Trae 1 #1 September 25, 2005 There has been a large increase in the number of Australians charged with drug crimes in indonesia after 911. Often these crimes are of a relatively petty nature but the punishments dished out are extreme. A recent case ( only made public due the victim being sort of famous ) invloves a model looking at 15 years for having 2 ecstacy tablets in her hand-bag when searched by indonesian police. There are reports of multiple incidents where the victims managed to pay off the arresting police with small bribes often immediatley after being sold small amounts by street dealers. It now appeqrs that the Indonesians have a new hobby---the baiting and reeling in of tourists (mostly young Australians ) on minor drug charges ie minor if it happened at home but 'major' crimes given the obscenely harsh punishments for being caught possessing small amounts of cannabis or ecstacy or amphetamines or etc.....etc. The injustice of this situation may be apparent to any-one who has travelled in Indonesia as the native drug culture there is widespread and very open in its dealings. If you're white caucasian travelling in Indonesia take extra special care as they appear to be setting up innocents as well as catching the drug orientated tourists. This is a real pity as a lot of the indonesians are truly beautiful people. Oddly enough just like Iraq , Indonesia is a relatively recently 'constructed' country that used to be a collection a very different cultures and peoples. Now it is run by what appear more and more to be out of control corrupt bullies. Take care and give some back as well Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #2 September 25, 2005 ...and don't do/buy/sell drugs in Indonesia. If you get caught, be thankful you're not in Singapore. So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #3 September 25, 2005 This has been going on in mexico for thirty years. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #4 September 25, 2005 QuoteA recent case ( only made public due the victim being sort of famous ) invloves a model looking at 15 years for having 2 ecstacy tablets in her hand-bag when searched by indonesian police. This doesn't sound like a "set up"... It sounds like a bad move on her part. It would seem like a really good idea to find out about the laws of the place that you're traveling to before carrying illegal drugs with you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,475 #5 September 25, 2005 It's no different than an Indonesian tourist who brings some explosives into a US airport security area then pretends he has a bomb. "What, I got JAIL TIME for having fireworks and making a few jokes?" You have to understand the laws of the country you are in. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikkey 0 #6 September 25, 2005 Quote...and don't do/buy/sell drugs in Indonesia. If you get caught, be thankful you're not in Singapore. Indonesian/Malysian/Singaporian laws are very similar. As the PM of Australia said, if you take drugs to these countries - well you are on your own. As for the initial post - utter and complete rubbish.--------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trae 1 #7 September 26, 2005 The even simpler answer is not to go anywhere near these countries. I'm not such a hard liner that I believe people need to be put in 3rd world jails for decades just because their drug of choice is different to the accepted alchoholic norm. The way the victims are set up is the real worry. The problem that appears to be on the increase is that in these countries white westerners are dished out a different form of justice to what the locals get. The street dealer will be there every day selling his wares in full sight of the law but pick up a smoke or a toke from him and you could be looking at 20 years jailtime. He'll be merrily there all day no matter what happens. It's too easy for us to just say that's their law . These people are basically setting up westerners as their new form of corrupt earnings. A bit like institutionalised terrorism. in reply to Andrewwhite.. 'This has been going on in mexico for thirty years. ".................................. It's not really new in asia either just seems to be picking up a bit lately. I once heard that Mexico doesn't have a drug problem ..it's just the people that go visit there that have the problem. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mikkey 0 #8 September 26, 2005 QuoteThe problem that appears to be on the increase is that in these countries white westerners are dished out a different form of justice to what the locals get. Can you provide any prove that locals caught with drugs are treated differently from westerners? Bet you can't. Locals get alos arrested and convicted - you might just not read about it. Quote These people are basically setting up westerners as their new form of corrupt earnings. A bit like institutionalised terrorism. Big claims - no proof. Rubbish - utter rubbish. BTW millions of westerners visit Malaysia, Singapore and Bali every year. How many arrested for drugs? A couple of handful. QuoteThe even simpler answer is not to go anywhere near these countries. Why that? I spend a lot of time in SEA countries - actually just been in Singapore. Always have a good time - I don't do or traffic drugs - so nothing to worry about. I think people in these countries can feel blessed being spared your visit...