San Francisco Gun Ban

[crwtom 0]

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In fact, guns have been specifically designed and developed
to kill effortlessly. Parachutes have been designed to do the
opposite.

The purpose of a parachute is to save your life.

without harming anyone else.

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The purpose of having a gun for self defense is to save your life.

No, the main purpose and design is to incpacitate and/or kill
another person or animal.

In some particualr circumstances someone may use this feature
to defend their own life (mostly though as a reult of someone
else will ill intentions also having a gun) Even in such particular
instances there will be at least one person badly hurt or killed.
This is not heppening with a parachute.

Fundametally different from a parachute also that there are a
gazillion other ways to use a gun besides those phantasies of
honest people having to defend themselves against some army
of evildoers.
OTOH there's only one way to use a parachute, and you'd need a
lot of imagination to see how you can use a parachute to inflict
devastating harm onto other people.

Since the beginning of time guns have been designed for one
singular purpose - to kill. And there are endlessly many
motivations and situaions to do so, and anything that is possible
will happen. In reality the taunted scenario of the honest citizen
defending his life against a malicious intruder out to inflict
personal harm is likely to be a very small percentage of how guns
are actuallty use.

My guess are a huge portion of gun related death and injury
comes from domestic disputes, as well as similar sitaution (such
as teaed high school students) where people feel their feelings
have been hurt and they have to get even. No need for them to
have a criminal profile or history before they start shooting.

But also the use of guns in other crimes like robbery in the US
likley exceeds that of other developed by orders of magintude.

Add to that innumerous accidental deaths, suicides, and the like.

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Why punish the innocent for the sins of the guilty?

How do you know who are the sinner and who are the guilty in
a couple of months from now. Are you GOD or the Tom Cruise
character from Minority Report? Prior crimial records do crap
to predict domestic and similar disputes, and even for the strict
crimial there's always a first time.

To understand the broader impact and threat of loose gun laws
it is useful to step out of a narrow individual perspective. Such
regulations control the general level of availability of guns and
level of acceptance of guns as part of normal life. If these levels
in the general population are high it will seem also to many
individuals much more tempting and easy to solve just about any
problem at the trigger of a gun.

As usual also main question is cirumvented - if not for gun laws,
why does the US have astronomically higher homicide rates than
other countries with comparable socioeconoic structure but stricter
gun laws. (even conservative number talk about 15-times
higher rates).

In terms of public policy the main questions should be are more
innocent people saved as a result of being able to defend
themselves with guns, or are more innocent people killed
as a result of the sheer volume, availability and acceptance of
guns.

IMO the former scenario may apply as common place in the Frontier
days, in war times, in Hollywood movies, and perhaps the most
remote and isolated premises out there. In a modern, piecetime,
largely urbanized society with a solid infrastructure I would find
the latter much much more likely.

Cheers, T

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Fear causes hesitation, and hesitation will cause your worst fears to come true

[crwtom 0]

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If it's okay to ban guns to stop accidental gun deaths, then it should be okay to ban parachutes to stop accidental skydiving fatalities. Right?

That makes sense only you can guranatee me that the only deadly use or abuse with guns are accidentaly deaths, and these are the deaths of only the gun operators .

But you can't ! ... not even remotely!

Cheers, T

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Fear causes hesitation, and hesitation will cause your worst fears to come true

[SudsyFist 0]

So, does this...

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why should I, or anyone, be deprived of a life saving tool just because others use it for a different purpose?

...then only apply with the following constraint?

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Ok...more specifically....fire arms. Not all forms of weapons.

[SudsyFist 0]

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The problem with your argument for grenades and claymores is this: this are weapons designed to kill large numbers of people indiscriminately over a wide area. Guns only kill those which you aim at. Thus, a grenade or mine is a poor tool with which to defend yourself from a criminal, because it could kill a large number of innocent people in the process. A gun will most likely kill only the person who is causing the threat.

I see your point when the situation is defense against a single criminal; however, what about situations when there are a group of criminals? What if I'm outgunned, outnumbered?

If there's a group of criminals charging my front door, I'd be willing to bet that I'd be much more effective at eliminating the threat by lobbing a cooked-off frag grenade at them than switching my selector switch from safe to semi/burst and attempting to take down each member of the group with bullets, particularly if they're also armed. And my shrapnel is a lot less likely to cause bodily harm to unintended targets than stray 5.56 balls.

[ReBirth 0]

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As usual also main question is cirumvented - if not for gun laws,
why does the US have astronomically higher homicide rates than
other countries with comparable socioeconoic structure but stricter
gun laws.

As usual, you're ignoring the fact that other countries have comparable gun laws with lower homicide rates.

The US has higher per capita income than most other countries and higher homicide rates. Maybe it's money that makes us murder.

