Being Recruited to the Right! Help!

[karenmeal 0]

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Good.

If nothing else I've found that discussion, honest discussion, about the Bible/religion (any religion, really) can be interesting. That is, of course, presuming that both sides are willing to actually listen to and respect the other.

Hell, in the long run, what's a few hours a month if it means a peaceful relationship with someone you love? It's nothing.

-
Jim

Exactly! Thats what I was kind of thinking. When we have these discussions he will allow me to talk about my point of view as much as I allow him to talk about his. If he were merely pushing his beliefs onto me and absolutely refusing to listen that would be one thing. But he is pushing his beliefs onto me and is willing to listen to my beliefs.

The more I think about it.. we are both going to be trying to respectfully "convert" the other. As an atheist, most religious people are appalled if I try to do something like that.

I feel like I will be keeping as open a mind as possible during the discussions. However, if he merely quotes bible verses to me, well, that certainly won't work. Could I write my thesis and cite only one source? I don't think so.

Anyways, Thank-you everyone for the links and suggestions about what to say and do.

-Karen

-- And as for the title of the thread, sorry, but I don't really distinguish between my brothers religion and his political views. Afterall, his church tells him how to vote. I realize there are many many exceptions of this within the envangelical community.. but my brother is not. I'm sure we'll be getting into over dubya soon too.

"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham

[Jimbo 0]

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Think Jehovah's Witness

Funny you mention that, my boss is a JW and we occasionally have a good discussion surrounding religion/the Bible.

Just like politics, there's kooks on both sides of the aisle, I think.

Edit: You wanna talk about fun, I used to share an office with a Born Again Christian, a JW who is rather high in the JW organization (my perception), and me, a middle of the road agnostic (I think). The fourth member of our team who had a cube down the hall was as athiest as they were relgious. Lots of good discussion back then, and you know what? Everybody got along. Those were the days.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[karenmeal 0]

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"Look, you know I don't believe, but you believe that God has the power to open my eyes. Very learned men have tried for years to prove the existence of God, and all of them have failed. There is no proof--belief is faith. You should realize that pushing any belief is going to turn someone off--it's just human nature, because everyone learns in their own way, in their own time. I don't mind if you pray for me, and perhaps if you focus your efforts on asking God to intervene instead of on trying to change my mind yourself, you'll have better results."

Now that sounds fairly wise. I will use that as my exit-excuse from the discussions when I get tired of them.

Thanks

-Karen

"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham

[ReBirth 0]

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I don't mind if you pray for me, and perhaps if you focus your efforts on asking God to intervene instead of on trying to change my mind yourself, you'll have better results."

That's a great response. If that doesn't work, than I don't think rationaly discussion is possible.

[ReBirth 0]

Yeah...I was actually friends with a group of JWs in high school. They used to sit together at lunch and noone else hung out with them. I knew a couple of them outside of school as neighbors and I'd have lunch and hang out with them. Obviously they're not evangelizing all the time. I was referring to the guys who come around knocking on your door trying to convert you. My friends weren't trying to convert me, but one time they showed up at our door with their parents wanting to.

Funny side story....My Dad was a spiritual Christian but not into organized religion. One day some 7th Day Adventists came to the door preaching. Their deal is something about only 144,000 pure soles getting into heaven or something like that. They were preaching that to my pop and he responded, "If there's a limit on how many people get into heaven, what are you doing recruiting, you're just ruining your own chances!"

[Airman1270 0]

To properly evaluate what you're brother is doing, you need some basic information. Before this can happen, you must agree on a method of communication that will allow for the exchange of information without you dismissing said exchange as "preaching", "prosyletizing", or some variation of "shoving xxxx down my throat."

I'll be brief. A good analogy would be a fire in a resort hotel. The fire is small and contained, for now, but will become lethal if you don't get out soon. Your brother has discovered this and is trying to let people know so they can make an informed decision to reconsider their current place in life and choose a path that will result in their being "saved."

The trouble is, they see no evidence of a fire, they like things the way they are, and they don't want to believe that a fire is possible. They're not being hard-headed; rather, they're being perfectly rational. If you can show them some proof they will consider it, but for now he can't prove it and they're getting sick of him talking about this every time they cross paths.

Your brother has a valid point. However, if he is a new Christian, he may be allowing his enthusiasm to interfere with his ability to understand your position (even though he himself held the same position for most of his life.)

He has done what Jesus asked: he told you about Him. If he wants to maintain his relationship with you and persuade you to consider the Gospel, he can do his part by praying for you and doing his best to grow in his faith without driving people away. One test is the ability to participate in a conversation with a non-Christian without peppering the talk with "Christianese" and frequent refernces to spiritual matters.

Of course, this works both ways. If you're in the habit of making unkind references to his faith and saying critical things, even when he didn't mention it first, he will be hurt, insulted, and defensive. It is not "preaching" when somebody offers Biblical information in response to someone else's misunderstanding.

