"For The Same Reason I Carry a Reserve"

[Sneakerz 0]

Good evening everyone, I am a fairly new member to this website, I haven't initiated a post yet, however I have replied to a few. I mostly like to read what everyone else has to say, even if I don't agree with it. It's always good to at least try to see the other side of the coin.

There is always a BUT, I absolutly love the fact that this is a free county and we are allowed to state our opinions about anything at anytime no matter our position, BUT I really cannot stand when these opinions are taken to extremes especially by organized groups such as PETA, ELF, VPC (Violence Policy Center-anti-NRA group), ACLU, etc.

Lets go with the topic of gun ownership. Seeing how I havent been here that long, and I didnt do searches just to see how many times this has been brought up but it is a topic that I am very, I guess you could say, passionate about. I am a gun owner, I am a very active shooter (upwards of 500 rounds a week), I have a conceal and carry permit and I more often then not carry. How many people have I shot? ZERO. How many people have my friends who carry shot? Zero. What got me started on this was last weekend when I went to pay for my food at the DZ restaurant, the server noticed that I had what looked like 2 drivers liscenses in my wallet (FLs CWP looks like a DL) She then saw that it was a Conceal Permit. And it became evident very quickly that she was anti-gun when she asked "Why do you want to carry a gun?" I started to try to explain my answer but of course, it was like talking to an extreme left-wing democrat, you might as well be talking to a brick wall. This is why I carry a gun-

I am going to start my explanation with a question to you, Why do we carry a reserve? You can still skydive with out on (NOT legally of course) it's added weight, takes up space, and costs money to have re-packed. PAIN IN THE ASS. But, it is a tool that saves lives all the time. Much better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it. Granted, not everone has to carry a gun, it is your choice. I chose to carry because, one, I think that I am mentally capable of safely handling that tool, and would have to ability to use that tool to save my life or someone elses if I deemed it necessary to do so, hopefully I will never have to use that tool for anything else other than target practice. One of the things that this server said to me was, "If I was ever in a life threatening situation, I know enough to talk or get my way out." I am sorry, but that is an extremely naive idea and extremely unrealistic in this day and age. Case in point, in a small city south of Daytona Beach a few years ago, A father and his daughter had checked into a hotel. (he had a conceal permit and was carrying at the time) Shortly after the got into the room there was a knock on the door and when he opened it, he was looking down the barrel of a revolver. The two suspects pushed him back into the room onto the bed, one grabbed his daughter and tried forcing her into the bathroom. What they didnt know, is that the father had his .45 under his pillow on the bed, the first split second that the guy who was watching the father looked away, the father grabbed his gun, shot both of the guys, killing one and critically injuring the other. How the hell are you going to talk your way out of that one? Any realistic ideas? I didnt think so. (the father was not charged with anything) There are many more stories out there like that too. What these anti-gun activists groups such as the VPC NEVER tell you are how often weapons are used to save lives. Contrary to their misconstrued beleifs, very few people who own or posses guns are not crazed maniacs that wnat to do nothing but go out and start shooting people. Just because you decide not to take advantage of all tools possible to have that last chance (just like a reserve) to save my life or someone elses. Just because you are afraid of guns, dislike guns, or dont want to own one yourself, why do you think you should have the right to take mine and every other LEGAL gun owners weapon away? Is it because, in your mind, guns kill people? Don't forget it still takes someone to make the descision to pull the trigger. Also, in comparison with the number of people who own guns, to the number of people who are killed by them, VERY low percentage. Much lower than the statistic of the number of skydivers who are killed compared to the total number of skydivers. Do you think that the government should make skydiving illegal? After all, it is something that we only do for fun and it kills people. Or how about people dying in car wrecks? Or those killed by repeat drunk drivers, wait, those repeat offenders are helped out of jail and back into the drivers seat by the same left wing officials most of you anti-gunners vote for. (resaon number one why not to vote for someone just because of one or two strong beleifs you have) Dont forget Ted Kennedy from Mass.(D-senator) , his car has killed more people than all of my guns or any of my friends guns put togather.

