Desire to witness a fatality

[KidWicked 0]

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they proved his point.

How?

If you told people you wanted to break your own leg, people who already have would tell you their experiences and that it is painful. Not because they are proud of it but because experience carries more weight than conjecture.

Like Bill said, it's the people who weighed in with "you can never understand the pain until you have a broken leg" who've proved his point (to continue your analogy). There's an element of the way they've chosen to reply to his post that comes off as elitist (as another poster put it), whether the person posting the message vehemently denies that they want to be in that "club" or not.

The original poster made an observation, and many of the replies fit the exact model of behavior that he observed and described. It's not absolute proof of his theory, but it's certainly illustrative of it.

Coreece: "You sound like some skinheads I know, but your prejudice is with Christians, not niggers..."

[teason 0]

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But if they said "you can never understand the pain until you have a broken leg" then they would be proving his point.

I don't want to be a stick in the mud but no, it doesn't.

How does the above statement infer membership to an elite club? Is it not an observation?
Here's another;
You don't know what a hotdog tastes like until you eat one. Does that infer that hotdog eaters are an elite club? obviously not.

It's mearly a statement of fact.

I think what you're trying to illustrate is that communication is more than words, it is also context. Context is found in tone, word choice, connotation etc.)
Context can also be applied by the reader.

If we believe that someone is talking down to us, everything they say will prove it. Not because they are but rather because we believe they are.

We've all been talked down to so I understand you're point. However, posts lack the proper amount of context from the poster to diffinitively tell if we are being talked down to or not.

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[teason 0]

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the OP hasn't clarified what he meant

The OP

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Judging by what other people have written, it does appear that witnessing a fatality puts you into that "elite" death club. You guys have proven this to me without even realising it!

That comment adds more dimension to his origional post.
I'll chose #6 which is "I think people like to brag about seeing death because it make them feel superior. I'll make a post that makes people talk about fatalities and then use it to prove my point the people like to talk about fatalities. I'll call it bragging to strengthen my point!"

Making a comment about wanting to see someone die will obviously anger those who have and make them talk about the experience of watching someone die.
That's a no brainer.
Then claiming that peolpe like to brag about seeing fatilities and using those posts as proof is so freakin low!

God! I dispise that type of point making, it is low brow.
To be honest, I don't care about your individual beliefs as long as you know why you believe them!

When I first saw the post, I thought it to be a satire of how some use tragedy to satisfy their need to be in the limelight. That could have made for some great discussion.
His second post illustrated his true motivation. Superiority and self satisfaction. Devious argument techniques really burn my buscuit. It toys with the real issue. Trivializes the reality and leads lemmings deeper into ignorance.
If the OP has a real ability to debate, reason and defend his viewpoint, he would enter the fray instead of letting other argue for him.

I'm waiting.

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[Eiley 0]

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However, posts lack the proper amount of context from the poster to diffinitively tell if we are being talked down to or not.

Indeed. Same point as I was making a few posts up about the OP.

Again, the danger of the written word. Do all the people above who have said "I wish I had never seen it" mean:

1. "I wish I had never seen it" OR
2. "I wish it had never happened"?

Obviously, for some people it will be both, but for many it will only be the second. For them, there is a difference between the literal meaning of their words and the meaning they intended to convey.

nothing to see here

[teason 0]

However, #1 causes PTSD.
Not a pleasent thing to go through.

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[Eiley 0]

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However, #1 causes PTSD.
Not a pleasent thing to go through.

#1 may cause PTSD.

#1 may also give peace in certain circumstances.

nothing to see here

[SupaFreeFly 0]

having seen two guy go in in thailand, i have to say, it totally changed my outlook on the sport, an the fact that you wanna c that, man i dont know what to say other than thats extremly messed up. Watching your friends die is not cool, its not a rush, its a sick feeling inside that dont go away, an a sound that stays with you forever.

-Oh shit were am i, were are my clothes???-

[yarpos 4]

who says there my credentials??

its just a sad fact for those that have to deal with it ie. anyone....i find it hard to comprehend a view of the world that assumes anyone with actual experience that opens their mouths on this topic is somehow bragging or playing childish "ive got one up on you games". given the topic, its so petty I cant understand how the thought even gets in peoples heads. I thought the purpose of forums was to share experiences and hopefully learn, thats what i come for...given my now outdated experience its primarily the latter for me.

anyway enuf said for me, as someone else has said I think this has probably been given way to much air time

regards, Steve

regards, Steve
the older I get...the better I was

[rhino 0]

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I have been skydiving a few years and I have a thought that I would like to share.
This might sound irrational. I find myself a bit eager to experience the rush of a skydiving fatality firsthand. Maybe I am being a drama whore, but I am amazed at how death brings about a sense of fellowship in our sport.

