Should "Bobby" get a gun?

[miked10270 0]

Quote

You can choose to be murdered without defending yourself if you wish. But you don't have any right to make that decision for your fellow officers...

Hi John,

Unfortunately, arming the British Police Service couldn't be down to individual choice. One consideration in deciding to arm the police would be the threat percieved by an armed perpetrator of a crime when confronted by a police officer. Some armed and some not couldn't work.

Incidentally, while most "Brits" accept an unarmed society, I believe that the perpetrators of this particular crime and some other firearms offences come from different cultures where bearing arms is considered the norm.

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

Quote

Want to know when the last time a police officer was shot dead? It was 2 years ago by a visiting American. The last time before that and you have to look back 10 years. Let me just repeat that. You have to look back TEN YEARS for another fatal police shooting.

Just to put that in perspective if you look at www.leoka.com to see that in the US over the last 10 yrs there has been ana average of over 60 policemen/Law Enforcement officers killed each year.

First of all, America has five times the population of England, so you can't compare raw numbers. If you reduced that number by four-fifths to match the population for a per-capita comparison, America would have only about 12 per year.

Concerning the claim that only two officers were previously killed in 12 years in England prior to this most recent murder, I question that info. The Police Memorial Trust shows 17 officers killed in England in the last 10 years. And if you add Ireland, the number jumps up 7 more.
Source: Police Memorial

As to the idea that the vast majority of cops don't want guns, see this news from the Police Federation of England:

The Police Federation has repeated their call for more authorised firearms officers across the country following the shooting of PC Sharon Beshenivsky. Jan Berry, chairman of the Federation, has said that the service wants more officers to be given firearms training as they face increasing danger on the streets of Britain.
She said: ‘We have seen an increase in gun crime year on year and police officers out on the streets are telling us that our resilience is just not enough.’

There are police organizations advocating more guns.

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

Want to compare statistics of armed police in the USA getting shot vs unarmed police in the UK getting shot? Go on, I double-dog-dare you.

Do you mean to suggest that being unarmed reduces your chances of being shot?

Go on, I double-dog-dare you.

And aren't you one of those always crying about how any comparisons between England and the U.S. are invalid? Or does that only apply when the statistics don't go your way?

[billvon 2,435]

>Do you mean to suggest that being unarmed reduces your chances
>of being shot?

Being unarmed dramatically decreased the chances of being shot with your own gun.

[shropshire 0]

Good evening Mr Rich,

We haven't surrendered to the thugs at all. There really isn't that much gun related crime in the U.K.

We dont need to be armed to defend our selves from shadows.

Are you a gun salesman by any chance or just have shares in S&W

Currenlty, our hospitals do not have to deal with large numbers of GSWs and I for one would like to keep it that way - can you say that about the US?

Also, I dont presume to speak for my country, but you may care to know that it is currently the majority that really do not want to see a gun culture develolpe here (and the police, on the whole support this view).

I'm not scared of guns per se... I just cann't see the point of owning one. I do all my hunting at TESCO.
.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

JohnRich, you're lighting up every gun thread with your profound comments: Bwahahaha, LMFAO. Indeed.

I'm sorry that you find profound statements to be amusing. Maybe you should take them more seriously, so that your own illogic and lack of facts wouldn't make you look so bad.

Quote

Why don't you stop talking for the entire US in the regards of beeing fully armed?

Can you point to a message from me where I've advocated that everyone should be armed? No, I didn't think so. (See my above statement about illogic and lack of facts.) What I argue for is the right to be armed for those that choose to do so. I don't try to put any gun in the hands of anyone who doesn't want one. Likewise, I want the same consideration in reverse: I don't want someone who hates guns telling me that I can't choose to have one. It's all about the personal freedom to choose. And that view is supported by our Constitution.

Quote

When were you on the British islands lately?

(See my above statement about illogic.)

[miked10270 0]

Quote

Do you mean to suggest that being unarmed reduces your chances of being shot?

Go on, I double-dog-dare you.

Actually, yes! (Within the native British culture) an armed perpetrator facing unarmed opposition would tend at first to threaten with his firearm to gain compliance rather than use the firearm. Faced with armed opposition then the percieved danger increases and pre-emptive use of a firearm would be far more likely.