I want you anti-gunners to understand that I absolutly respect your opinion about guns and that you do not like them (or scared of them). But you must remember, there are just as many people out there who think skydiving should be illegal because we do nothing but try to kill ourselves out there. What do you anti-gunner skydivers tell those anti-skydiver people? Is it, "Thats why we take 2 parachutes", or " Its not as dangerous as the media plays it up to be", I don't know but that sounds extrememly close to my argument to you about guns. Also remember this, even though you chose not to own a gun, someone else with a gun (might not even be a cop) could save your ass one day. I would take the shot to protect anyone, even if I didnt know you. Even if I did know you and five minutes before we had an argument about gun ownership, i would still take the shot to protect you. The way I look at it, I am capable and willing to carry, and knowning that, if the situation ever arised where I could have or should have interveined and didn't, or couldnt, I would not be able to live with myself. Even if it becomes illegal to own one day, I would still rather be judged by 12 than carried by six. Even if i have to tell my story with an orange jumpsuit on from behind plexi-glass, at least I am alive to tell my story, or I am able to live with myself because I saved some other innocent ones life. You should always do whatever is possible to better life for ALL, not just yourself.

Remember, people who use guns illegally are possesing them illegally. Taking guns away from the law abiding citizens is not going to do anything to stop someone who was going to illegally obtain a weapon in the first place. Think out of the box people, the media lies and glorifies falacies, you see that with stories about skydiving accidents. We carry not just to protect ourselves, we carry to help keep life better for all.


Just as a sidenote, there was a law that was recently passed here in FL called the "Do not back down" law. Anti-gun groups took this law way out of context and started to publish pamphlets to foreign countries and travel agencies giving them false warnings saying things like " dont go to florida on vacation because if you get into and argument with a local they are legally allowed to kill you" or "Dont look a local in the eyes because you could upset them and they will kill you". This is absolute bull crap. That new law just allows us to meet force with force. i.e. If we are confronted, we do not have to back down or attempt to run away before we respond (not just with a gun either) this even protects you if you are in a bar and someone starts a fight with you. You do not have to turn around and run away. It does not meant we can take out a gun and shoot you because you picked a fight with me unless I can justify the use of lethal force by being able to articulte that I was afraid for my life, or someone elses, or to stop the commision of a forcible felony (rape, kidnapping, robbery, etc)

Anyway, sorry about the long first post, hope you enjoyed, and blue skies!!!!

---------------
"Once you find a job that you like, you never have to work another day in your life"

[ViperPilot 0]

You put it well sneakerz, just be ready for the shitstorm. Anyways, I'm going to go practice on my talking-myself-out-of-a-bad-situation tactics, I feel they'll get me through the next 7-11 shootout/robbery.

[rushmc 18]

I remember over 10 years ago, when Florida was one of the states that was making it legal to carry. The retoric said the Florida was going to become the "gunshine state". Texas was another at the time and it was going back to the wild wild west.
I also remeber that the anti gunners had done a poll of texas county sherifs about conceal carry. It was a long time ago but if memory serves me, about 60% were in favor of it. After 10 years someone went back and redid the pole. 100% minus one thought it was a good thing. 1 officer even told a story that basicly said that if a civilian had not had a gun he would have been killed.

Other stats, showing that those that have CCW's are a more law abiding portion of the population and the last time I saw the data, no officer had been killed or shot at by person with a CCW and less than one half of 1% of those getting a CCW had lost it for some reson or another.

I think that one little 4 word part of you post nailed the reaction to CCW better than anything else "(or scared of them)" because the stats don't support thier position.

Great post by the way and welcome!

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Wopelao 0]

Well you owe for your first thread, and also you missed the "I will outrun the felons" option. Seems like all antigunners are really track runners.

Good post.

[Channman 2]

Second Amendment Sisters, otherwise known as (SAS) is a growing womens group that organizes gun safety and self protection training. NRA is catering more to women, do in part they are becoming a larger part of the organizations membership by offering large get togethers for gun safety and new designer clothing lines tailored for women.

There is a large group of momma's packing heat.

[popsjumper 2]

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...There is a large group of momma's packing heat.

Tell me about it...one time a girl pulled two 38's on me...then she pulled a gun.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[noluckned 0]

With the proper training and equiped with a reasonable mindset anybody should be allowed to carry a weapon.

