Shotgun 1 #26 July 7, 2005 QuoteI just wanted to make the point that’s it’s not the book that is at fault but the people who claim to follow it. Agreed... You can't blame a book for the decisions made by the people who read that book. Those people are solely responsible for what they choose to believe and their decisions based on those beliefs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #27 July 7, 2005 All good Men (humans) should choose words over violence whenever possible. Quote thats funny. Did we just try to talk when we were attacked or did we start not one but two wars?I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Salsa_John 0 #28 July 7, 2005 QuoteQuoteWhy can not not all good people stand up for what is right? They usually do, don' they? not always when fear and oppression are the rule of law. It is hard to fight evil when evil rules. You can not tell me there are no good people in Iraq who have no idea where these bombers are. When they blow up food centers, power plants, oil pipelines, police stations, markets, and other places of innocence are they not causing harm to all? That being the case, if all good people stood up and said no more then would not all of Iraq benefit? Why are not the Imam's saying in unison, "These actions are wrong. The bombings are wrong. Love your neighbor. Care for the children. "? "You did what?!?!" MUFF #3722, TDSM #72, Orfun #26, Nachos Rodriguez Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites storm1977 0 #29 July 7, 2005 The war in Iraq was talk for 12yrs before action was taken. Sometimes words need to be followed up by action. ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,402 #30 July 7, 2005 It says to kill non believers. ---WHERE? You haven't read much of the Bible, have you? Deuteronomy 13:6-10 If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and serve other gods,' which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers, of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth, you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. And you shall stone him with stones until he dies, because he sought to entice you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. Exodus 22:18 - Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. Exodus 22:20 - He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed. Exodus 31:15 - Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Deuteronomy 7:4 - For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly. But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire. It says to kill gays. ----WHERE? Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. It says to stone you child to death if they disobey. ----WHERE? Deut 21:18-21 If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and who, when they have chastened him, will not heed them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city, to the gate of his city. And they shall say to the elders of his city, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.' Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall put away the evil from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear. The difference is that MOST Christians/Jews don't follow the Bible. ----MOST? HOW MANY DO YOU KNOW THAT DON'T. I suspect you don't. Would you really kill your son if he disobeyed? -----HOW MANY HAVE DONE THIS? HOW MANY HAVE BEEN KILLED BY MUSLIM TERRORISTS? What? Killed Muslims? Many millions during the Crusades. We finally learned to stop taking the Bible so seriously. . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Darius11 12 #31 July 7, 2005 I don’t disagree with you that some times force is necessary but that goes both ways. It was directed at Salsa for saying how they should be solving the problems with words. We obviously don’t use words very often or if we do we want every one to agree with us or else. Iraq did not have any WMD as the UN inspectors said or would have found out if we would have waited. Let’s see wait a few months or start a very costly war. I think waiting would have been a good choice.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Frenchy68 0 #32 July 7, 2005 QuoteYou can not tell me there are no good people in Iraq who have no idea where these bombers are. I don't know. But I would think that they move in different circles. Much like the good people in the US usually do not know where the criminals are to turn them in. QuoteThat being the case, if all good people stood up and said no more then would not all of Iraq benefit? Probably. But some things take time. The same people who stood up to the British in the 18th century did not stand up to slavery. The people who stood up to Hitler in 1941 did not stand up to him in the 30's. QuoteWhy are not the Imam's saying in unison, "These actions are wrong. The bombings are wrong. Love your neighbor. Care for the children. " Most of them are. "For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Steel 0 #33 July 7, 2005 QuoteQuoteWhy would you want to say anything in their defence? This didn't start with the invasion of Iraq and would not stop with the US troops leaving Iraq. You make it sound like all they are trying to do is defend their country against an invader. That is far from the truth. I don't think Bill was defending terrorists. But trying to rationally understand the thought process going behind someone committing such acts can help defending against it in the long term. One person's terrorism is usually another's heroism. Actually, I believe Bill was going a little