(Example: Joe says "the Bible says it's okay to kill Jews." Bill says "No, it doesn't say that. In fact, Jesus said..." At this point many people would accuse Bill of "ramming religion down my throat", when all he was doing was responding to Joe's comments and correcting what is either 1) a misunderstanding, or 2) a deliberate effort to mischaracterize Christians and portray them as something they're not. It would be no different than if someone accused all skydivers of cheating death in low-pull contests, and you spoke up to clarify the matter.)

There is a reason Jesus is the most influential, most thoroughly researched person in all of recorded history. When you're ready, give Him a chance to prove Himself real to you. If you're curious you can begin by asking your brother what led to this change in his life. He can help by answering your questions and providing information in small doses.

Cheers,
Jon

[wmw999 2,177]

Wonderful, wonderful post. I hope it helps. Karen, maybe your brother can read an edited version of this thread.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Alias 0]

"Being Recruited to the Right! Help!"

I did not realize that you had to be on the "right" to be a Christian

I've met many from both sides.

and I agree that the post above is a very logical way of dealing with your issue.

Nice one!

Carpe Diem

[Channman 2]

Well written post. I think I learned something from it.

[rasmack 0]

I like your post. The problem arises when he shows up to warn about the fire, and all they see is a guy freaked out about the fire place in his room. Furthermore he was so busy getting out of his room that he didn't get dressed, and now we have him trying to convince the other guests that they should leave, while they try to get him dressed, so he doesn't catch pneumonia.

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[ReBirth 0]

Yeah...I read that post and the only thing I could think was.......but the fire is in the guy's imagination in the first place. That puts it in a totally different light.

[DrewGPM 0]

It doesn't have to be in his imagination...let try a different analogy.

Lets say a bunch of people tells you there is a bomb in your apartment building. Some of them you know, others you don't know. They show you drawings of what looks like a bomb and tell you stories about people who hung out with the guy that built the bomb. They don't know where it is or when it will go off...but they are sure there is a bomb in your building.

Some people will believe that and leave the building. Others will write it off as some crazy fools trying to scare you. You need proof before you pack up your life and leave.

You search for the bomb, but you do not see it.

For some people, that is enough for them to prove that there is no bomb. The bomb believers were wrong and you're listening to them. But the only way to confirm the existence of this bomb is to find it or have it explode. Without knowing when the bomb will go off, you have choice to make.

You could believe it's there. If you choose this, you have to decide what to do. You could pack up your stuff and leave the building, never to return for fear of the big bomb. OR you could move out, but stand outside the building and spread the word of this bomb. You know you have to do everything in your power to save your friends, your family and anyone else who decides to they want to move in to that building. But how far are you willing to go to convince others that this bomb is real? What if they don't believe your story? They think you're nuts and refuse to leave the building. Some may believe you and move out of the building. A few of them may choose to help you spread the word to the people who don't believe. In your mind, the non-believers are gonna die...how far do you go in your efforts to save them?

Some people will tell you the story, and let you decide. others will tackle you and do everything they can to keep you from going in to that building. The building owners will want set up next to you and try to convince everyone that there is no bomb...you and your group are just paranoid freaks...the place is safe.

Me, I appreciate the bomb guys and the effort they put forth to save me. But I don't beleive them, but respect their passion, but tell them to leave me alone. I expect to see them outside my building every day, but i expect them to eventually stop trying to change MY mind. They can keep trying convert others, but they gotta leave me alone.

[ReBirth 0]

Now that one makes a lot more sense.

[goofyjumper 0]

But think about this.......remember the guys who told you about the bomb from their friend, tells you this 20-100 years later......just like the bible.

Would you believe them then?

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I love and Miss you so much Honey!
Orfun #3 ~ Darla

[yourmomma 0]

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unfortunately as Wendy said, and as is clearly evident within the 'proud christian' thread - facts and logic have no place.

.

Cathloics worship bird poop

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/10/31/051031171618.vm0y12ch.html

[DrewGPM 0]

So you haven't seen the bomb and it hasn't gone off yet. There still may be a bomb in that building that could go off at any time. The longer it goes without blowing up, the harder it will be for people to believe the bomb is real. But some people will still believe it and avoid that place. The bomb may be real, it may not be real...beleiving in it requires you to make a leap of faith. If you choose wrong, you could be in the building when if finally blows up. do you want to take that chance? It's your call.

[ReBirth 0]

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If you choose wrong, you could be in the building when if finally blows up. do you want to take that chance? It's your call.

If you choose wrong, you could modify your entire way of life and spend all your time waiting for it to blowup. Do you want to take that chance?

[DrewGPM 0]

There in lies the dilemma. I could let the bomb decide how I act today, and move out of that place...then never think about it again. Or I could spend my whole life trying to convince people that the bomb is real.

If I dedicate my life to spreading the word about this bomb, I might be 100% satisfied knowing that I did my part to save humanity from the big bomb. not everyone had the faith I did, but I saved some. My life was a success in my eyes, who among you would tell me i'm wrong?