Sadly it is the unbalanced among us who give weapons their bad name. The idea of disarming the world might be noble, but it is also extremely naive.It is far too late to disarm and in fact the only ones agreeing to hand in their weapons would be the law-abiding, no criminal would do it.
I have talked myself out of a situation where a gun was being waved in my face, but the guy was not a psycho killer. I have also been stabbed 5 times by a robber and I wished I was carrying then let me tell you, cause the guy was out to kill me and I was forced to defend myself with fists and feet, I got cut up but lived. If I had had a weapon on me I would not automatically have shot to kill either but it would have saved me like 30+ stiches....I would have had the first 5 anyway cause he jumped me.

The only provisions I would like to see are that permit holders be required to undergo a proficiancy test(perhaps annually) and some kind of training in dealing with situation without immediatly dealing out lead.

Thats all.

*Disclaimer*
The views expressed in the above post may or may not be the result of drunkeness or temporary insanity and should only rarely be construed as the views of the poster himself

[kallend 1,853]

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Sadly it is the unbalanced among us who give weapons their bad name

So what process would you suggest to prevent the criminal and the unbalanced from getting guns and thereby giving gun owners a bad name?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[diverborg 0]

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So what process would you suggest to prevent the criminal and the unbalanced from getting guns and thereby giving gun owners a bad name?

So what process would you suggest to prevent the criminals from keeping their guns while we disarm the innocent civilians?

Before you get upset, I do not know your point of view completely on this subject, just making a point that is not just the gunowners alone that have to come up with the solutions to an impossible situation. If you have a solution then your argument will hold more water.
As far as my answer to your question, we already have made it illegal for these people to obtain, posess, or even touch these weapons, yet I don't think anyone is gonna argue with me that they still have them. So what good is it gonna do to throw the innocent civilians in with the gun ban. Seems like a recipe for disaster to me. Wow wouldn't it be great if all the criminals decided to turn in all their guns along with normal people if the govt issued a ban on them. Lets be realistic.

[pirana 0]

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Sadly it is the unbalanced among us who give weapons their bad name

So what process would you suggest to prevent the criminal and the unbalanced from getting guns and thereby giving gun owners a bad name?

My concern exactly. I'm not purely anti-gun, but we have a real problem with access. We need systems that keep guns out of the hands of the wrong people. Strictly personal opinion, but I don't think making access easier is a viable solution.

My leaning would be to make it difficult, fault on the side of conservative issuance, to get a permit or buy a gun (and even to own one). I'm strongly in favor of extensive background checks, relatively low threshholds for denial, relatively long waiting periods, and very stiff penalties for violations.

Any crime over a petty misdemeanor - no permit. Got a history of DWI, slapping your wife around, getting in barfights, etc - no gun for you. Such standards would not have allowed that Hmong maniac to murder the folks in the woods here in Wisconsin. There were several calls to his house for domestic violence - why the hell was that asshole allowed to own a gun. He was quite demonstrably not capable of controlling himself.

I had a cousin that served in Vietnam. Flew an EVAC chopper. Shot down 7 times, came home decorated to the hilt. A true hero. Working hard to get his H&C business off the ground, on his way home one day, stops in a bar for a 6-pak (Illinois) and some drunken bar-brawling idiot misread a situation and shoots him dead. He basically executed my cousin in cold blood because in his drunken stupor he thought he heard an insult. Pathetic.

I'm not Draconian about it, but something has got to change. Too many of the wrong people have access, and they find it too easy to kill.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[Channman 2]

Tell me about it...one time a girl pulled two 38's on me...then she pulled a gun.

As they say, "seen one 38 you've seen two".

[rehmwa 2]

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relatively long waiting periods,

but, but, I'm MAD right NOW

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[JohnRich 4]

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long waiting periods

Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA), Aug. 2, 2000:

Homicide and Suicide Rates Associated With
Implementation of the Brady Handgun
Violence Prevention Act

Jens Ludwig, PhD; Philip J. Cook, PhD

Context:
In February 1994, the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act
established a nationwide requirement that licensed firearms dealers observe a waiting period and initiate a background check for handgun sales. The effects of this act have not been analyzed.

Objective:
Some gun purchasers may have intended to shoot themselves or someone else and changed their minds during the 5-day waiting period mandated by the Brady Act. Some of those with felony records may have had no specific intent, but because they were stopped from purchasing a handgun by the background check were discouraged from obtaining one and hence were not in a position to shoot someone later when the occasion arose. The result of the Brady act may thus be to reduce shootings, including firearm suicides and homicides, by adult handgun buyers.