--------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites unformed 0 #9 September 26, 2005 I've been to quite a few countries, and bought drugs in quite a few countries. This is happening all over the place. You simply don't buy drugs off of street vendors. Ninety percent of the time it won't even be real, and if it is legit, they're probably working with the cops. Lima, Peru, is well known to have dealers work with cops to bust tourists. San Jose, Costa Rica, we were trying to buy pot from a guy in the center who was loudly advertising when there were a bunch of cops nearby. Needless to say, we didn't. It doesn't take too much intelligence to know when something doesn't seem right. In those cases, it usually isn't.This ad space for sale. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gravitymaster 0 #10 September 26, 2005 Apparently what you are saying is pure rubbish. Quotehttp://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,16418998%255E1702,00.html THE Australian Government has backed a crackdown on tourists who flout Indonesia's drug laws after Bali police said they would force travellers to undergo random urine tests at clubs and rave parties. Bali drug squad chief Bambang Sugiarto plans to get Indonesian drug squad officers to force tourists, at random, to submit to the urine tests at social venues. Sugiarto said education campaigns have been run about Indonesia's drug laws. The next logical steps for officers trying to uphold those laws are random testing and raids, he said. Foreign Minister Alexander Downer today backed the crackdown, which follows the recent series of Australian arrests including Sydney model Michelle Leslie. Leslie was allegedly caught with two ecstasy tablets in her bag at a dance party in Bali. She could face 15 years in jail if she is charged and convicted of possessing the drug. Quotehttp://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/apr2005/corb-a06.shtml While the death penalty has existed in Indonesia since independence was established in the late 1940s, drug crimes were not punishable with execution until 1997. Currently there are 54 people on Indonesia’s death row, 31 convicted on drugs charges and 20 of these are foreigners. Edited to add: Law No. 5/1997 on Psychotropic Substances (amphetamines, such as shabu-shabu, ecstasy, speed and ice), provides a maximum sentence of 20 years and/or a fine of Rp5 billion for the manufacture and distribution of such drugs. Critics claim that former president Suharto's regime passed the separate law on psychotropic substances - with the lighter penalty - because children of certain powerful members of the ruling elite were allegedly involved in the ecstasy trade. Following the fall of Suharto in May 1998, some of the elite's children were no longer immune to prosecution for possession of narcotics, although they received more lenient sentences than other offenders. One such case was that of Army Special Forces (Kopassus) Second Lieutenant Agus Isrok, who was arrested in August 1999 at a West Jakarta hotel for possession of 1.6 kilograms of shabu-shabu, 6,218 ecstasy pills, 27.9 grams of heroin and 25 packets of Valium pills. Isrok, the oldest son of former Army chief General Subagyo Hadisiswoyo, was in June 2000 sentenced to four years in prison and fined Rp10 million. But a military high court in November 2000 reduced the sentence to two years in jail and a fine of Rp3 million. In July 2004, former minister Tanri Abeng’s son Emil was reportedly arrested in a South Jakarta hotel room for alleged possession of shabu-shabu. After weeks of refusing to comment on the allegations, police eventually admitted Emil had been arrested, but local media reports said the case against him was never submitted to state prosecutors. -------------------------------------------------------------- Apparently what has sparked this crackdown is that many Aussies are bringing very high quality marijuana into Indonesia and the govt. is out to send a message. In essence, they are racially profiling non-Indonesians. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #11 September 26, 2005 No where here does the post claim that people are wrongfully having drugs "planted" on them - only that they are getting busted more. So,... Don't buy or use drugsm - it's stupid anyway. Don't break the laws when you are a guest. Simple enough. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mikkey 0 #12 September 26, 2005 Firstly: In regard to the article you found: Note the words "planned" etc. So not in force - I had however not heard of this development. Probably being done to scare drug using tourists away from the country. I have no problem with that and it has nothing to do with what was implied by the original poster. Secondly: "Rubbish" was towards the statements he made regarding systematically "setting tourists" up and state terrorism. Indonesia is trying to lure tourists to the country but deter drug smugglers. They are not “setting up” innocent tourists. If you are not smuggling drugs or buying drugs – guess what – you have nothing to fear. Same is true in most SEA’ians countries. Thirdly: Death penalty is normally given for trafficking of commercial quantities. I am not surprised by the % of foreigners as most of these guys are caught in airports (btw foreigner does not have to mean westerner - probably a few from neigbouring countries and China amonst them). You probably see similar % in Singapore, Malaysia and Thailand. Heck, even here a lot of the drug traffickers in jail are foreigners. Fourthly: No doubt Indonesia has corruption. It was rampant during the old regime (and Suharto is no longer in power). Fortunately the country is moving towards democracy and against corruption (they have to – they want investments). The cases you mention are except for one some years ago and have to do with the corruption regarding influential people. Again - the issue raised was that Indonesia would be “dangerous” for normal tourists to visit because you get set-up and land in jail. That is complete rubbish. And BTW … how many times have you visited SEA?--------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pirana 0 #13 September 26, 2005 No comment on the conspiracy angle and whether or not there exists state-sponsored persecution of tourists; but . . . You gotta be numb in the brain to carry drugs in a foriegn country these days. And to carry them thru an airport - you should be jailed for stupidity. If you gotta have some recreational narcotics, procure them, indulge on the spot, and be done with it. Even carrying them around in a tourist area is just not very smart." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #14 September 26, 2005 QuoteIf you gotta have some recreational narcotics,.... Get some real help and get over it ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gravitymaster 0 #15 September 26, 2005 I'd ask the friends and family of Schapelle Corby. Many think she was set up by the Indonesian Govt. There are also cases of alledged entrapment by the police. Whether this is just an overagressive attempt to make a point or not, you cannot just ignore the possibility. It is in my opinion, equally likely that drug dealers are planting drugs in peoples luggage. Still it appears possible that innocent people are being arrested. Question is, do you want to take the chance? I've not been to SEA, but what does that have to do with anything? Do you have to have been physically walking around on their soil to understand there's potentially a problem? Whether it's the police planting drugs on people, drug dealers putting drugs in people luggage, or being forced to take a urine test at a nightclub, SEA isn't someplace I'd want to go. - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pirana 0 #16 September 26, 2005 QuoteQuoteIf you gotta have some recreational narcotics,.... Get some real help and get over it Do you feel anyone that uses narcotics recreationally needs "some real help" and needs to "get over it." Do you think that there is no such thing as responsible use and that we should all become teetotalers?" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites slug 1 #17 September 26, 2005 Hi Mikkey Back in the day we attended the "Boogie in Bali" Upon our arival we were told about the drug laws in bali and "Just say no" or we could be on our own for a very long time. We were when a couple of drug dealers approached us the first couple of days but we were so they stopped aproaching usThe folks selling the tourist trinkets never stopped Anyone see the movie Midnight express? wanna do drugs on holiday? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #18 September 26, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteIf you gotta have some recreational narcotics,.... Get some real help and get over it Do you feel anyone that uses narcotics recreationally needs "some real help" and needs to "get over it." Do you think that there is no such thing as responsible use and that we should all become teetotalers? I would say that "if you can't do the time, don't do the crime". Middle Eastern and SE Asian countries have VERY strong punishments for drug use / drug trafficking. The easiest way not to get in drug trouble is not to do the drugs when you're there. If you can't go a few days, or a few weeks without doing the rec.drugs, I would respectfully submit that you might have a bit of an addiction problem....Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites unformed 0 #19 September 26, 2005 QuoteAnyone see the movie Midnight express? wanna do drugs on holiday? Midnight Express wasn't about doing drugs on holiday. It was about smuggling them. Smuggling is one of the stupidest things you can do. Smuggling hash is even stupider. You can do drugs on holiday. You just can't be a dumbass about it. As I told someone else: If there is someone on the street selling you ten different kinds of drugs, he's selling you one thing: it's either salt, a mugging, or a jail sentence. Just don't even bother. There's legitimate drug dealers in every country.This ad space for sale. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #20 September 26, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteIf you gotta have some recreational narcotics,.... Get some real help and get over it Do you feel anyone that uses narcotics recreationally needs "some real help" and needs to "get over it." Do you think that there is no such thing as responsible use and that we should all become teetotalers? I would say that "if you can't do the time, don't do the crime". Middle Eastern and SE Asian countries have VERY strong punishments for drug use / drug trafficking. The easiest way not to get in drug trouble is not to do the drugs when you're there. If you can't go a few days, or a few weeks without doing the rec.drugs, I would respectfully submit that you might have a bit of an addiction problem.... pirana 1 - This is pretty much my answer. The phrase "gotta have some" is what I responded to (only) and implies no control which is opposite of 'responsible use'. If you can do without, any time for any length of time, then it's under control. If not, then it's a problem. Rationalize otherwise all you want. Hypothetically, let's assume you enjoy the occasional "recreational narcotic". Could you quit right now and never do it again? If the answer isn't an honest, "of course", then that sounds like an addiction, not a recreational pasttime. I feel the same about pot, liquor or tobacco since you'll ask anyway. It might not be wrong, but it certainly is a position about whether one wants control of those aspects of their lives they want to control versus having something control them. 2 - I hate tea, tee, and totaling 3 - drug use in those countries is a really bad judgement call. If ones chooses to try over there, they really do have a problem. Or at least a really low IQ. Or at least a bad perspective on the relative risks associated with those country's laws. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites slug 1 #21 September 26, 2005 QuoteQuoteAnyone see the movie Midnight express? wanna do drugs on holiday? Midnight Express wasn't about doing drugs on holiday. It was about smuggling them. Smuggling is one of the stupidest things you can do. Smuggling hash is even stupider. You can do drugs on holiday. You just can't be a dumbass about it. As I told someone else: If there is someone on the street selling you ten different kinds of drugs, he's selling you one thing: it's either salt, a mugging, or a jail sentence. Just don't even bother. There's legitimate drug dealers in every country. Hi Unformed thanks for the clarification. "Legit drug dealers in every country", Retailers selling to tourists don't have to worry about customer loyalty to stay in business. "Legit drug dealers in every country" Thats like looking for a virgin prostitute Everyone was a virgin at least once R.I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites waltappel 1 #22 September 26, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteIf you gotta have some recreational narcotics,.... Get some real help and get over it Do you feel anyone that uses narcotics recreationally needs "some real help" and needs to "get over it." Do you think that there is no such thing as responsible use and that we should all become teetotalers? I personally think all drugs should be legalized, even though I don't smoke, drink, or do drugs. I consider the "war on drugs" to be a war against the American people. That being said, anyone who chooses to use drugs or deal in them and gets caught, doesn't have much reason to whine. The risks--financial, legal, health-related, social, etc.--are well known and anyone who chooses to take those risks knows there is a serious downside to involvement with drugs. Is there such a thing as "responsible" recreational drug use? Depends on how you define "responsible". I don't think the laws are fair or reasonable and I don't think their enforcement is consistent, but the fact is that those laws are in place whether they make sense or not. Is it responsible to risk severe penalties for a good high? I don't think so, but that's up to each individual to decide for themselves. Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gravitymaster 0 #23 September 26, 2005 Just curious, Walt. Why do you think there isn't a single country on the face of the earth that permits the unrestricted use and/or sale of any drug? - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites waltappel 1 #24 September 26, 2005 QuoteJust curious, Walt. Why do you think there isn't a single country on the face of the earth that permits the unrestricted use and/or sale of any drug? - I was specifically thinking of the United States, but it's a fairly accurate generalization to assume that nearly all countries have laws restricting drug use. Regardless of the laws, though, it is undeniable that there is a big downside to drug use, and I include alcohol and any other intoxicant with that. Laws are just part of the equation. I am all for legalizing all drugs in the U.S. because I don't think the punishment fits the "crime". There are plenty of people who use drugs recreationally that are productive members of society. Throwing them in prison does more harm than good. The drug users that steal to support their habits deserve to be jailed for stealing. Their drug habits may motivate them to commit crimes, but I don't think the drug use either excuses their crimes or makes them more serious. Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pirana 0 #25 September 26, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteIf you gotta have some recreational narcotics,.... Get some real help and get over it Do you feel anyone that uses narcotics recreationally needs "some real help" and needs to "get over it." Do you think that there is no such thing as responsible use and that we should all become teetotalers? I would say that "if you can't do the time, don't do the crime". Middle Eastern and SE Asian countries have VERY strong punishments for drug use / drug trafficking. The easiest way not to get in drug trouble is not to do the drugs when you're there. If you can't go a few days, or a few weeks without doing the rec.drugs, I would respectfully submit that you might have a bit of an addiction problem.... pirana 1 - This is pretty much my answer. The phrase "gotta have some" is what I responded to (only) and implies no control which is opposite of 'responsible use'. If you can do without, any time for any length of time, then it's under control. If not, then it's a problem. Rationalize otherwise all you want. Hypothetically, let's assume you enjoy the occasional "recreational narcotic". Could you quit right now and never do it again? If the answer isn't an honest, "of course", then that sounds like an addiction, not a recreational pasttime. I feel the same about pot, liquor or tobacco since you'll ask anyway. It might not be wrong, but it certainly is a position about whether one wants control of those aspects of their lives they want to control versus having something control them. 2 - I hate tea, tee, and totaling 3 - drug use in those countries is a really bad judgement call. If ones chooses to try over there, they really do have a problem. Or at least a really low IQ. Or at least a bad perspective on the relative risks associated with those country's laws. I understand you now. I thought you were making a blanket negative statement about all recreational users. Agreed, if you do the crime, don't complain about the time; know the local laws, and know that most countries have harsher penalties than in the US, and much less chance of due process." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 1 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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mikkey 0 #8 September 26, 2005 QuoteThe problem that appears to be on the increase is that in these countries white westerners are dished out a different form of justice to what the locals get. Can you provide any prove that locals caught with drugs are treated differently from westerners? Bet you can't. Locals get alos arrested and convicted - you might just not read about it. Quote These people are basically setting up westerners as their new form of corrupt earnings. A bit like institutionalised terrorism. Big claims - no proof. Rubbish - utter rubbish. BTW millions of westerners visit Malaysia, Singapore and Bali every year. How many arrested for drugs? A couple of handful. QuoteThe even simpler answer is not to go anywhere near these countries. Why that? I spend a lot of time in SEA countries - actually just been in Singapore. Always have a good time - I don't do or traffic drugs - so nothing to worry about. I think people in these countries can feel blessed being spared your visit...--------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unformed 0 #9 September 26, 2005 I've been to quite a few countries, and bought drugs in quite a few countries. This is happening all over the place. You simply don't buy drugs off of street vendors. Ninety percent of the time it won't even be real, and if it is legit, they're probably working with the cops. Lima, Peru, is well known to have dealers work with cops to bust tourists. San Jose, Costa Rica, we were trying to buy pot from a guy in the center who was loudly advertising when there were a bunch of cops nearby. Needless to say, we didn't. It doesn't take too much intelligence to know when something doesn't seem right. In those cases, it usually isn't.This ad space for sale. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #10 September 26, 2005 Apparently what you are saying is pure rubbish. Quotehttp://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,16418998%255E1702,00.html THE Australian Government has backed a crackdown on tourists who flout Indonesia's drug laws after Bali police said they would force travellers to undergo random urine tests at clubs and rave parties. Bali drug squad chief Bambang Sugiarto plans to get Indonesian drug squad officers to force tourists, at random, to submit to the urine tests at social venues. Sugiarto said education campaigns have been run about Indonesia's drug laws. The next logical steps for officers trying to uphold those laws are random testing and raids, he said. Foreign Minister Alexander Downer today backed the crackdown, which follows the recent series of Australian arrests including Sydney model Michelle Leslie. Leslie was allegedly caught with two ecstasy tablets in her bag at a dance party in Bali. She could face 15 years in jail if she is charged and convicted of possessing the drug. Quotehttp://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/apr2005/corb-a06.shtml While the