further than that {into fantasy land per say}. He suggested that if Muslim country invaded the U.S. that American suicide bombers would be targeting Mosques. With the most possible respect to Bill this is laughable. My parents home country of Cuba was invaded in a far more aggressive style than the U.S. has or will ever do to a Muslim country. My parents just as most Cuban's did not become suicide bombers that targetted the communists. Instead they looked for the best possible way to get out the that then oppressive government. Ok so we all know from looking at statistics that Cubans are the best. But they are not the only ones. Think about world War II, how many European countries produced suicide Christian suicide bombers that were ready to target the Nazi's after their countries' were invaded and taken over. We all know about Kamikazi's but we also know they were not Christian. One or two psychos here and there in every religion or nationality can be expected. But when it gets to the degree that there are Al Queda cells in countries all over the world, this is obviously not 2 or 3. Equading an organization with thousands of suicidal members with a random acts of violence of people who are not even suicidal such as Timothy Mcviegh or the Unibomber or some killing at an abortion clinic, is propostorous.If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass. Can't think of anything I need No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound. Nothing to eat, no books to read. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #34 July 7, 2005 QuoteIt says to kill gays. ----WHERE? Leviticus 20:13 "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." QuoteIt says to stone you child to death if they disobey. ----WHERE? "If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them; Then shall his father and mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of the city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear." (Deuteronomy 21:18-21) QuoteIt says to sacrifice for God. -----SACRIFICE WHAT? Several things..Here is one. 4:3 "'If the high priest5 sins so that the people are guilty,6 on account of the sin he has committed he must present a flawless young bull to the Lord7 for a sin offering.8 4:4 He must bring the bull to the doorway of the Meeting Tent before the Lord, lay his hand on the head of the bull, and slaughter the bull before the Lord. 4:5 Then that high priest must take some of the blood9 of the bull and bring it to the Meeting Tent. 4:6 The priest must dip his finger in the blood and sprinkle10 some of it11 seven times before the Lord toward12 the front of the veil-canopy13 of the sanctuary. 4:7 The priest must put some of the blood on the horns of the altar of fragrant incense that is before the Lord in the Meeting Tent, and all the rest of the bull's blood he must pour out at the base of the altar of burnt offering that is at the doorway of the Meeting Tent. 4:8 "'Then he must take up all the fat from the sin offering bull:14 the fat covering the entrails15 and all the fat on the entrails, 4:9 the two kidneys with the fat on their sinews, and the protruding lobe on the liver (which he is to remove along with the kidneys)16 4:10 --just as it is taken up from the ox of the peace offering sacrifice17--and the priest must offer them up in smoke on the altar of burnt offering. 4:11 But the hide of the bull, all its flesh along with its head and its legs, its entrails, and its dung-- 4:12 all the rest of the bull18--he must bring outside the camp19 to a clean place,20 to the fatty ash pile,21 and he must burn22 it on wood; it must be burned on the fatty ash pile. QuoteThe difference is that MOST Christians/Jews don't follow the Bible. ----MOST? HOW MANY DO YOU KNOW THAT DON'T. When was the last time you went to a stoning? Quote 22:22 If a man is caught having sexual relations with36 a married woman37 both the man who had relations with the woman and the woman herself must die; in this way you will purge38 evil from Israel. 22:23 If a virgin is engaged to a man and another man meets39 her in the city and has sexual relations with40 her, 22:24 you must bring the two of them to the gate of that city and stone them to death, the young woman because she did not cry out though in the city and the man because he violated41 his neighbor's fiancée; in this way you will purge42 evil from among you. 22:25 But if the man came across43 the engaged woman in the field and overpowered her and raped44 her, then only the rapist45 must die. 22:26 You must not do anything to the young woman--she has done nothing deserving of death. This case is the same as when someone attacks another person46 and murders him, 22:27 for the man47 met her in the field and the engaged woman cried out, but there was no one to rescue her. 22:28 Suppose a man comes across a virgin who is not engaged and overpowers and rapes48 her and they are discovered. 22:29 The man who has raped her must pay her father fifty shekels of silver and she must become his wife because he has violated her; he may never divorce her as long as he lives. QuoteSome still do...Those that claim they are killing Abortion Dr's in the name of "God". -----HOW MANY HAVE DONE THIS? HOW MANY HAVE BEEN KILLED BY MUSLIM TERRORISTS? Oh, its a matter of HOW many? Not really its a matter of why. Lets not even bring up the crusades. QuoteDesperate people do desperate deeds. ----DESPERATE PEOPLE USE DESPERATE AND EXAGERATED WORDS. Well I have found some quotes from the bible...I think you are the desperate one...Unless you stone people for sleeping around, or kill your kids if they mouth off. Im at work, so I don't have time to pick apart everything. Chirstianity is just as "evil" as any other religion. And has probley killed more."