But keep going.
Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

>Do you mean to suggest that being unarmed reduces your chances
>of being shot?

Being unarmed dramatically decreased the chances of being shot with your own gun.

That's one side of the equation, and deals only with his own gun, but not a gun from any other source.

Now, what about the other side of the equation? Does being an unarmed cop, increase or decrease the chances of the officer being injured or killed while on the job?

Go back and study that FBI web site for police officers killed and assaulted. Remember, only four officers were killed with their own guns last year. How many officers saved their lives with their firearms that same year?

If the number of saves is greater than four, then in balance, guns served a much greater good.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

You are telling British citizens how their police "properly (??)" should be armed, you tell a Brit not to talk on the behalf of the rest of British citizens. Why don't you stop talking for the entire US in the regards of beeing fully armed?

The original poster invited comments on the question of arming British police. So JR is welcome to do his thing.

[nacmacfeegle 0]

So we have two British police officers, and a whole pile of Brits here saying they don't want to see an armed force. I was discussing this very subject in my local with two Sergeants and a beat bobby, last night, they don't want to see routine arming of the constabulary either.

So what are we arguing about?

I don't want to see the US police disarmed, and I really don't want to deprive John Rich of his weapons either.
I'm happy with the status quo.
Sheesh I realy haven't missed this eternal banging of the heads against the wall.............THe Colonial Cousins are happy with their set of rules, the Imperial Snobs are happy with theirs, the cultures are different, but similar, lets leave it at that.
Feck the guns, lets jump and drink beer.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[Stumpy 256]

Quote

First of all, America has five times the population of England, so you can't compare raw numbers. If you reduced that number by four-fifths to match the population for a per-capita comparison, America would have only about 12 per year.

Concerning the claim that only two officers were previously killed in 12 years in England prior to this most recent murder, I question that info. The Police Memorial Trust shows 17 officers killed in England in the last 10 years. And if you add Ireland, the number jumps up 7 more.
Source: Police Memorial

Ok, so 12 per year in the US in 10 years is 120 and the uk has had 17

Still a big difference whether you compare RAW figures or per capita......

If you are a police officer you are therefore more than 7 times as likely to get shot in the US where you do have a gun as opposed to the UK, where you don't.

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"The Police Memorial Trust shows 17 officers killed in England in the last 10 years. And if you add Ireland, the number jumps up 7 more.
Source: Police Memorial "

The memorial page you linked to doesn't list the cause of death, but it does include all of the deaths of officers serving in the UK. You are assuming they all died as a result of shootings, also if you want to add in a separate country, like say Ireland, thats about as meaningful as including say Columbian police officer's deaths in with those numbers from the US.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[noluckned 0]

Arming the everyday bobby will also have the effect of making them more intimidating and therefore less approachable, when that is not the image they need to promote.

The (British) public will be even less likely to co-operate with an armed officer than with a "harmless" unarmed bobby on the beat.

Arming Englands police will in effect up the stakes of the game and the response of criminals(who are not known to be the most rational types to start with) will be to arm themselves too. In short if the police where to carry weapons we can expect that the overall number of firearm related injuries and deaths will increase dramatically.

Look I like to shoot guns....but not at people. I am still in favour of a world without firearms, but not naive enough to believe it is a viable option.

*Disclaimer*
The views expressed in the above post may or may not be the result of drunkeness or temporary insanity and should only rarely be construed as the views of the poster himself

[mr2mk1g 10]

Quote

The memorial page you linked to doesn't list the cause of death, but it does include all of the deaths of officers serving in the UK. You are assuming they all died as a result of shootings

I've already posted the figures you ask for. There were 2 fatal shootings in the last 10 years. The last one prior to the shooting which prompted this thread was by a visiting American. This one appears to have been committed by a Somali asylum seeker.

Adding in Ireland as JR wishes is rather retarded as it runs contrary to his argument. The police in Ireland are all routinely armed; many not just with pistols but also with sub machine guns or long arms too. There however, deaths are evidently much more common when viewed in relation to the population size.