Our evaluation compared homicide and suicide rates before and after the Brady Act went into effect to determine whether specific changes in these rates were associated with implementation of this policy.

Design and Setting:
Analysis of vital statistics data in the United States for 1985
through 1997 from the National Center for Health Statistics.

Main Outcome Measures:
Total and firearm homicide and suicide rates per 100,000 adults, for age group 21 years and older, and proportion of homicides and suicides resulting from firearms were calculated by state and year. Controlling for population age, race, poverty and income levels, urban residence, and alcohol consumption, the 32 "treatment" states directly affected by the Brady Act requirements were compared with the 18 "control" states and the District of Columbia, which had equivalent legislation already in place.

Results:
Changes in rates of homicide and suicide for treatment and control
states were not significantly different, except for firearm suicides
among persons aged 55 years or older.

Conclusions:
Based on the assumption that the greatest reductions in fatal violence would be within states that were required to institute waiting periods and background checks, implementation of the Brady Act appears to have been associated only with reductions in the firearm suicide rate for persons aged 55 years or older. We find some signs of an offsetting increase in non-gun suicides, consistent with theories of "weapon substitution." Our analyses provide no evidence that implementation of the Brady Act was associated with a reduction in homicide rates or overall suicide rates.

[rehmwa 2]

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Results: Changes in rates of homicide and suicide for treatment and control states were not significantly different, except for firearm suicides among persons aged 55 years or older.

As people get smarter and older, soon even the older people will just leave the gun store and step right into traffic, thus simplifying the whole process.

I am against your recommendation to institute long waiting periods for gun purchases for people over 55. That's only 6 years away for me.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[JohnRich 4]

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I'm strongly in favor of... relatively low threshholds for denial...
Any crime over a petty misdemeanor - no permit.

What about a speeding ticket?
Reckless driving?
Parking in a handicap space?
Shoplifting?
Youthful indiscretion?
Bounced check?

Would you apply this same criteria to a person's free speech and voting rights?

[Nightwing 0]

Howzit,

Welcome to da threads!!!
Good argument dude!
Those same anti-gunners will be the first to thank you when you save their ass one day from a "bad man with a gun, knife etc.."

Drags me down, like some sweet gravity...
Nightwing has stirred, and taken to flight...the silence is over, he's shattered the night!!!

[dropoutdave 0]

What about a speeding ticket? Not really a reflection on ones character so much.

Reckless driving? Wanker - don't give them a gun.

Parking in a handicap space? Wanker - don't give them a gun.

Shoplifting? Wanker - don't give them a gun.

Youthful indiscretion? Eh?

Bounced check? Pfft.


Basically, don't give the wankers the guns.

------------------------------------------------------
May Contain Nut traces......

[Sneakerz 0]

I am surprised that I did not get a bigger argument from the anti-gunners. Maybe they just havent looked at this yet because I didnt put their sin word "GUN" in the title. Anyway, If a criminal wants to get a hold of a gun for an illegal purpose, he is not going to obtain the weapon through legal means anyway. (purpose of waiting period out the window) That goes the same with the person who really wants to commit suicide, they will somehow find a gun, or some other way to kill themselves. Besides, get a Florida CWP, you dont have to go through the waiting period, even for a pistol if you have one. and for all you you out-of-staties, our permit is good in about 26 other states (give or take) and Florida issues them to non-residents.

The numbers show it, proof is in the pudding, guns are NOT the problem. YOu take guns away from the law abiding citizens, gun crimes and other crimes rise - dramatically. I say to the anti-gunners- "Grow up, don't be naive, and if you are going to make an opinion, make an educated one. Not one that is just based on the liberal media, or warped stats from the VPC. People who are afraid of skydiving just don't skydive. People who are afrain of guns, just dont get one. Leave us and our constitutional rights to protect us, and possibly yourselves, alone. Thank you."

Have a goodnight- blue skies

---------------
"Once you find a job that you like, you never have to work another day in your life"

[Alias 0]

http://www.dfw.com/multimedia/dfw/news/archive/1109Call/index.html

Love it!