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #35 July 7, 2005 QuoteGood points Ron. Would you also say that since in some middle eastern countries religion and government are married that it in a way justifies these terrorist attacks. They would missinterpert statements from the Quran as justifiable acts in order to protect their country and way of life. Some Countries do....Some don't. I think the major problem is the religous nutbags in ANY religion. It seems that in areas that are lower on the economic strata you seem to have more looking to and blindly following a religion. When was the last time you heard a 19 year old suicide bomber that was last seen listening to an Ipod, and playing with a portable playstation? Desperation leads to desperate acts."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Casurf1978 0 #36 July 7, 2005 Correct me if I'm wrong but I read some where that there were a few instances of suicide bombers during the Cuban revolution. They didn't target civilians but rather high ranking Batista military officials. I would also say that suicide bombers are not as prevalent in our culture because of the way we view the act of suicide. If it were somewhat acceptable I'm sure it would be more common. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Frenchy68 0 #37 July 7, 2005 Granted. However, you have to take the means of delivery into consideration. I believe that if Al Qaeda was given an air force, army and navy, that they would much rather use them than suicide bombers. The constant pounding of England during the Battle of England, as well as the bombing of Dresden, Tokyo, etc... was much more effective in terms of sheer destruction than what suicide bombers can ever accomplish. Some groups in the muslim world believe that then end justifies the means, and find that suicide bombers are the only (or most effective) mean at their disposal. What interests me is what turns a person to volunteer to blow him/herself up for that belief. And I believe that until we do understand that process, we will not have a single chance of stopping it. As you mentioned, if it were a couple of isolated cases, such as Tim McVeigh, it could be blamed on the madness of an individual. But there are so many available as human bombs! Why? How does one get to that point? IMO "For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Steel 0 #38 July 7, 2005 QuoteCorrect me if I'm wrong but I read some where that there were a few instances of suicide bombers during the Cuban revolution. They didn't target civilians but rather high ranking Batista military officials. I would also say that suicide bombers are not as prevalent in our culture because of the way we view the act of suicide. If it were somewhat acceptable I'm sure it would be more common. If there were it would be news to me. But that also goes back to what I said about a few random acts not being enough for a generalization. I am sure that there were NOT a significant enough number of suicidal Cubans to create a group of psychos.If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass. Can't think of anything I need No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound. Nothing to eat, no books to read. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #39 July 7, 2005 I must have posted this at least 5 times in the past refuting the same old attacks you and others bring against the Bible. The Bible is not just a book of morals from front to back. It is also a history book. All of these quotes you & Ron bring must be brought into “context.” I’m sure that’s also the case with the Quran. An understanding of the differences in the laws of the Old Testament is important. Laws enforced by the Nation of Israel are not necessarily “God’s” laws. QuoteThe commands of the Old Testament are divided generally into moral law, ceremonial law and civil law. The moral laws (e.g., the 10 commandments) remain in effect and few people would question that. The ceremonial law (sacrificing 2 oxen, etc.) was fulfilled in Jesus' sacrificial death and the New Testament teaches that it is not binding anymore. The civil law (stoning for adultery, etc.) was the law of the nation of Israel, which operated as a Theocracy, and is not the civil law of any other nation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites eaglenrider 0 #40 July 7, 2005 that a certain group of people targets all other religions for obliteration? __________________________________________________ The religious texts of the Jews also spellout such beliefs. As a matter of fact, Israel was founded on "terrorist" attacks and those attacks were responsible for the coining of the word "terrorism". Ya see, and this is amazing to me, before Israel came into existence there were no reports of "terrorist attacks". Could it be that the creation of the Jewish homeland in disobedience of their God is the act responsible for lack of peace throughout the world? I don't know. I am certain,and it is a fact ,that there was never a report of "terrorist attacks" until the Jews began to resettle Palestine. Blues, Cliff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 7 #41 July 7, 2005 QuoteI must have posted this at least 5 times in the past refuting the same old attacks you and others bring against the Bible. The Bible is not just a book of morals from front to back. It is also a history book. All of these quotes you & Ron bring must be brought into “context.” I’m sure that’s also the case with the Quran. An understanding of the differences in the laws of the Old Testament is important. Laws enforced by the Nation of Israel are not necessarily “God’s” laws. In this case, he asked why the Quran and Muslims were so violent.... The quotes just go to show that the Bible says many of the same things he claimed the Quran said. And BOTH religions have had people kill in the name of 'God'. We just provided quotes from one work to counter another."