death penalty has existed in Indonesia since independence was established in the late 1940s, drug crimes were not punishable with execution until 1997. Currently there are 54 people on Indonesia’s death row, 31 convicted on drugs charges and 20 of these are foreigners. Edited to add: Law No. 5/1997 on Psychotropic Substances (amphetamines, such as shabu-shabu, ecstasy, speed and ice), provides a maximum sentence of 20 years and/or a fine of Rp5 billion for the manufacture and distribution of such drugs. Critics claim that former president Suharto's regime passed the separate law on psychotropic substances - with the lighter penalty - because children of certain powerful members of the ruling elite were allegedly involved in the ecstasy trade. Following the fall of Suharto in May 1998, some of the elite's children were no longer immune to prosecution for possession of narcotics, although they received more lenient sentences than other offenders. One such case was that of Army Special Forces (Kopassus) Second Lieutenant Agus Isrok, who was arrested in August 1999 at a West Jakarta hotel for possession of 1.6 kilograms of shabu-shabu, 6,218 ecstasy pills, 27.9 grams of heroin and 25 packets of Valium pills. Isrok, the oldest son of former Army chief General Subagyo Hadisiswoyo, was in June 2000 sentenced to four years in prison and fined Rp10 million. But a military high court in November 2000 reduced the sentence to two years in jail and a fine of Rp3 million. In July 2004, former minister Tanri Abeng’s son Emil was reportedly arrested in a South Jakarta hotel room for alleged possession of shabu-shabu. After weeks of refusing to comment on the allegations, police eventually admitted Emil had been arrested, but local media reports said the case against him was never submitted to state prosecutors. -------------------------------------------------------------- Apparently what has sparked this crackdown is that many Aussies are bringing very high quality marijuana into Indonesia and the govt. is out to send a message. In essence, they are racially profiling non-Indonesians. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #11 September 26, 2005 No where here does the post claim that people are wrongfully having drugs "planted" on them - only that they are getting busted more. So,... Don't buy or use drugsm - it's stupid anyway. Don't break the laws when you are a guest. Simple enough. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikkey 0 #12 September 26, 2005 Firstly: In regard to the article you found: Note the words "planned" etc. So not in force - I had however not heard of this development. Probably being done to scare drug using tourists away from the country. I have no problem with that and it has nothing to do with what was implied by the original poster. Secondly: "Rubbish" was towards the statements he made regarding systematically "setting tourists" up and state terrorism. Indonesia is trying to lure tourists to the country but deter drug smugglers. They are not “setting up” innocent tourists. If you are not smuggling drugs or buying drugs – guess what – you have nothing to fear. Same is true in most SEA’ians countries. Thirdly: Death penalty is normally given for trafficking of commercial quantities. I am not surprised by the % of foreigners as most of these guys are caught in airports (btw foreigner does not have to mean westerner - probably a few from neigbouring countries and China amonst them). You probably see similar % in Singapore, Malaysia and Thailand. Heck, even here a lot of the drug traffickers in jail are foreigners. Fourthly: No doubt Indonesia has corruption. It was rampant during the old regime (and Suharto is no longer in power). Fortunately the country is moving towards democracy and against corruption (they have to – they want investments). The cases you mention are except for one some years ago and have to do with the corruption regarding influential people. Again - the issue raised was that Indonesia would be “dangerous” for normal tourists to visit because you get set-up and land in jail. That is complete rubbish. And BTW … how many times have you visited SEA?--------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #13 September 26, 2005 No comment on the conspiracy angle and whether or not there exists state-sponsored persecution of tourists; but . . . You gotta be numb in the brain to carry drugs in a foriegn country these days. And to carry them thru an airport - you should be jailed for stupidity. If you gotta have some recreational narcotics, procure them, indulge on the spot, and be done with it. Even carrying them around in a tourist area is just not very smart." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #14 September 26, 2005 QuoteIf you gotta have some recreational narcotics,.... Get some real help and get over it ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #15 September 26, 2005 I'd ask the friends and family of Schapelle Corby. Many think she was set up by the Indonesian Govt. There are also cases of alledged entrapment by the police. Whether this is just an overagressive attempt to make a point or not, you cannot just ignore the possibility. It is in my opinion, equally likely that drug dealers are planting drugs in peoples luggage. Still it appears possible that innocent people are being arrested. Question is, do you want to take the chance? I've not been to SEA, but what does that have to do with anything? Do you have to have been physically walking around on their soil to understand there's potentially a problem? Whether it's the police planting drugs on people, drug dealers putting drugs in people luggage, or being forced to take a urine test at a nightclub, SEA isn't someplace I'd want to go. - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #16 September 26, 2005 QuoteQuoteIf you gotta have some recreational narcotics,.... Get some real help and get over it Do you feel anyone that uses narcotics recreationally needs "some real help" and needs to "get over it." Do you think that there is no such thing as responsible use and that we should all become teetotalers?" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slug 1 #17 September 26, 2005 Hi Mikkey Back in the day we attended the "Boogie in Bali" Upon our arival we were told about the drug laws in bali and "Just say no" or we could be on our own for a very long time. We were when a couple of drug dealers approached us the first couple of days but we were so they stopped aproaching usThe folks selling the tourist trinkets never stopped Anyone see the movie Midnight express? wanna do drugs on holiday? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #18 September 26, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteIf you gotta have some recreational narcotics,.... Get some real help and get over it Do you feel anyone that uses narcotics recreationally needs "some real help" and needs to "get over it." Do you think that there is no such thing as responsible use and that we should all become teetotalers? I would say that "if you can't do the time, don't do the crime". Middle Eastern and SE Asian countries have VERY strong punishments for drug use / drug trafficking. The easiest way not to get in drug trouble is not to do the drugs when you're there. If you can't go a few days, or a few weeks without doing the rec.drugs, I would respectfully submit that you might have a bit of an addiction problem....Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unformed 0 #19 September 26, 2005 QuoteAnyone see the movie Midnight express? wanna do drugs on holiday? Midnight Express wasn't about doing drugs on holiday. It was about smuggling them. Smuggling is one of the stupidest things you can do. Smuggling hash is even stupider. You can do drugs on holiday. You just can't be a dumbass about it. As I told someone else: If there is someone on the street selling you ten different kinds of drugs, he's selling you one thing: it's either salt, a mugging, or a jail sentence. Just don't even bother. There's legitimate drug dealers in every country.This ad space for sale. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #20 September 26, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteIf you gotta have some recreational narcotics,.... Get some real help and get over it Do you feel anyone that uses narcotics recreationally needs "some real help" and needs to "get over it." Do you think that there is no such thing as responsible use and that we should all become teetotalers? I would say that "if you can't do the time, don't do the crime". Middle Eastern and SE Asian countries have VERY strong punishments for drug use / drug trafficking. The easiest way not to get in drug trouble is not to do the drugs when you're there. If you can't go a few days, or a few weeks without doing the rec.drugs, I would respectfully submit that you might have a bit of an addiction problem.... pirana 1 - This is pretty much my answer. The phrase "gotta have some" is what I responded to (only) and implies no control which is opposite of 'responsible use'. If you can do without, any time for any length of time, then it's under control. If not, then it's a problem. Rationalize otherwise all you want. Hypothetically, let's assume you enjoy the occasional "recreational narcotic". Could you quit right now and never do it again? If the answer isn't an honest, "of course", then that sounds like an addiction, not a recreational pasttime. I feel the same about pot, liquor or tobacco since you'll ask anyway. It might not be wrong, but it certainly is a position about whether one wants control of those aspects of their lives they want to control versus having something control them. 2 - I hate tea, tee, and totaling 3 - drug use in those countries is a really bad judgement call. If ones chooses to try over there, they really do have a problem. Or at least a really low IQ. Or at least a bad perspective on the relative risks associated with those country's laws. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slug 1 #21 September 26, 2005 QuoteQuoteAnyone see the movie Midnight express? wanna do drugs on holiday? Midnight Express wasn't about doing drugs on holiday. It was about smuggling them. Smuggling is one of the stupidest things you can do. Smuggling hash is even stupider. You can do drugs on holiday. You just can't be a dumbass about it. As I told someone else: If there is someone on the street selling you ten different kinds of drugs, he's selling you one thing: it's either salt, a mugging, or a jail sentence. Just don't even bother. There's legitimate drug dealers in every country. Hi Unformed thanks for the clarification. "Legit drug dealers in every country", Retailers selling to tourists don't have to worry about customer loyalty to stay in business. "Legit drug dealers in every country" Thats like looking for a virgin prostitute Everyone was a virgin at least once R.I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waltappel 1 #22 September 26, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteIf you gotta have some recreational narcotics,.... Get some real help and get over it Do you feel anyone that uses narcotics recreationally needs "some real help" and needs to "get over it." Do you think that there is no such thing as responsible use and that we should all become teetotalers? I personally think all drugs should be legalized, even though I don't smoke, drink, or do drugs. I consider the "war on drugs" to be a war against the American people. That being said, anyone who chooses to use drugs or deal in them and gets caught, doesn't have much reason to whine. The risks--financial, legal, health-related, social, etc.--are well known and anyone who chooses to take those risks knows there is a serious downside to involvement with drugs. Is there such a thing as "responsible" recreational drug use? Depends on how you define "responsible". I don't think the laws are fair or reasonable and I don't think their enforcement is consistent, but the fact is that those laws are in place whether they make sense or not. Is it responsible to risk severe penalties for a good high? I don't think so, but that's up to each individual to decide for themselves. Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #23 September 26, 2005 Just curious, Walt. Why do you think there isn't a single country on the face of the earth that permits the unrestricted use and/or sale of any drug? - Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waltappel 1 #24 September 26, 2005 QuoteJust curious, Walt. Why do you think there isn't a single country on the face of the earth that permits the unrestricted use and/or sale of any drug? - I was specifically thinking of the United States, but it's a fairly accurate generalization to assume that nearly all countries have laws restricting drug use. Regardless of the laws, though, it is undeniable that there is a big downside to drug use, and I include alcohol and any other intoxicant with that. Laws are just part of the equation. I am all for legalizing all drugs in the U.S. because I don't think the punishment fits the "crime". There are plenty of people who use drugs recreationally that are productive members of society. Throwing them in prison does more harm than good. The drug users that steal to support their habits deserve to be jailed for stealing. Their drug habits may motivate them to commit crimes, but I don't think the drug use either excuses their crimes or makes them more serious. Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #25 September 26, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteIf you gotta have some recreational narcotics,.... Get some real help and get over it Do you feel anyone that uses narcotics recreationally needs "some real help" and needs to "get over it." Do you think that there is no such thing as responsible use and that we should all become teetotalers? I would say that "if you can't do the time, don't do the crime". Middle Eastern and SE Asian countries have VERY strong punishments for drug use / drug trafficking. The easiest way not to get in drug trouble is not to do the drugs when you're there. If you can't go a few days, or a few weeks without doing the rec.drugs, I would respectfully submit that you might have a bit of an addiction problem.... pirana 1 - This is pretty much my answer. The phrase "gotta have some" is what I responded to (only) and implies no control which is opposite of 'responsible use'. If you can do without, any time for any length of time, then it's under control. If not, then it's a problem. Rationalize otherwise all you want. Hypothetically, let's assume you enjoy the occasional "recreational narcotic". Could you quit right now and never do it again? If the answer isn't an honest, "of course", then that sounds like an addiction, not a recreational pasttime. I feel the same about pot, liquor or tobacco since you'll ask anyway. It might not be wrong, but it certainly is a position about whether one wants control of those aspects of their lives they want to control versus having something control them. 2 - I hate tea, tee, and totaling 3 - drug use in those countries is a really bad judgement call. If ones chooses to try over there, they really do have a problem. Or at least a really low IQ. Or at least a bad perspective on the relative risks associated with those country's laws. I understand you now. I thought you were making a blanket negative statement about all recreational users. Agreed, if you do the crime, don't complain about the time; know the local laws, and know that most countries have harsher penalties than in the US, and much less chance of due process." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