Can guns be used to kill? Yes. Are there more guns in the US than many other places? Yes. Do guns make people murder? Is that really what you are suggsting? That an inanimate object is the CAUSE of murder? Or maybe the CAUSE is something else, and guns are used in that cause. Doesn't that seem a little more logical? And if that's the case, then the cause should be addressed, otherwise one tool can eaily be replaced with another if the cause still exists.

I challenge you to find another country with the same socio-economic conditions of being populated entirely by immigrants with all different ethnic backgrounds and cultures, with a large population consisting of a recently freed enslaved race (200 years is NOT enough time to erase the effects of that), the largest disparity between rich and poor that exists in the world, and the highest rate of incarceration of any modern-western nation.

Seems to me there are lot of things different about the US than other countries. And they all seem more likely candidates to be the cause of murder than the existence of inanimate tools.

In other words, the old cliche, guns don't kill people, people do. Unless and until you address the reason that people kill more in the US than most anywhere else (and it's NOT guns) then removing the tool isn't going to do shit except maybe penalize the innocent who no longer have parity with the murderous criminals of society that will continue to exist.

[IanHarrop 37]

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As usual, you're ignoring the fact that other countries have comparable gun laws with lower homicide rates.

I am having a hard time finding an example of another country with comparable gun laws and lower homicide rates. Can you provide an example?

"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

[ReBirth 0]

switzerland.

[crwtom 0]

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switzerland.

I went to length to explain that Switzerland is nowhere near
a reasonable comparison.

As I said - if wealth and crime rate in the US would be anywhere
near those in Switzerland there'd be a point of discussion.

But there is none.

Cheers, T

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Fear causes hesitation, and hesitation will cause your worst fears to come true

[ReBirth 0]

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As I said - if wealth and crime rate in the US would be anywhere
near those in Switzerland there'd be a point of discussion.

That's the point. The crime rate is higher here with just as many guns. You are trying to claim that guns are the cause of murders. Switzerland is a valid comparison as it relates to gun laws. If guns were the cause, they'd have the same problems. Obviosly it must be something else tht is the cause.

[SudsyFist 0]

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So, does this...

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why should I, or anyone, be deprived of a life saving tool just because others use it for a different purpose?

...then only apply with the following constraint?

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Ok...more specifically....fire arms. Not all forms of weapons.

I'll take the silence as a, "Yes."

[crwtom 0]

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Switzerland is a valid comparison as it relates to gun laws. If guns were the cause, they'd have the same problems. Obviosly it must be something else tht is the cause.

no it's not - I cannot rewrite my arguments a dozen times.

go back and read

Cheers, T

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Fear causes hesitation, and hesitation will cause your worst fears to come true

[mnealtx 0]

Switzerland has the same amount of guns per capita than the U.S., or maybe more. If it were the guns, their murder rate per capita would be on a level with ours.

It AINT the guns... it's the societal differences. We've spent the last 15-20 years glorifying criminals in movies and in music...not to mention the drug culture and the problems it brings.

So, yeah.... I'm raising the bullshit flag on this one... you're going to have to come up with a LOT better argument.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kelpdiver 2]

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Fundametally different from a parachute also that there are a gazillion other ways to use a gun besides those phantasies of honest people having to defend themselves against some army of evildoers.

I can see from your profile that like me, you're in the 200lb+ class and therefore not really subject to the threat of being strong armed. Life is so much easier for us where there are easier targets nearby.

The rest of your post had so many grossly inaccurate assumptions, it seems pointless to try to resolve them all. Bad guys always have guns. Someone gets badly hurt in every DGU. Domestic disputes and non criminals are a large chunk of homicides. And your doozy, with absolutely no foundation, that more innocents are killed than saved.

[JohnRich 4]

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the taunted scenario of the honest citizen defending his life against a malicious intruder out to inflict personal harm is likely to be a very small percentage of how guns are actuallty use.

"Likely"? In other words, you don't even know for sure. Yet you've decided anyway that guns are bad. That doesn't do much for your credibility. Try again after you've done some research and have some facts.

As for honest citizens defending themselves with guns, here are some data points for you:

The KABR's "Operation Self Defense" files:
http://www.keepandbeararms.com/opsd/

The NRA's "Armed Citizen" files:
http://www.nraila.org/ArmedCitizen/Default.aspx

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My guess are a huge portion of gun related death and injury comes from domestic disputes...

"Guess"? Ditto my above comment.

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But also the use of guns in other crimes like robbery in the US likley exceeds that of other developed by orders of magintude.

'Likely"? This is getting boring.

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How do you know who are the sinner and who are the guilty in a couple of months from now... even for the strict crimial there's always a first time.