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,402 #42 July 7, 2005 >ceremonial law (sacrificing 2 oxen, etc.) was fulfilled in Jesus' > sacrificial death and the New Testament teaches that it is not > binding anymore. Deuteronomy 12:32 - Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it. Revelation 22: 18-19 - For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. But despite all that I agree with you. It _is_ a combination moral guide, ancient history, and foundation of a religion. Some things cannot be taken 100% seriously; heck, even if you believe in Genesis as written, Genesis 1 and 2 contradict each other. People who take it literally are making the same mistake as people who claim the Koran advocates death and destruction. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Casurf1978 0 #43 July 7, 2005 QuoteThe war in Iraq was talk for 12yrs before action was taken. Sometimes words need to be followed up by action. Agreed, but to blindly go into a situation w/o having a plan with an end game or knowing your enemy is ignorant and stupid. Like Sun Tzu said: "Know the enemy and know yourself; in a hundred battles you will never be in peril. When you are ignorant of the enemy but know yourself your chances of winning are equal. If ignorant both of the enemy and of yourself, you are certain in every battle to be in peril" It seem the terrorist know more about us than we do about them. They knew when and where to strike in order to cause the most amount of fear and terror. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #44 July 7, 2005 QuoteDeuteronomy 12:32 - Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it. Revelation 22: 18-19 - For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. I guess you’re saying that the New Testament goes against what God commanded in the Old Testament with regard to adding to it. Unless, Jesus was who he claimed to be. QuoteBut despite all that I agree with you. It _is_ a combination moral guide, ancient history, and foundation of a religion. Some things cannot be taken 100% seriously; heck, even if you believe in Genesis as written, Genesis 1 and 2 contradict each other. People who take it literally are making the same mistake as people who claim the Koran advocates death and destruction. Don't Gen. 1 and 2 present contradictory creation accounts? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #45 July 7, 2005 QuoteIn this case, he asked why the Quran and Muslims were so violent.... The quotes just go to show that the Bible says many of the same things he claimed the Quran said. And BOTH religions have had people kill in the name of 'God'. We just provided quotes from one work to counter another. It would be interesting to compare the principle teachings of Jesus & Muhammad. [e.g. Muhammad killed, advocated killing, and came about as a warrior; Jesus came from lowly beginnings, lived sinless and only advocated peace.) I’m talking about the principals of the religions, not what people have done with them (right or wrong). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,402 #46 July 7, 2005 >Don't Gen. 1 and 2 present contradictory creation accounts? OK, then. Did God create woman before or after the animals? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites StreetScooby 5 #47 July 7, 2005 For what this is worth... In Saudi Arabia: 1) During prayer time, if you are caught walking the street you go to jail. 2) If a non-Muslim goes to a "chop-chop" square (where they do beheadings), the crowd will force you right up to the executioner so that you get blood on you. Pretty extreme stuff, and they're trying to export this religion. I still don't understand why we aren't going after the money instead of the small guys with guns in their hands.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #48 July 7, 2005 Quote>Don't Gen. 1 and 2 present contradictory creation accounts? OK, then. Did God create woman before or after the animals? You know....who cares? What's the important stuff you should be focused on? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,402 #49 July 7, 2005 >You know....who cares? Not many people, because not many people believe in Genesis as written. It only becomes a problem when religious nuts try to teach it in place of science. >What's the important stuff you should be focused on? Right now? Impedance mismatch problems on the J4433 WinCE PWB and rework instructions for the J3018 VIO board, if you want to be technical. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jenfly00 0 #50 July 7, 2005 QuoteThe Catholic Church had its Crusades. The Muslims are in the midst of their Crusades right now. In another few years/decades they'll stop it, too. The catholic church had a little thing called the Spanish Inquisition (actually, it was world wide but the Spaniard's had a certain flair for it that made them memorable) that ran from 1478-1834. It was the church's official policy to torture people until they swore to accept the holy church and murder those that would not. While three and a half centuries could be termed a "few decades" it seems a bit of a stretch. jen----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 2 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