Carpe Diem

[lucia 0]

Havent seen this before because I dont check this that often. Your essay is based on a comparason between skydiving and gun use. Well I guess my friend that you dont get the point here. The difference between a person that skydives and one that carrys a gun is that I cant kill another with my reserve and the other one can kill, not only one, but many more with his toy.
Skydiving can kill me (ok maybe others if the plane crashes , or if I freefall into someones house... but it is my life the one thats in danger)
If I had to sit down to drink a beer with someone that skydives or someone that carrys guns I would feel much safer with someone that has a rig on instead of a gun.
Where I maybe could understand the carrying of a gun is if everybody would carry it, and that is what I guess is the tendency in your country. I personally think it is a shame. Not feeling safe without a gun is from my point of view, sad.
Anyway guys keep the guns away and lets skydive!!!!!!
I apologize for my english , it is not my first language.
And by the way it is a repeated subject but I like it.

Lucy in the Sky
http:\\www.skydivelillo.com

[JohnRich 4]

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I personally think it is a shame. Not feeling safe without a gun is from my point of view, sad.

Is it sad that you can't feel safe driving a car without wearing your seat belt?

Is it sad that you don't feel your home is safe from fire without an extinguisher?

Is it sad that you don't feel safe skydiving without a backup parachute?

[Wopelao 0]

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...that you dont get the point here. The difference between a person that skydives and one that carrys a gun is that I cant kill another with my reserve and the other one can kill, not only one, but many more with his toy.

I think you can. A poor maintained rig in a big way, flat or FF, can be very dangerous, and it could always happen.

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Where I maybe could understand the carrying of a gun is if everybody would carry it, and that is what I guess is the tendency in your country.

That is your choice and your opinion. I respect that, yet, you don't take into consideration the following, that there is training available for those who like to shoot, your opinion is also excluding one very old time pass time-survival skill, Hunting. Is there room in there for it? Curious to find out you opinion.

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I personally think it is a shame. Not feeling safe without a gun is from my point of view, sad.
Anyway guys keep the guns away and lets skydive!!!!!!

Why? I rather not skydive with someone that has a hung over, but maybe it's just me..

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I apologize for my english , it is not my first language.
And by the way it is a repeated subject but I like it.

You are doing just fine!

[downwardspiral 0]

I really do enjoy guns. When I was 11 my dad bought a Ruger 9mm for home protection. First thing he did was take me to the shooting range to teach me gun safety. From then on we went shooting 3-4 times a year. When I was 16 I joined my highschool shooting team. We shot twice a week and competed on Saturdays. After graduation I joined the Marines. Imagine what "toys" they trained us to play with. 6 weeks ago I took my current girlfriend shooting on our first date. It was her first time and she loved it.

So I've spent my life around guns and to this day I am very uncomfortable when some pulls one of their "toys" out for show and tell. I usually have to ask if its unloaded and then request to visually inspect its unloadedness, which is sad. Why is it people make me ask?



Anyhow, a lifetime of guns/shooting and not a single incident occured.

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[ViperPilot 0]

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Why is it people make me ask?

Because people are idiots, especially ones who just got their first gun and know nothing. Those are the guys I just stay away from.

[Sneakerz 0]

My "Essay" as you like to call it, is not BASED on a comparison between skydiving and guns. I just used that as one point in it to drive the point home that peoples argument for not wanting guns to be available to the public is an opinion that I beleive is influenced by the same source that makes others not want us to skydive..... The mostly (not all) liberal media

I am not trying to say anything near the fact that a person carrying a gun is the same thing as carrying a reserve.

Read the inital post all the way through before you start to make assumptions. YOu carry a reserve to protect your life, more weight, more room, cost for repack, etc. I carry a gun to protect my life too, and any other innocent person out there who has their rights infringed upon by some thug who thinks he has a right to rape, kidnap, rob, or kill them. that takes effot too- money, practice to be proficient, weight to carry, putting up with anti-gunners crap. But you know what, I love putting up with that crap, thats one of the things I love about this place- you are free to have your opinions and not worry about being thrown in jail.

I like, wether or not they have the same opinion as me, everyone. (even if you are totally anti-gun or american etc) In my mind you all still have the right to life, liberty, freedom, and happiness.

Anyway, Happy jumping and Blue Skies!!

---------------
"Once you find a job that you like, you never have to work another day in your life"