(ps the actual figure is 15 police deaths in the last 10 years. JR has misquoted the figure (including the most recent shooting). Of those 9 were killed in road traffic incidents classified as homicides. That leaves you with 6 in 10 years who died from actual assaults).

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"I've already posted the figures you ask for. "

Yep, I saw it.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[kallend 1,651]

Quote

Quote

Want to compare statistics of armed police in the USA getting shot vs unarmed police in the UK getting shot? Go on, I double-dog-dare you.

Do you mean to suggest that being unarmed reduces your chances of being shot?

Go on, I double-dog-dare you.

And aren't you one of those always crying about how any comparisons between England and the U.S. are invalid? Or does that only apply when the statistics don't go your way?

Appears you are wrong on all counts here, John.

Not only are unarmed UK police shot at a lower rate than armed US police, but also I am NOT "crying" that any comparisons are invalid. I have in the past quoted the USDoJ, the FBI, the UK Home Office and the Australian Govt. in saying that comparisons for crimes OTHER THAN HOMICIDE are invalid. I have made this statement on many times in response to your diatribes, and you can search for them at your leisure. If you disagree, go whine to the FBI.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[ReBirth 0]

Quote

Ive had to defend myself in a couple of bad situations too BUT I WOULDNT WANT TO BE ARMED. I wouldnt want the resulting actions on my conscience. And for that matter, some of the people I wouldnt want to see armed. They are bad enough with a can of pepper spray.

And besides, shooting someone.... It really isnt worth the paperwork.

You'd rather be dead? I don't get it.

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

If you are a police officer you are therefore more than 7 times as likely to get shot in the US where you do have a gun as opposed to the UK, where you don't.

The problem that you, kallend, and others seem to be having is that you attribute this difference to the guns alone. That's false. Correlation does not automatically equal causation.

The British also have bad teeth compared to Americans - is that due to unarmed cops?

[christelsabine 1]

The British also have bad teeth compared to Americans - is that due to unarmed cops?

[Tinker 0]

Let's face it to arm the British police would be like leading lambs to the economic roundabout...

It's never going to happen not because of any ideas of do they need them or not! but because the british government would then have to buy guns that actually work (not like the ones we sent to Iraq) and then train them all to use the damn things!

They'd probably spend more on paper work worrying about whether to get guns than actually doing anything about it

[ViperPilot 0]

Well that's the info I was looking for. If 80% feel they don't need them, then fine, it's their decision. I realize violent crime is lower in Britain, I personally would just rather have a gun just in case, but if they don't want...well different strokes for different folks I suppose.

[miked10270 0]

Quote

Perhaps there should be a weight comparison with the Americans? Same BS.

Actually NO!!!! The median American Law Enforcement Officer is some 68% heavier than his British counterpart... Which IS directly linked to the relative rates of doughnut consumption & time spent in a patrol car! From first-hand observations I suspect the German Polizei of suffering from a similar "Bratwurst-syndrom"?

[being serious] One wonders if the British Police resistance to being armed is rooted in some perverse pride in being unarmed & untrained in firearms use? While there are 2 other forces which are "not routinely armed" (Republic of Ireland & New Zealand) their officers are in fact trained in firearms use. [/being serious]

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[christelsabine 1]

Quote

Quote

Perhaps there should be a weight comparison with the Americans? Same BS.

Actually NO!!!! The median American Law Enforcement Officer is some 68% heavier than his British counterpart... Which IS directly linked to the relative rates of doughnut consumption & time spent in a patrol car! From first-hand observations I suspect the German Polizei of suffering from a similar "Bratwurst-syndrom"?

No Bratwurst-Syndrom! You need glasses, nom de dieu!
Our Polizei is well trained, taller than 175 cm, blue eyed, blond and and.. yes, and fully armed! Yeah! Fully armed! I never ever saw a fat one, really They are athletic. That's it.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[ReBirth 0]

Well, there's something to that genetic purification after all, eh? And we all thought Hitler was just nuts.

[christelsabine 1]

Quote

Well, there's something to that genetic purification after all, eh? And we all thought Hitler was just nuts.

Hey, ReBirthy, my little one, Hitler was an Austrian....

dudeist skydiver # 3105