Salsa_John 0 #28 July 7, 2005 QuoteQuoteWhy can not not all good people stand up for what is right? They usually do, don' they? not always when fear and oppression are the rule of law. It is hard to fight evil when evil rules. You can not tell me there are no good people in Iraq who have no idea where these bombers are. When they blow up food centers, power plants, oil pipelines, police stations, markets, and other places of innocence are they not causing harm to all? That being the case, if all good people stood up and said no more then would not all of Iraq benefit? Why are not the Imam's saying in unison, "These actions are wrong. The bombings are wrong. Love your neighbor. Care for the children. "? "You did what?!?!" MUFF #3722, TDSM #72, Orfun #26, Nachos Rodriguez Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #29 July 7, 2005 The war in Iraq was talk for 12yrs before action was taken. Sometimes words need to be followed up by action. ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,402 #30 July 7, 2005 It says to kill non believers. ---WHERE? You haven't read much of the Bible, have you? Deuteronomy 13:6-10 If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and serve other gods,' which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers, of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth, you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. And you shall stone him with stones until he dies, because he sought to entice you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. Exodus 22:18 - Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. Exodus 22:20 - He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed. Exodus 31:15 - Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Deuteronomy 7:4 - For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly. But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire. It says to kill gays. ----WHERE? Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. It says to stone you child to death if they disobey. ----WHERE? Deut 21:18-21 If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and who, when they have chastened him, will not heed them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city, to the gate of his city. And they shall say to the elders of his city, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.' Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall put away the evil from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear. The difference is that MOST Christians/Jews don't follow the Bible. ----MOST? HOW MANY DO YOU KNOW THAT DON'T. I suspect you don't. Would you really kill your son if he disobeyed? -----HOW MANY HAVE DONE THIS? HOW MANY HAVE BEEN KILLED BY MUSLIM TERRORISTS? What? Killed Muslims? Many millions during the Crusades. We finally learned to stop taking the Bible so seriously. . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #31 July 7, 2005 I don’t disagree with you that some times force is necessary but that goes both ways. It was directed at Salsa for saying how they should be solving the problems with words. We obviously don’t use words very often or if we do we want every one to agree with us or else. Iraq did not have any WMD as the UN inspectors said or would have found out if we would have waited. Let’s see wait a few months or start a very costly war. I think waiting would have been a good choice.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frenchy68 0 #32 July 7, 2005 QuoteYou can not tell me there are no good people in Iraq who have no idea where these bombers are. I don't know. But I would think that they move in different circles. Much like the good people in the US usually do not know where the criminals are to turn them in. QuoteThat being the case, if all good people stood up and said no more then would not all of Iraq benefit? Probably. But some things take time. The same people who stood up to the British in the 18th century did not stand up to slavery. The people who stood up to Hitler in 1941 did not stand up to him in the 30's. QuoteWhy are not the Imam's saying in unison, "These actions are wrong. The bombings are wrong. Love your neighbor. Care for the children. " Most of them are. "For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Steel 0 #33 July 7, 2005 QuoteQuoteWhy would you want to say anything in their defence? This didn't start with the invasion of Iraq and would not stop with the US troops leaving Iraq. You make it sound like all they are trying to do is defend their country against an invader. That is far from the truth. I don't think Bill was defending terrorists. But trying to rationally understand the thought process going behind someone committing such acts can help defending against it in the long term. One person's terrorism is usually another's heroism. Actually, I believe Bill was going a little further than that {into fantasy land per say}. He suggested that if Muslim country invaded the U.S. that American suicide bombers would be targeting Mosques. With the most possible respect to Bill this is laughable. My parents home country of Cuba was invaded in a far more aggressive style than