artistcalledian 0 #226 December 9, 2005 QuoteQuotewhy don't you quote the article in full? Because that would be a copyright violation. Do you have a problem clicking on the link I provided? Do you have any point you wish to make? ok, i'll do it for you QuoteTEXAN policeman Ben Johnson has been pounding the beat in Reading for several years - during which time he sadly appears to have picked up not one scrap of knowledge about the British way of life. followed by.... QuoteOur town may not be perfect but it is a world away from the Wild West and days of the Texas Rangers which PC Johnson seems to be imagining. Thankfully, we do not have armed gangs roaming our streets on a routine basis. Most of the criminal fraternity of Reading have probably only seen guns in the film world of Dirty Harry. enough said ________________________________________ drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #227 December 9, 2005 can't help but note a slight difference in city size, though. One is ~230k, the other around 5M. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #228 December 9, 2005 Dont let tiny facts like that get in the way of an SC discussion.... (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
artistcalledian 0 #229 December 9, 2005 Quotecan't help but note a slight difference in city size, though. One is ~230k, the other around 5M. and he still didn't feel safe without a gun BWAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH________________________________________ drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #230 December 9, 2005 QuoteQuoteLet the facts speak for themselves. ...the last Reading police officer to be murdered. It happened in 1971. Since that day 44 heavily armed Dallas police officers have died in the line of duty. Selective Reading Mr Rich? This looks like selective thinking on your part. What are the relative populations of Reading, England, and Dallas, Texas? Answer: 233,000 and 4,000,000, respectively. So, first of all, the attempt to compare the two cities without normalizing for the difference in populations is statistically invalid. That's the first clue that this writer isn't the brightest bulb in the pack. Second, the logic implying that the difference in police deaths is somehow due to the fact that Dallas police are armed, is also invalid. And the "danger" of which the Dallas officer speaks, can include a lot more than just death, as the writer assumes. The writer has selectively cherry-picked a statistic to fit his perception. Clue #2. Third, the characterization that Dallas police are "heavily armed" is pure hyperbole. A handgun does not constitute "heavy", except in the eyes of someone who knows nothing about guns, as this writer apparently doesn't. Fourth, let's look at this quote from the editorial: Our town may not be perfect but it is a world away from the Wild West and days of the Texas Rangers which PC Johnson seems to be imagining.Just because a Dallas police officer carries a handgun, does not mean that he is re-living "the Wild West" and "Texas Rangers". It is ironic that this writer first denigrates the Dallas officer's personal view of Reading, but then goes on to display his own gross ignorance of Dallas. Next quote: Thankfully, we do not have armed gangs roaming our streets on a routine basis. Most of the criminal fraternity of Reading have probably only seen guns in the film world of Dirty Harry.There are several sources on the internet which paint a different picture of recent crime in Reading, such as this one:...since 2002, when the town and its police force were named and shamed as one of 10 UK areas with unacceptable levels of street crime... Reading accounted for a large number of offences in Thames Valley... Source: The Reading Guide And how would he know how many criminals have seen guns in real life? Besides, police don't carry arms only to defend against armed criminals. Criminals carry other weapons too, such as knives and clubs, for which a policeman with a gun can be a handy thing to have around. Once again, the writer's assumptions are short-sighted. He should have signed his letter "Midas", as this King has no clothes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #231 December 9, 2005 <> I think not .... because the relative population issues was not raised in the text... That only came to light after wards. Maybe you should come and join me for a beer, it really isn't that dangerous over here - honest. I'm sure that the scariest thing that you'll find is driving on the correct side of the road. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #232 December 11, 2005 QuoteQuoteLet the facts speak for themselves. Det Con Ian Coward - a true hero - was, thankfully, the last Reading police officer to be murdered. It happened in 1971. Since that day 44 heavily armed Dallas police officers have died in the line of duty. Selective Reading Mr Rich?Quote You may be a little too willing to accept everything at face value that this anti-gun person says. But the plot thickens. A little research turns up this: Officer Down Memorial Page When you do a search on Dallas from 1971 to 2005, the number doesn't match up with what your anti-gun hero says. In fact, it looks like in his number, he included deaths from things like traffic accidents and heart attacks. Now surely you don't think that having a gun on your hip causes traffic accidents and heart attacks, do you? By my count, of the 52 Dallas officers who died in the line of duty during those 34 years, 28 of them, or just over half, died from gunfire. Furthermore, the fact that these officers were armed may have had no bearing