You need to take up golf... Knowing that consciously you want to see a death or long for it tells me that subconsciously you may in fact contribute to someone dying in our sport.

I see you as the type of person that sees a chest strap misrouted. Instead of speaking up you would follow that person out the door and free fly with them.

Your very mindset is deadly. For yourself and those around you that should be able to depend on you for pin checks and gear checks.

I hope you are not a rigger.

Retire.. Now...

Rhino

[SkyDekker 1,150]

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There is nothing fascinating about accidental death.

Well there is. Just look at the popularity of ogrish pictures being posted, even on this forum. It is kind of interesting to see, that when it hits close to home, people are all outraged.

I wonder what the reaction is on a motorcycle forum when you tell them you like posting and seeing pictures of the aftermath of a severe motorcycle accident.

(not directly at you specifically, but you in general)

[Stardust 0]

Death is a pretty certain thing. Death is not new to skydiving or exclusive to skydiving. People also die crocheting in their rocking chairs.

I feel sad when I hear of a skydiver who has died, even if I've never met or even heard of him/her. Everybody has friends and family who will feel the void left behind by their absence.

I hope I never see a fatality. That would mean it has happened at my dropzone and that I knew them. It would be an extremely painful thing to have to deal with.

People talk about fatalities they have seen because it is cathartic. It also causes introspection and helps to prevent other accidents/incidents.

People should talk about fatalities they have seen. And we'll be able to recognize the people who are talking about them to garner attention for themselves.

Fly safe.
M.

"It is never easy to keep reaching for dreams. Strength and courage can sometimes be lonely friends. But those who reach walk in stardust."

[darrenspooner 0]

[However, #1 causes PTSD.]

Exposure to a traumatic event in itself does not cause PTSD. PTSD is generally seen to result from the interaction between a person's personality and exposure to a traumatic event in which the person's response involved intense fear, helplessness or horror.

Does anyone who has posted here have PTSD as a consequence of seeing someone go in? http://www.mental-health-today.com/ptsd/dsm.htm

[JohnnyD 0]

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As for guessing the motives of the OP, The thread is called "Desire to witness a fatality". If it isn't tounge in cheek, what is it?

Therein, the dangers of the internet. I have seen at least 5 interpretations of his initial post so far, ranging from psychopathic to mildly disturbing:

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1. I am willing to sabotage someone's gear so that I can see a fatality.

2. I hope someone dies at my DZ soon so that I can see a fatality.

3. When the next fatality happens at my DZ, I hope I am there to see it.

4. I am going to say something controversial to stir up shit.

5. I am going to conduct a psychological experiment to see how many people I can get to pipe up "I've seen someone go in".

----------------------------------------------------------

Now, my money is on number 3, but it is only a guess because the OP hasn't clarified what he meant. Until he does, we can only draw our own inferences.

I think he has. The point is that skydivers hold the witnessing of a fatality as a sort of a right of passage. The strange thing about it is that you are not allowed to wonder about that right of passage. Many people will quit jumping after witnessing a fatality. Those that stay around can say NSTIW and I got back in the plane because this is who I am. It seperates the tourists from the lifers in a sense. The caveat is that it comes at the expense of one of our own.

[JohnnyD 0]

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There is nothing fascinating about accidental death.

Well there is. Just look at the popularity of ogrish pictures being posted, even on this forum. It is kind of interesting to see, that when it hits close to home, people are all outraged.

I wonder what the reaction is on a motorcycle forum when you tell them you like posting and seeing pictures of the aftermath of a severe motorcycle accident.

(not directly at you specifically, but you in general)

-bolding was my emphasis

That is exactly the point. If he would have posted: "Being in a warzone is the best job ever. I'm just disappointed I haven't been able to shoot some Hajis yet" We would call him a hero and thank him for all he does. But if he says: "I'm going to watch some military training exercises hoping to see some carnage" He's a sick bastard. Its not the facination with the what so much as it is the disgust with the who.

[IanHarrop 37]

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The point is that skydivers hold the witnessing of a fatality as a sort of a right of passage.

I'm sorry but I don't agree. I've been around skydiving for some time and in my experience this statement is simply false.

"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

[mattsplat 0]

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I do believe, that you may require some help!.
.



.

I just wanted this unique individual to see this post again.

[rehmwa 2]

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How can you expect those who respond to be dispassionate?

Nice question and applicable in general - the answer is simple:

- By choosing to be an adult about it -

It's never someone else's fault when a person loses their composure. It's always that person that lost it. Blaming the instigator is what a child does and it only encourages the instigator to do more. One chooses to let their 'passion' direct their actions - sometimes it's justified, but it's always a choice.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[teason 0]

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It's never someone else's fault when a person loses their composure. It's always that person that lost it. Blaming the instigator is what a child does and it only encourages the instigator to do more. One chooses to let their 'passion' direct their actions - sometimes it's justified, but it's always a choice.