the U.S. has or will ever do to a Muslim country. My parents just as most Cuban's did not become suicide bombers that targetted the communists. Instead they looked for the best possible way to get out the that then oppressive government. Ok so we all know from looking at statistics that Cubans are the best. But they are not the only ones. Think about world War II, how many European countries produced suicide Christian suicide bombers that were ready to target the Nazi's after their countries' were invaded and taken over. We all know about Kamikazi's but we also know they were not Christian. One or two psychos here and there in every religion or nationality can be expected. But when it gets to the degree that there are Al Queda cells in countries all over the world, this is obviously not 2 or 3. Equading an organization with thousands of suicidal members with a random acts of violence of people who are not even suicidal such as Timothy Mcviegh or the Unibomber or some killing at an abortion clinic, is propostorous.If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass. Can't think of anything I need No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound. Nothing to eat, no books to read. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #34 July 7, 2005 QuoteIt says to kill gays. ----WHERE? Leviticus 20:13 "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." QuoteIt says to stone you child to death if they disobey. ----WHERE? "If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them; Then shall his father and mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of the city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear." (Deuteronomy 21:18-21) QuoteIt says to sacrifice for God. -----SACRIFICE WHAT? Several things..Here is one. 4:3 "'If the high priest5 sins so that the people are guilty,6 on account of the sin he has committed he must present a flawless young bull to the Lord7 for a sin offering.8 4:4 He must bring the bull to the doorway of the Meeting Tent before the Lord, lay his hand on the head of the bull, and slaughter the bull before the Lord. 4:5 Then that high priest must take some of the blood9 of the bull and bring it to the Meeting Tent. 4:6 The priest must dip his finger in the blood and sprinkle10 some of it11 seven times before the Lord toward12 the front of the veil-canopy13 of the sanctuary. 4:7 The priest must put some of the blood on the horns of the altar of fragrant incense that is before the Lord in the Meeting Tent, and all the rest of the bull's blood he must pour out at the base of the altar of burnt offering that is at the doorway of the Meeting Tent. 4:8 "'Then he must take up all the fat from the sin offering bull:14 the fat covering the entrails15 and all the fat on the entrails, 4:9 the two kidneys with the fat on their sinews, and the protruding lobe on the liver (which he is to remove along with the kidneys)16 4:10 --just as it is taken up from the ox of the peace offering sacrifice17--and the priest must offer them up in smoke on the altar of burnt offering. 4:11 But the hide of the bull, all its flesh along with its head and its legs, its entrails, and its dung-- 4:12 all the rest of the bull18--he must bring outside the camp19 to a clean place,20 to the fatty ash pile,21 and he must burn22 it on wood; it must be burned on the fatty ash pile. QuoteThe difference is that MOST Christians/Jews don't follow the Bible. ----MOST? HOW MANY DO YOU KNOW THAT DON'T. When was the last time you went to a stoning? Quote 22:22 If a man is caught having sexual relations with36 a married woman37 both the man who had relations with the woman and the woman herself must die; in this way you will purge38 evil from Israel. 22:23 If a virgin is engaged to a man and another man meets39 her in the city and has sexual relations with40 her, 22:24 you must bring the two of them to the gate of that city and stone them to death, the young woman because she did not cry out though in the city and the man because he violated41 his neighbor's fiancée; in this way you will purge42 evil from among you. 22:25 But if the man came across43 the engaged woman in the field and overpowered her and raped44 her, then only the rapist45 must die. 22:26 You must not do anything to the young woman--she has done nothing deserving of death. This case is the same as when someone attacks another person46 and murders him, 22:27 for the man47 met her in the field and the engaged woman cried out, but there was no one to rescue her. 22:28 Suppose a man comes across a virgin who is not engaged and overpowers and rapes48 her and they are discovered. 22:29 The man who has raped her must pay her father fifty shekels of silver and she must become his wife because he has violated her; he may never divorce her as long as he lives. QuoteSome still do...Those that claim they are killing Abortion Dr's in the name of "God". -----HOW MANY HAVE DONE THIS? HOW MANY HAVE BEEN KILLED BY MUSLIM TERRORISTS? Oh, its a matter of HOW many? Not really its a matter of why. Lets not even bring up the crusades. QuoteDesperate people do desperate deeds. ----DESPERATE PEOPLE USE DESPERATE AND EXAGERATED WORDS. Well I have found some quotes from the bible...I think you are the desperate one...Unless you stone people for sleeping around, or kill your kids if they mouth off. Im at work, so I don't have time to pick apart everything. Chirstianity is just as "evil" as any other religion. And has probley killed more."