It may be generations before that thing actually kills anyone...so I hope I have inspired young people to continue passing on the word. If they take up the calling and live a full life spreading the word of the bomb and die as happy and content me...then bomb bless them.

For you non-beleivers, in bombs name I pray for you. Your day is coming...go ahead and sleep in your bomb infested apartment building...you'll regret dimissing me when your bed explodes!

[ReBirth 0]

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If I dedicate my life to spreading the word about this bomb, I might be 100% satisfied knowing that I did my part to save humanity from the big bomb. not everyone had the faith I did, but I saved some. My life was a success in my eyes, who among you would tell me i'm wrong?

No one could tell you you're wrong and you'd never know that you were, because dying is the only way to prove it one way or the other. You die anyway, even though there was no bomb. At that point it doesn't matter much...but what did you miss out on while spending your time spreading word about the non-existent bomb?

[goofyjumper 0]

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There in lies the dilemma. I could let the bomb decide how I act today, and move out of that place...then never think about it again. Or I could spend my whole life trying to convince people that the bomb is real.

If I dedicate my life to spreading the word about this bomb, I might be 100% satisfied knowing that I did my part to save humanity from the big bomb. not everyone had the faith I did, but I saved some. My life was a success in my eyes, who among you would tell me i'm wrong?

It may be generations before that thing actually kills anyone...so I hope I have inspired young people to continue passing on the word. If they take up the calling and live a full life spreading the word of the bomb and die as happy and content me...then bomb bless them.

For you non-beleivers, in bombs name I pray for you. Your day is coming...go ahead and sleep in your bomb infested apartment building...you'll regret dimissing me when your bed explodes!

Humans are not here to be saved, we are hear to learn.........quit being so scared. That is not the way ANY god wants it!

-----------------
I love and Miss you so much Honey!
Orfun #3 ~ Darla

[billvon 2,476]

>There still may be a bomb in that building that could go off at any time.

Well, right, except the believers will tell you there's really no physical bomb that you can see or touch, it's more of a spiritual thing. You have to pray and just believe in it. Sure, you could disassemble the building and never find a bomb, but that's not the _point_ - you just have to believe.

But then another sect of the bomb believers tells you that you'll blow up anyway if you leave. Yet a third sect says that the apartment building down the street has the bomb, so you better stay right there. A fourth sect says that only _their_ apartment building has no bomb; every other place in the world is going to blow up any day now. But they only have room for 2000 people in their building, and sorry, they're all full. A fifth sect says the whole world is going to blow up, but if you give them, say, a few million bucks, they will let you stay in their guaranteed-safe apartment so you're safe on blowup day.

>do you want to take that chance? It's your call.

But which chance? They all say contradictory things. Stay and be safe from the bomb down the street? Or leave, spend a few million, and hope Bomb Sext Five got it right? Because Bomb Sect Six says all those Fivers are going to get blown to little tiny bits real soon now.

[DrewGPM 0]

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what did you miss out on while spending your time spreading word about the non-existent bomb?

I would have lived my life based on a choice I made...who says i missed out on anything? I could still skydive, climb mountains, go deep sea fishing, have a ton of friends and have a loving family. Did I pass on a few drunken football games in favor or spending the day spreading the word, sure...but why would I regret that? You assume I missed out on things just bacause I chose to believe in the bomb? I can do all the things you can do, so i didn't miss out on anything.

I chose to do X, you chose to do Y. We both missed something. You do your thing, i'll do mine. If I'm happy with mine, it doesn't matter whether you think i wasted it or not. I died happy and content...I would hope you feel the same way when you die.

as long the bomb doesn't get ya, then I'd scream "SEE, I TOLD YOU SO!"

[ReBirth 0]

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I chose to do X, you chose to do Y. We both missed something.

Nope...if Y doesn't exist, how did I miss it?

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You do your thing, i'll do mine. If I'm happy with mine, it doesn't matter whether you think i wasted it or not.

Very true...and goes both ways.

[DrewGPM 0]

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Humans are not here to be saved, we are hear to learn.........quit being so scared. That is not the way ANY god wants it!

So if you saw someone walk into a building you knew was gonna blow up, you wouldn't save them? If a child is about drink poison, you wouldn't save it? People are not here to be saved, but if I can save them doing something that I know will hurt them, I would be a jackass if I didn't try. Who said anything about god? I'm talking about a bomb. As an atheist I don't believe in god.

I'm not scared of anything. I learned about a deadly bomb and I'm avoiding it. Others don't seem to know about the dangers of the bomb, so I'm helping them learn about it. I will teach those who want to learn about the bomb and pray for those who don't believe.

I respect your decision not to believe in the bomb, but I hope take the time learn about before deciding not to believe. Yet people are convinced that I'm scared to live life and that i'm missing out things. I'm not scared or missing anything.

[ReBirth 0]

show me the bomb.