So no one should be trusted to own a gun because of what "might" happen? And we should treat everyone in society as if they are no better than a lowly criminal? My, what an ugly philosophical model for a society you have there.

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To understand the broader impact and threat of loose gun laws it is useful to step out of a narrow individual perspective. Such
regulations control the general level of availability of guns and level of acceptance of guns as part of normal life. If these levels in the general population are high it will seem also to many individuals much more tempting and easy to solve just about any problem at the trigger of a gun.

"It will seem"? BORING!

You're judging with your heart rather than with facts and logic. And your heart is wrong. There are more guns than ever now in circulation. And with 35+ states issuing concealed handgun licenses, there are more citizens than ever walking the streets armed. Yet, despite what your heart tells you, the FBI says that crime rates are at a 40-year low, not seen since the 1960's.

So, you see what happens when you look at facts? Your "guesses", "likelies" and "seems" are all proven to be bunk.

[rasmack 0]

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It AINT the guns... it's the societal differences.

One question. Do you mean to say that there is a greater inequality between people in the US than in Switzerland, or do you mean that the societies are different? The first possibility would seem to suggest that your society is inherently disposed towards greater levels of crime, whereas the second would imply that the Swiss for some reason can handle guns, while you can not

You believe (it appears to me) that with lots of crime you've got to have a gun around. I seem to see that only in a somewhat more... peaceful society is it a responsible action to have liberal gun laws. Oh well, I guess this is one of the cases where we should politely agree to disagree. Too bad we can't do it over a beer.

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[kelpdiver 2]

I think the drug war is a big difference here versus elsewhere in the world. The initial gun regulation focused on machine guns came during Prohibition when there was money to be had in alcohol, and many players looking to get that money. Now it's over pot and crack and meth instead.

Dount it covers all the difference, but a heck of a lot of it.

[ReBirth 0]

I've said that a billion times in here. The main cause of violent crime in this country is prohibition of narcotics, and keeping the jails full of narcotics offenders necessitating early release of violent criminals.

[JohnRich 4]

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Do you mean to say that there is a greater inequality between people in the US than in Switzerland, or do you mean that the societies are different? The first possibility would seem to suggest that your society is inherently disposed towards greater levels of crime, whereas the second would imply that the Swiss for some reason can handle guns, while you can not...

The Swiss are smaller and more homogeneous. They feel connected to each other, with a common country to defend.

America is vast, with large numbers of different types of people, many of whom feel disaffected from the nation. Another factor is that crime is concentrated mostly in large cities, and America has a whole lot of large cities compared to Switzerland.

But if you take your average American rural small-town community, I think it would compare fairly well with the Swiss.

[SudsyFist 0]

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But if you take your average American rural small-town community, I think it would compare fairly well with the Swiss.

The Swiss have tweakers, too?

[christelsabine 1]

The Swiss are smaller and more homogeneous. They feel connected to each other, with a common country to defend.

America is vast, with large numbers of different types of people, many of whom feel disaffected from the nation. Another factor is that crime is concentrated mostly in large cities, and America has a whole lot of large cities compared to Switzerland.

But if you take your average American rural small-town community, I think it would compare fairly well with the Swiss.

[txhoss 0]

All the arguing. Lets go back to the basics. I believe the founders of our country wrote a document that, over the last 200+ years, has proved to be one of the most forward thinking and timeless documents that has ever been written. They said in that ... "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." Period. They saw fit for us to have the right to keep arms. Perhaps that lattitude will not force us into a position that we have to repeat the past (or what they went through at the time tha forced them to wirte that.)

As for San Fran .... I have seen on documentaries of one other group that decided to make everyone register and keep such tabs on gun ownership. However it was difficult to understand the narration because it was in German. Read a little on the reasonable well known group called the Nazi's.

Have Rig will travel ...

[rasmack 0]

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The Swiss are smaller and more homogeneous. They feel connected to each other, with a common country to defend.

I take it you've never been there. Switzerland is a federation with no less than four different official languages...

I can assure you that there are vast differences from Graubünden to Geneva. The Swiss federal army was the price to pay for neutrality and independence from for example France.

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[GTAVercetti 0]

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As for San Fran .... I have seen on documentaries of one other group that decided to make everyone register and keep such tabs on gun ownership. However it was difficult to understand the narration because it was in German. Read a little on the reasonable well known group called the Nazi's.

DISCLAIMER: I am pro gun ownership.

I believe Jon Stewart had a great little segment about how a topic of debate is not TRULY profound until someone equates the problem to the Nazis or Hitler or 9/11.

Congratulations, you are that somoene.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[ReBirth 0]

Godwin's Law

[ReBirth 0]

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have seen on documentaries of one other group that decided to make everyone register and keep such tabs on gun ownership.

You can get a little more recent than that. Take a look at Chicago and New York City.