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #35 July 7, 2005 QuoteGood points Ron. Would you also say that since in some middle eastern countries religion and government are married that it in a way justifies these terrorist attacks. They would missinterpert statements from the Quran as justifiable acts in order to protect their country and way of life. Some Countries do....Some don't. I think the major problem is the religous nutbags in ANY religion. It seems that in areas that are lower on the economic strata you seem to have more looking to and blindly following a religion. When was the last time you heard a 19 year old suicide bomber that was last seen listening to an Ipod, and playing with a portable playstation? Desperation leads to desperate acts."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Casurf1978 0 #36 July 7, 2005 Correct me if I'm wrong but I read some where that there were a few instances of suicide bombers during the Cuban revolution. They didn't target civilians but rather high ranking Batista military officials. I would also say that suicide bombers are not as prevalent in our culture because of the way we view the act of suicide. If it were somewhat acceptable I'm sure it would be more common. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frenchy68 0 #37 July 7, 2005 Granted. However, you have to take the means of delivery into consideration. I believe that if Al Qaeda was given an air force, army and navy, that they would much rather use them than suicide bombers. The constant pounding of England during the Battle of England, as well as the bombing of Dresden, Tokyo, etc... was much more effective in terms of sheer destruction than what suicide bombers can ever accomplish. Some groups in the muslim world believe that then end justifies the means, and find that suicide bombers are the only (or most effective) mean at their disposal. What interests me is what turns a person to volunteer to blow him/herself up for that belief. And I believe that until we do understand that process, we will not have a single chance of stopping it. As you mentioned, if it were a couple of isolated cases, such as Tim McVeigh, it could be blamed on the madness of an individual. But there are so many available as human bombs! Why? How does one get to that point? IMO "For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Steel 0 #38 July 7, 2005 QuoteCorrect me if I'm wrong but I read some where that there were a few instances of suicide bombers during the Cuban revolution. They didn't target civilians but rather high ranking Batista military officials. I would also say that suicide bombers are not as prevalent in our culture because of the way we view the act of suicide. If it were somewhat acceptable I'm sure it would be more common. If there were it would be news to me. But that also goes back to what I said about a few random acts not being enough for a generalization. I am sure that there were NOT a significant enough number of suicidal Cubans to create a group of psychos.If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass. Can't think of anything I need No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound. Nothing to eat, no books to read. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #39 July 7, 2005 I must have posted this at least 5 times in the past refuting the same old attacks you and others bring against the Bible. The Bible is not just a book of morals from front to back. It is also a history book. All of these quotes you & Ron bring must be brought into “context.” I’m sure that’s also the case with the Quran. An understanding of the differences in the laws of the Old Testament is important. Laws enforced by the Nation of Israel are not necessarily “God’s” laws. QuoteThe commands of the Old Testament are divided generally into moral law, ceremonial law and civil law. The moral laws (e.g., the 10 commandments) remain in effect and few people would question that. The ceremonial law (sacrificing 2 oxen, etc.) was fulfilled in Jesus' sacrificial death and the New Testament teaches that it is not binding anymore. The civil law (stoning for adultery, etc.) was the law of the nation of Israel, which operated as a Theocracy, and is not the civil law of any other nation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eaglenrider 0 #40 July 7, 2005 that a certain group of people targets all other religions for obliteration? __________________________________________________ The religious texts of the Jews also spellout such beliefs. As a matter of fact, Israel was founded on "terrorist" attacks and those attacks were responsible for the coining of the word "terrorism". Ya see, and this is amazing to me, before Israel came into existence there were no reports of "terrorist attacks". Could it be that the creation of the Jewish homeland in disobedience of their God is the act responsible for lack of peace throughout the world? I don't know. I am certain,and it is a fact ,that there was never a report of "terrorist attacks" until the Jews began to resettle Palestine. Blues, Cliff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #41 July 7, 2005 QuoteI must have posted this at least 5 times in the past refuting the same old attacks you and others bring against the Bible. The Bible is not just a book of morals from front to back. It is also a history book. All of these quotes you & Ron bring must be brought into “context.” I’m sure that’s also the case with the Quran. An understanding of the differences in the laws of the Old Testament is important. Laws enforced by the Nation of Israel are not necessarily “God’s” laws. In this case, he asked why the Quran and Muslims were so violent.... The quotes just go to show that the Bible says many of the same things he claimed the Quran said. And BOTH religions have had people kill in the name of 'God'. We just provided quotes from one work to counter another."