True enough.

A bullseye doesn't asks to be shot, it is the marksman who choses to shoot it.
My point was if you don't want people to shoot, take off the bulleyes.

This thread's premis is a lightening rod for emotional discourse. To expect people to be dispassionate is dillusional.

I don't think getting emotional over death is akin to acting like a child.
If yor mother died and I made an off colour remark to you about it, should I be surprised when you get upset an call me an ass?
Should I come to the conclusion that you're not "choosing to be an adult about it"?

Oddly enough, it was the OP making the "motive fallacy" that pressed my hot button but the observation still stands.

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[teason 0]

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#1 may also give peace in certain circumstances.

Uh .. ok, how?
Can darrenspooner answer this one?
I can't fathom feeling a sense of peace after watching someone get mangled by a bus ... unless you mean a sociopath.
I grew up with a guy like that. Told a friend of mine he got a rush from killing people.

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[Antidote 0]

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BINGO! We have a winner. I knew the first thing people would do in their attempt to flame me is to brag about the fatalities they have witnessed and how "awful" it was.

Throwing up is no fun. Walking around in a daze is no fun. Constantly worrying about your friends and family is no fun.

Having fun filled innocence replaced with hard hitting reality is not fun either.

Going to funerals is definitely no joy either. Watching friends be shocked, cry and retract into themselves - no fun.

In short - you guessed it - no fun.

And wtf do you think there's a rush of emotions? People react differently.

And trust me, feeling nothing at all - *nothing* for weeks afterwards - no fun either.

It's not about an elite club of a badge of honour or some bullshit like that. It's not about gaining anything.

It's about having something violently and forcefully ripped out.

How's that for fun, dude?

[teason 0]

Do you notice his quotation marks around the word awful?
Those are generall termed as sneer quotes. It means that it wasn't awful at all.
Cheap technique. It's an alternative to real point making.

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[Antidote 0]

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Like Bill said, it's the people who weighed in with "you can never understand the pain until you have a broken leg" who've proved his point (to continue your analogy). There's an element of the way they've chosen to reply to his post that comes off as elitist (as another poster put it), whether the person posting the message vehemently denies that they want to be in that "club" or not.

That's kinda a trick, ain't it?

If someone hasn't got the experience, they can't tell ya about the results. If they do, and tell, then they do it just to brag, confirming the original posters point.

It's unfair and unbalanced to put up such an argument It's a tautology in essence. I call it invalid.

While I can understand a morbid curiosity about "how would it feel?" (I wondered myself) - we don't control all our thoughts after all, I cannot understand the need for creating a tautology such as the one above.

Jealousy? I hope not. I sincerely hope not.

[happythoughts 0]

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How can you expect those who respond to be dispassionate?

Nice question and applicable in general - the answer is simple:

- By choosing to be an adult about it -

It speech had no value or impact, then "hate speech" would not be a crime and politicians would be a lot quieter. There are an almost infinite number of ways to be verbally offensive. I don't believe that the target of abuse has to be a racial or gender group for a reaction to be justified.

The target group was skydivers. This anonymous troll intentionally posted comments for the purpose of being inflammatory.

Why it is the responsibility of the recipient of abuse, of any type, to ignore it?

(edited for grammar)

[Eiley 0]

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[However, #1 causes PTSD.]

Exposure to a traumatic event in itself does not cause PTSD. PTSD is generally seen to result from the interaction between a person's personality and exposure to a traumatic event in which the person's response involved intense fear, helplessness or horror.

Does anyone who has posted here have PTSD as a consequence of seeing someone go in? http://www.mental-health-today.com/ptsd/dsm.htm

Perhaps you should direct your post to the person who actually made the claim.

nothing to see here

[Antidote 0]

I noticed them and that was what created the angry tone in my post.

Those small quotation marks. A statement that says "I find all your feelings related to such an experience to be invalid. I laugh at them; I minimize them: I declare them to be nothing but exaggerated, created to have something to brag about. It's nothing."

I could have said "haha, wait 'til you experience it. Then *I* will laugh at you, I shall mock you and you shall experience most keenly my cynicism upon your bare, open vulnerable mind! All the shit you will have to wade through from now my friend - oh I'll extract such joy from watching it. Fuck dude, it's gonna be priceless to see you swallow and drown in it after what you've said".

That'd be a horrible thing to say for so many reasons. The main one being that I really don't want him to learn it, because the cost is too bloody high. Better he stay ignorant and happy (or just content or a little unhappy or whatever). No one should go in to teach someone a lesson. No one should be taught a lesson if they come out worse for it.

I know he's a troll at least in part. Although I'm usually relatively good at controlling myself, this stuff angers me quite a bit.