on the fact that they were killed by a criminal with a gun. Some of them may not have even had time to draw their own weapon. So, Dallas, with 16 times the population of Reading, has had 28 officers killed with guns, compared to one officer murdered in Reading, over the same time period. If you equalize for the population difference, say, by dividing the Dallas deaths by 16 to equal the population size of Reading, that would give a comparison between Reading vs. Dallas of: 1 vs. 1.75. Gosh, suddenly it doesn't look like that much of a difference any more, does it. And since the sample size in Reading is so low, one, it doesn't have much predictive value. That anti-gun writer seems to have some serious problems; not only with getting his facts correct, but also with the poor application of logic. And you bought it all like manna from heaven, just because it fit your preconceived notions about guns. You mentioned "selective reading" about me, but I would like to emphasize something else for you: research and critical thinking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites artistcalledian 0 #233 December 11, 2005 john believe it or not, i actually read your posts fully, and try and understand what your argument is can i ask you this... Do you think our government should arm our police right now or not?________________________________________ drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites shropshire 0 #234 December 11, 2005 Hi John, O.K it's a fair cop... I, you, we, selectively pick stats to support our own 'realities'... Bottom line, then, I would rather not see our cops publically armed. Regards, (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jimbo 0 #235 December 11, 2005 QuoteHi John, O.K it's a fair cop... I, you, we, selectively pick stats to support our own 'realities'... Bottom line, then, I would rather not see our cops publically armed. Regards, Fair enough. I'd rather not see our cops armed, either. The reality though is that in today's society that it's practical and even necessary for them to do so. Forget about what we all want for a moment and ask answer this question: Given the rising numbers of immigrant thugs with guns over there, do you think that it's reasonable to arm the police force? If not as a whole, is it reasonable to arm those who wish to be armed? - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites shropshire 0 #236 December 11, 2005 You know, that's a good question.... But, if the police actually thought that there was a significant rise in danger to the general public (and themselves) due to armed crime in our country - then I'd bow and untlimately support them decision... but athie present time, on the whole, they dont and I support that too. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #237 December 12, 2005 QuoteDo you think our government should arm our police right now or not? Everyone seems to be thinking in an "all or nothing" fashion. I'm not in favor of forcing guns on officers who don't want them. But right now, the anti-gun opinion is being forced upon everyone, whether they agree with it or not. A lot of cops just work administrative functions, like desk jobs and meter maids. Yeah, they don't really need guns. But there are also cops who are on the front lines, in bad neighborhoods, at night, dealing with dangerous criminals daily - they do need guns. I think those officers that do feel that they need to be armed for their safety (20%), should be allowed to take extra training and qualify to do so. As I mentioned earlier, this is exactly the approach that is currently underway for U.S. airline pilots to be armed for cockpit security against terrorists. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Stumpy 256 #238 December 13, 2005 QuoteBut right now, the anti-gun opinion is being forced upon everyone, whether they agree with it or not. No its not - if they want to apply for the armed units they are perfectly entitled to do so?Never try to eat more than you can lift Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #239 December 13, 2005 QuoteQuoteBut right now, the anti-gun opinion is being forced upon everyone, whether they agree with it or not. No its not - if they want to apply for the armed units they are perfectly entitled to do so? 20% of the officers wish to be armed, according to the poll. The armed response units do not constitute 20% of the manpower. Therefore, there are far fewer armed positions on the force, then there are officers who prefer to be armed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites artistcalledian 0 #240 December 13, 2005 i don't see how the police can move to a fully armed force with so many still not wanting, or willing, to carry guns?________________________________________ drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #241 January 3, 2006 News: Fears over tired gun cops SAFETY fears were voiced today after it emerged that specialist armed police officers are routinely working 12-hour shifts. Lothian and Borders Police Federation, which represents rank and file officers, has told Chief Constable Paddy Tomkins it is no longer prepared to sanction the shift patterns for the force's armed response vehicle (ARV) unit. And politicians warned the long hours could impair the judgement of officers making split- second decisions in dangerous situations...Source: Edinburgh Evening News Gee, it would appear that they need more armed cops... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites shropshire 0 #242 January 3, 2006 Hi John - Happy New Year <> QuoteThe officers in the unit are happy to continue working the shifts. Ms Muller said the longer nightshift entitled them to a day off, but because of the staffing problem they often ended up working that day for extra pay. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites christelsabine 1 #243 January 3, 2006 Gee. Some MORE un-armed cops would do the trick, I'm sure No? dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #244 January 3, 2006 QuoteSome MORE un-armed cops would do the trick, I'm sure. No? Incorrect. The problem is lack of enough armed cops to provide 24-hour response coverage, without making them work 12-hour shifts. Thus, you need more armed cops in order to reduce their workload to regular 8-hour duty shifts. In fact, the math would suggest they need about 33% more. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #245 January 3, 2006 QuoteQuoteThe officers in the unit are happy to continue working the shifts. It's not about their willingness. It's about how sharp they can maintain they're mental alertness after working 12-hour shifts, day after day, month after month. Would you prefer a tandem ride from an instructor who has worked 60 hours in the previous five days, or from one who has worked only 40? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites shropshire 0 #246 January 3, 2006 Then they would be really pissed off, because they're not getting their overtime pay..... and the last people that I would want to piss off is a group of Armed Coppers..... (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #247 January 3, 2006 QuoteThen they would be really pissed off, because they're not getting their overtime pay..... and the last people that I would want to piss off is a group of Armed Coppers..... The public deserves to have officers who aren't burned-out from overwork. What the officers want is secondary to public safety. Should we allow truck drivers to drive 20 hours per day, so that they can make more money? I think not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites shropshire 0 #248 January 3, 2006 I hear what you're saying but they're adults (in the main) and so can decide how many hours that they want to work (assuming that no presure is being applied by their management - it doesn't read that way). Also, we do not know how they spend their on duty hours .... on the road or in a Crew-room, awaiting a call out. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skyrad 0 #249 January 3, 2006 Lets just take the guns away from the bad guys then we don't need the armed copper! When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites christelsabine 1 #250 January 3, 2006 QuoteQuoteSome MORE un-armed cops would do the trick, I'm sure. No? Incorrect. The problem is lack of enough armed cops to provide 24-hour response coverage, without making them work 12-hour shifts. Thus, you need more armed cops in order to reduce their workload to regular 8-hour duty shifts. In fact, the math would suggest they need about 33% more. Well, I see. Beeing armed would reduce the workload, in your opinion? That's a smart argument. Let me just find out, how and where ... On Thursday, I have to get back to work after holidays. I'll just give it a try and go fully armed.... perhaps it will shorten my office hours or, the work waiting for me already has been done by other armed co-workers.. or .. Well, I'll see. dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 Next Page 10 of 11 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. 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artistcalledian 0 #233 December 11, 2005 john believe it or not, i actually read your posts fully, and try and understand what your argument is can i ask you this... Do you think our government should arm our police right now or not?________________________________________ drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #234 December 11, 2005 Hi John, O.K it's a fair cop... I, you, we, selectively pick stats to support our own 'realities'... Bottom line, then, I would rather not see our cops publically armed. Regards, (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #235 December 11, 2005 QuoteHi John, O.K it's a fair cop... I, you, we, selectively pick stats to support our own 'realities'... Bottom line, then, I would rather not see our cops publically armed. Regards, Fair enough. I'd rather not see our cops armed, either. The reality though is that in today's society that it's practical and even necessary for them to do so. Forget about what we all want for a moment and ask answer this question: Given the rising numbers of immigrant thugs with guns over there, do you think that it's reasonable to arm the police force? If not as a whole, is it reasonable to arm those who wish to be armed? - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #236 December 11, 2005 You know, that's a good question.... But, if the police actually thought that there was a significant rise in danger to the general public (and themselves) due to armed crime in our country - then I'd bow and untlimately support them decision... but athie present time, on the whole, they dont and I support that too. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #237 December 12, 2005 QuoteDo you think our government should arm our police right now or not? Everyone seems to be thinking in an "all or nothing" fashion. I'm not in favor of forcing guns on officers who don't want them. But right now, the anti-gun opinion is being forced upon everyone, whether they agree with it or not. A lot of cops just work administrative functions, like desk jobs and meter maids. Yeah, they don't really need guns. But there are also cops who are on the front lines, in bad neighborhoods, at night, dealing with dangerous criminals daily - they do need guns. I think those officers that do feel that they need to be armed for their safety (20%), should be allowed to take extra training and qualify to do so. As I mentioned earlier, this is exactly the approach that is currently underway for U.S. airline pilots to be armed for cockpit security against terrorists. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stumpy 256 #238 December 13, 2005 QuoteBut right now, the anti-gun opinion is being forced upon everyone, whether they agree with it or not. No its not - if they want to apply for the armed units they are perfectly entitled to do so?Never try to eat more than you can lift Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #239 December 13, 2005 QuoteQuoteBut right now, the anti-gun opinion is being forced upon everyone, whether they agree with it or not. No its not - if they want to apply for the armed units they are perfectly entitled to do so? 20% of the officers wish to be armed, according to the poll. The armed response units do not constitute 20% of the manpower. Therefore, there are far fewer armed positions on the force, then there are officers who prefer to be armed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
artistcalledian 0 #240 December 13, 2005 i don't see how the police can move to a fully armed force with so many still not wanting, or willing, to carry guns?________________________________________ drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #241 January 3, 2006 News: Fears over tired gun cops SAFETY fears were voiced today after it emerged that specialist armed police officers are routinely working 12-hour shifts. Lothian and Borders Police Federation, which represents rank and file officers, has told Chief Constable Paddy Tomkins it is no longer prepared to sanction the shift patterns for the force's armed response vehicle (ARV) unit. And politicians warned the long hours could impair the judgement of officers making split- second decisions in dangerous situations...Source: Edinburgh Evening News Gee, it would appear that they need more armed cops... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #242 January 3, 2006 Hi John - Happy New Year <> QuoteThe officers in the unit are happy to continue working the shifts. Ms Muller said the longer nightshift entitled them to a day off, but because of the staffing problem they often ended up working that day for extra pay. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #243 January 3, 2006 Gee. Some MORE un-armed cops would do the trick, I'm sure No? dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #244 January 3, 2006 QuoteSome MORE un-armed cops would do the trick, I'm sure. No? Incorrect. The problem is lack of enough armed cops to provide 24-hour response coverage, without making them work 12-hour shifts. Thus, you need more armed cops in order to reduce their workload to regular 8-hour duty shifts. In fact, the math would suggest they need about 33% more. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #245 January 3, 2006 QuoteQuoteThe officers in the unit are happy to continue working the shifts. It's not about their willingness. It's about how sharp they can maintain they're mental alertness after working 12-hour shifts, day after day, month after month. Would you prefer a tandem ride from an instructor who has worked 60 hours in the previous five days, or from one who has worked only 40? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #246 January 3, 2006 Then they would be really pissed off, because they're not getting their overtime pay..... and the last people that I would want to piss off is a group of Armed Coppers..... (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #247 January 3, 2006 QuoteThen they would be really pissed off, because they're not getting their overtime pay..... and the last people that I would want to piss off is a group of Armed Coppers..... The public deserves to have officers who aren't burned-out from overwork. What the officers want is secondary to public safety. Should we allow truck drivers to drive 20 hours per day, so that they can make more money? I think not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #248 January 3, 2006 I hear what you're saying but they're adults (in the main) and so can decide how many hours that they want to work (assuming that no presure is being applied by their management - it doesn't read that way). Also, we do not know how they spend their on duty hours .... on the road or in a Crew-room, awaiting a call out. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #249 January 3, 2006 Lets just take the guns away from the bad guys then we don't need the armed copper! When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #250 January 3, 2006 QuoteQuoteSome MORE un-armed cops would do the trick, I'm sure. No? Incorrect. The problem is lack of enough armed cops to provide 24-hour response coverage, without making them work 12-hour shifts. Thus, you need more armed cops in order to reduce their workload to regular 8-hour duty shifts. In fact, the math would suggest they need about 33% more. Well, I see. Beeing armed would reduce the workload, in your opinion? That's a smart argument. Let me just find out, how and where ... On Thursday, I have to get back to work after holidays. I'll just give it a try and go fully armed.... perhaps it will shorten my office hours or, the work waiting for me already has been done by other armed co-workers.. or .. Well, I'll see. dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