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,402 #42 July 7, 2005 >ceremonial law (sacrificing 2 oxen, etc.) was fulfilled in Jesus' > sacrificial death and the New Testament teaches that it is not > binding anymore. Deuteronomy 12:32 - Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it. Revelation 22: 18-19 - For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. But despite all that I agree with you. It _is_ a combination moral guide, ancient history, and foundation of a religion. Some things cannot be taken 100% seriously; heck, even if you believe in Genesis as written, Genesis 1 and 2 contradict each other. People who take it literally are making the same mistake as people who claim the Koran advocates death and destruction. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Casurf1978 0 #43 July 7, 2005 QuoteThe war in Iraq was talk for 12yrs before action was taken. Sometimes words need to be followed up by action. Agreed, but to blindly go into a situation w/o having a plan with an end game or knowing your enemy is ignorant and stupid. Like Sun Tzu said: "Know the enemy and know yourself; in a hundred battles you will never be in peril. When you are ignorant of the enemy but know yourself your chances of winning are equal. If ignorant both of the enemy and of yourself, you are certain in every battle to be in peril" It seem the terrorist know more about us than we do about them. They knew when and where to strike in order to cause the most amount of fear and terror. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #44 July 7, 2005 QuoteDeuteronomy 12:32 - Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it. Revelation 22: 18-19 - For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. I guess you’re saying that the New Testament goes against what God commanded in the Old Testament with regard to adding to it. Unless, Jesus was who he claimed to be. QuoteBut despite all that I agree with you. It _is_ a combination moral guide, ancient history, and foundation of a religion. Some things cannot be taken 100% seriously; heck, even if you believe in Genesis as written, Genesis 1 and 2 contradict each other. People who take it literally are making the same mistake as people who claim the Koran advocates death and destruction. Don't Gen. 1 and 2 present contradictory creation accounts? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #45 July 7, 2005 QuoteIn this case, he asked why the Quran and Muslims were so violent.... The quotes just go to show that the Bible says many of the same things he claimed the Quran said. And BOTH religions have had people kill in the name of 'God'. We just provided quotes from one work to counter another. It would be interesting to compare the principle teachings of Jesus & Muhammad. [e.g. Muhammad killed, advocated killing, and came about as a warrior; Jesus came from lowly beginnings, lived sinless and only advocated peace.) I’m talking about the principals of the religions, not what people have done with them (right or wrong). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,402 #46 July 7, 2005 >Don't Gen. 1 and 2 present contradictory creation accounts? OK, then. Did God create woman before or after the animals? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #47 July 7, 2005 For what this is worth... In Saudi Arabia: 1) During prayer time, if you are caught walking the street you go to jail. 2) If a non-Muslim goes to a "chop-chop" square (where they do beheadings), the crowd will force you right up to the executioner so that you get blood on you. Pretty extreme stuff, and they're trying to export this religion. I still don't understand why we aren't going after the money instead of the small guys with guns in their hands.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #48 July 7, 2005 Quote>Don't Gen. 1 and 2 present contradictory creation accounts? OK, then. Did God create woman before or after the animals? You know....who cares? What's the important stuff you should be focused on? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,402 #49 July 7, 2005 >You know....who cares? Not many people, because not many people believe in Genesis as written. It only becomes a problem when religious nuts try to teach it in place of science. >What's the important stuff you should be focused on? Right now? Impedance mismatch problems on the J4433 WinCE PWB and rework instructions for the J3018 VIO board, if you want to be technical. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jenfly00 0 #50 July 7, 2005 QuoteThe Catholic Church had its Crusades. The Muslims are in the midst of their Crusades right now. In another few years/decades they'll stop it, too. The catholic church had a little thing called the Spanish Inquisition (actually, it was world wide but the Spaniard's had a certain flair for it that made them memorable) that ran from 1478-1834. It was the church's official policy to torture people until they swore to accept the holy church and murder those that would not. While three and a half centuries could be termed a "few decades" it seems a bit of a stretch. jen----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
