GWB about Iraqi WMDs before supporting his invasion?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 18]

Try to reframe the debate if you want. I am not biting

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 18]

Quote

Quote

I have seen these studies. They are statistical conclusions. People die from living next to gravel roads too.

Apparently it's more proof than you needed from GWB about Iraqi WMDs before supporting his invasion?

Proof? Bbbbwwwwhhhhhaaaaaaaaa

Edited to correct the name
"Disinformation: The 22 myths that undermine the war on terror" by Richard Miniter

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 1,648]

Quote

Quote

Quote

I have seen these studies. They are statistical conclusions. People die from living next to gravel roads too.

Apparently it's more proof than you needed from GWB about Iraqi WMDs before supporting his invasion?

Proof? Bbbbwwwwhhhhhaaaaaaaaa

Edited to correct the name
"Disinformation: The 22 myths that undermine the war on terror" by Richard Miniter

Next you'll be trying to convince us that the hydrogen gas plants for weather balloons really were bioweapons labs and that Rumsfeld really did "know where they are".

I find it unremarkable that you demand almost no proof of claims supporting the right wing agenda, yet want watertight proof of claims supporting an environmental risk.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Quote

You love trying to put words into others mouths

The "other side" from coal fired plants kill you is that they make you healthier.

No it's not. They either kill you or they don't.

[billvon 2,435]

>I have seen these studies. They are statistical conclusions.

Yes. They are the same sorts of studies that made us realize that smoking is bad for you, and shielding on nuclear reactors is pretty important.

>The action reaction thing but to throw a number out there is not
>much better than a guess.

For you, true. There are other people who spend their lives studying such things; their guesses are much, much better. You trust your life to these people whenever you drink water from a tap, or get a vaccination, or fly on an airliner. They do a pretty good job in general.

>You reference London. The US plants are much much cleaner . . .

Right. London is a data point because we know that very bad pollution kills a lot of people quickly.

>I do want responcibe solutions from the debate though, not
>extreem ones . . .

Responsible solutions to the problem of coal power plant pollution? Here are a few:

Every power plant in the US meets EPA standards, period. No more political exceptions. No New Source Review loopholes.

EPA standards are updated to BACT standards every five years, and power plants have to meet those within the next five years. Again, no exceptions.

Solutions for the problems with biofuels? Again, pretty straightforward. Farms meet EPA and Department of Agriculture requirements for watershed protection, water usage and the like.

[jumpinfarmer 0]

Quote

Quote

Well, that should make the environmentalists schizophrenic.

Was the point of this to educate or to irk?

My though is just to push buttons. How do you feel about drilling in Alaska?

As far as slash and burn for industry? It will happen no matter what - people are driven to make money. There will always be people that can't see or don't want to see past their wallet.

I think you put it well saying that. Certain people can't ever be satisfied.

From what I know rain-forest is not being used to grow soybeans in Brazil. I have talked to several people who have visited farms in Brazil and read several articles and even have a neighbor who left his farm here in the Genesee Valley to farm in Moto Graso (SP) Brazil. They all have been asked the rainforest question. The answer is simply no. The new farmland being made in Brazil is from what is called soweto (sp) a grass land with scrub brush, it is very easily cleared unlike forest land.

Furthermore in the US we can produce enough bio-fuel for our oun use from the crops and land we have here in this country.

As for those of you who want to continuously bash the bio-fuel industry think about this. Where will all the people who just lost there jobs at GM and many other US companies work in the future? Do you think that the Mid Eastern oil companies are going to give them jobs? Domestically produced bio-fuels provide jobs for thousands now and will create thousands more jobs in the near future if they are allowed to succeed without the BIG-OIL lovers getting in there way.

[shropshire 0]

eh
<I have been hearing that we will run out of oil in 10 years for the last 30 years. .....and it is estimated that the worlds largest reserves of oil are in shale in the Rockies. Expensive to get but there non the less. >>

INFO : The worlds' Oil supply is finite... we are using it (oh yes and lots of it) ... it will therefore run out - QED.

How much more information could you possibly need?

It matters not if the oil runs out in 10, 30, or 200 years... it WILL run out and we NEED to get ready for it ASAP (with planning, proper design & testing) not leave it to the last minute.


.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Can you get chainsaws that will run on biodiesel?

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson