DEA agent shoots himself in foot while giving a gun safety talk in school

[Avion 0]

This one of those beautiful examples of professional stupidity.

Several things come to mind after watching the vid and reading the posts.

1) As already been said: Always presume a gun is loaded, then check it.

2) Why did the guy leave the clip in, doh! When clearing a gun, drop the clip, then operate the slide to clear the chamber.

3) Why and how did the guy operate the trigger???

4) It obvious to me, that he immeadiately when in to shock. Pretending he was alright out of embarassment of being so stupid. Thank God, he shot himself instead of someone else particularly a child.

5) I agree with the others that said, having loaded firearm in a classroom for a safety class was somebodies very poor judgement. There ought to be a law prohibiting such an act, unless it is carry by the school's on duty security personal.

Finally, always avoid pointing a firearm at anything unless you intend to shoot it. I have almost been shot in just this manner. When a teenager, I was visiting a friend with a 22 semi-automatic rifle. As he was showing it to me, he operated the slide until bullets stopped coming out of the gun. Then, he pointed the barrel at my right thigh, and pulled the trigger. The gun when 'click', and I got angry. To calm me down, he then gave it to me to look at, I operated the slide an pointed it at him. He squimed around in every direction, squeeling, "Not me, not me!" So, I pointed the gun out the window and pulled the trigger, BANG! "You shot my dad truck!" he managed to exclaim Then, I really got angry, and chased him around for a while trying to club him.

I have been handling firearms off and on for over thirty years. During that time, on a few occasions I have had firearms discharge prematurely, as in firing before being fully raised to a target. The moral of my stories is:

Always presume a gun is loaded, and always point a gun in a safe direction, even when you think its unloaded.

Cheers

[jeiber 0]

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I would propose shotguns for teachers and an AK47 for the principal.

Hmmm, interesting concept. I wonder what would have happened if the school trained a couple staff members in firearms usage, armed them and posted them near the door/metal detector while students arrived at school.

Granted, there certainly would have still been fatalities, but I wonder if it would have been 50-75% less if the 'school' had some way of defending itself, other than trying to simply run and hide...

I saw a t-shirt the other day that said, 'Peace through superior firepower'. I think I'm going to buy one...

Jeff

Shhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring!

[Lindsey 0]

It's not the mere usage of the gun that makes it bad, it is how it is used that counts.

I don't advocate taking people's guns away, so please don't get me wrong. But knowing people who want to carry guns to keep themselves safe, and who want their children to carry guns because walking to your car is inherently *not* safe, this scenario always seems to enter my mind.

So say you're a woman walking to your car after a late class, and you notice a man following you. You are a little on edge so you walk faster, maybe into a lighted path. He walks faster too, keeping pace with you. What good is your gun doing you? Eventually he is right behind you....*right* behind you. Maybe he even puts a hand on your shoulder. You have a pistol. What good does it do you? At what point do you use it? If you threaten someone with it, you'd better be willing to shoot him. At what point is he enough of a threat that you are willing to shoot him? If your fear has you prematurely shooting someone then YOU go to jail. If you wait until he actually attacks you physically then you're less likely to be effective with your weapon.

If you're a cop going after some kid who just killed 7 people, that's one thing. If you're a regular ol' person who thinks he/she needs a gun for protection, then the circumstances in which you might use that weapon are likely to be different.

Peace~
linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[AggieDave 6]

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So say you're a woman walking to your car after a late class, and you notice a man following you. You are a little on edge so you walk faster, maybe into a lighted path. He walks faster too, keeping pace with you. What good is your gun doing you? Eventually he is right behind you....*right* behind you. Maybe he even puts a hand on your shoulder. You have a pistol. What good does it do you? At what point do you use it?

Its painfully obvious that you have no clue on how to conduct yourself in a situation in which your life may or may not be in jeopordy.

I highly suggest you look for a self defense class that would cater to your ability and complete lack of training to get you up to speed, otherwise you will make the mistakes you just made explaining your scenerio.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Kennedy 0]

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=peace+through+superior+firepower&btnG=Google+Search

A very cool patch to go with your shirt
http://www.lifelibertyetc.com/product.aspx?pid=12

A very cool original take on the old saying
http://27.org/peaceshirt/

The one you probably saw
http://www.libertyoutlet.com/store/itemdetail.html?detailid=40

(of course I suggest spending your cash in your own neighborhood, but good luck finding this one. Oh yeah, and look for the made in the USA tag, too)

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Botellines 0]

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You do know how utterly ridiculous your posts are, right?

Either you simply are unable to understand what John is actually saying, which I doubt, or you are unable to debate his points so you put idiotic words in his mouth.

I think the latter is the case. I don't know why, since it's not that hard to disagree, but you resort to pointless tactics in your post, and make any possible contribution utterly useless. This arguing "for" the other side is getting real old, real fast.

please, spare me your rhetoric, get to the point.

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If I'm wrong, please, let me know. Did John, or any other anti-gun-control person suggest that children should have access to firearms while in school? Did John or anyone else suggest that all teachers must be armed?

Actually yes, you are wrong. JohnRich was refering to the incident in the Minnesota highschool and he literally said

What stopped the bad guy with the gun? Good guys that showed up with more guns. The presence of counter-fire capability ended the shooting spree. The shooter knew his gig was up.

and

And increasing the lead/air ratio in self defense to minimize casualties amongst the good guys, is a good thing.


Considering it was said in the context of a highschool, that counter-fire capabilities must surely come from either students or teachers (good guys). He also said that to increase the lead/air ratio among the good guys (rest of students and teachers) is a good thing.

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Oh, and as to your comment about armed teachers, I suggest you read up on Joel Myrick before declaring that you know best for all schools. I think there are several parents who would disagree with you.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Vice+Principal+Joel+Myrick&btnG=Search
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Vice+Principal+Joel+Myrick&ei=UTF-8&fr=FP-tab-web-t&fl=0&x=wrt
http://www.freecolorado.com/1999/10/myrick.html

I actually did, but i doubt you want to base your defense of gun ownership on isolated cases. If so, you should give up your toys for all the times that a teenager has stolen a legally owned gun from his father and go into a killing spree.
So, in other words we are back to the old debate of whether gun ownership saves more lives than it takes.

[Botellines 0]

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Its painfully obvious that you have no clue on how to conduct yourself in a situation in which your life may or may not be in jeopordy.

Actually, no one has a clue until we face that particular threat. And each threat is unique.

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I highly suggest you look for a self defense class that would cater to your ability and complete lack of training to get you up to speed, otherwise you will make the mistakes you just made explaining your scenerio.

A self defense class, although it will surely help, will not make anyone 100% accurate when assesing a threat. There will always be room to failure to use it properly.

[jeiber 0]

http://www.lifelibertyetc.com/product.aspx?pid=5

Just ordered one. Love the statement...

Jeff

Shhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring!

[Botellines 0]

I think the best for a woman in those cases is to have with her a non lethal weapon and the knowledge to use it. (tazer, pepper spray)
If worse comes to worse and you use it on the wrong person, it is always easier to apology to himself rather than to his family. And if properly used, it has enough stopping power to get you away from most trouble.

That is what my girlfriend hopefully will never have to use (pepper spray)

[flyclearjohn 0]

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So say you're a woman walking to your car after a late class, and you notice a man following you. You are a little on edge so you walk faster, maybe into a lighted path. He walks faster too, keeping pace with you. What good is your gun doing you? Eventually he is right behind you....*right* behind you. Maybe he even puts a hand on your shoulder. You have a pistol. What good does it do you? At what point do you use it?

Its painfully obvious that you have no clue on how to conduct yourself in a situation in which your life may or may not be in jeopordy.

I highly suggest you look for a self defense class that would cater to your ability and complete lack of training to get you up to speed, otherwise you will make the mistakes you just made explaining your scenerio.

I don't understand your disagreement, Dave. Splain it to us, please.

[Kennedy 0]

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please, spare me your rhetoric, get to the point.

I'd have said the same to you, but I know you don't have one.'

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So, in other words we are back to the old debate of whether gun ownership saves more lives than it takes.

That's only a debate to people too thick to read simple statistics. It's resolved to everyone else.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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[Kennedy 0]

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I think the best for a woman in those cases is to have with her a non lethal weapon and the knowledge to use it. (tazer, pepper spray)
If worse comes to worse and you use it on the wrong person, it is always easier to apology to himself rather than to his family. And if properly used, it has enough stopping power to get you away from most trouble.

That is what my girlfriend hopefully will never have to use (pepper spray)

Absolutely, utterly incorrect. Please, at least take one self defense course before offering advice on self defense to others. Those who wish to educate themselves might now know how bad your ideas really are.

By that late in the scenario, too many mistakes have been made to hope for the best solution. Anyone with any sort of real training would understand how to avoid letting it deteriorate so far.

Also, statistically, you are most likely to escape injury during an attack if you resist with a gun. After that is offering no resistance, then all other forms of active resistance.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Botellines 0]

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I'd have said the same to you, but I know you don't have one.'

That's only a debate to people too thick to read simple statistics. It's resolved to everyone else.

Dude, that looks like some sort of personal attack. Funny thing is that you don´t mention the rest of the post. The part where i prove you wrong.

By the way, what statistics do you imply i am too thick to understand, the one that prove your point or the one that proves my point. You know that there is life outside of NRA, right?

[Botellines 0]

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Absolutely, utterly incorrect. Please, at least take one self defense course before offering advice on self defense to others. Those who wish to educate themselves might now know how bad your ideas really are.

It is pretty risky to make asumptions about someone you have not ever met because more often than not you will be wrong. Guess what? this is not the exception. I assure you that i know a great deal about self defense, 9 years doing martial arts gives you a pretty good idea.

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By that late in the scenario, too many mistakes have been made to hope for the best solution.

you do realize that that is not what Linsey was asking, right?

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Anyone with any sort of real training would understand how to avoid letting it deteriorate so far.

Anyone with any training at all knows that shit happen, and many times and many things are well beyond your control.
Besides, if you think your training is so good, why do you need a gun?

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Also, statistically, you are most likely to escape injury during an attack if you resist with a gun.

Anything to prove your point?

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After that is offering no resistance, then all other forms of active resistance.

I guess you don´t consider a rape a sort of injury, because that is what will happen in the woman does not show resistance.

[AggieDave 6]

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I don't understand your disagreement, Dave. Splain it to us, please.

The fact that no course of action to identify as a threat or identify as a non-threat was taken until the potential threat had closed the distance. In a situation like the one stated time and distance is your best friend and your saving grace.

A couple quick tricks...on second thought no. I'm not giving out self defense techniques on the internet. The liability is too great.

If you got some self defense training then you would know some solutions that could buy you time to get away or how to fully engage the situation (even without a weapon) and hopefully come out on top.

However, 1 self defense class does not make someone who can defend themselves. Just like 1 tandem does not make a skydiver, although you will now be more aware of the situation and what some general course of actions might be.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[kallend 1,648]

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So say you're a woman walking to your car after a late class, and you notice a man following you. You are a little on edge so you walk faster, maybe into a lighted path. He walks faster too, keeping pace with you. What good is your gun doing you? Eventually he is right behind you....*right* behind you. Maybe he even puts a hand on your shoulder. You have a pistol. What good does it do you? At what point do you use it?

So you turn around and point your pistol at his chest, only to see that it's your class instructor, who just wants to make sure you get safely to your car...

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Kennedy 0]

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If I'm wrong, please, let me know. Did John, or any other anti-gun-control person suggest that children should have access to firearms while in school? Did John or anyone else suggest that all teachers must be armed?

Actually yes, you are wrong. JohnRich was refering to the incident in the Minnesota highschool and he literally said

What stopped the bad guy with the gun? Good guys that showed up with more guns. The presence of counter-fire capability ended the shooting spree. The shooter knew his gig was up.

and

And increasing the lead/air ratio in self defense to minimize casualties amongst the good guys, is a good thing.


Considering it was said in the context of a highschool, that counter-fire capabilities must surely come from either students or teachers (good guys). He also said that to increase the lead/air ratio among the good guys (rest of students and teachers) is a good thing.

OK, try to keep up. I asked if anyone had suggested students be allowed access to firearms during school. The answer is no. I asked if anyone suggested all teachers must be armed with firearms. Again, the answer is no.

If you want to "prove me wrong," you have to actually answer my questions.

John suggested that if a teacher wants access to a firearm in school, it should be allowed. You do understand that is not the same thing as issuing them to every staff member, right? You are capable of understanding that difference, yes?

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Oh, and as to your comment about armed teachers, I suggest you read up on Joel Myrick before declaring that you know best for all schools. I think there are several parents who would disagree with you.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=Vice+Principal+Joel+Myrick&btnG=Search
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Vice+Principal+Joel+Myrick&ei=UTF-8&fr=FP-tab-web-t&fl=0&x=wrt
http://www.freecolorado.com/1999/10/myrick.html

I actually did, but i doubt you want to base your defense of gun ownership on isolated cases. If so, you should give up your toys for all the times that a teenager has stolen a legally owned gun from his father and go into a killing spree.

Isolated cases? I guess you need to define that, because one could easily argue that school shootings are isolated cases, so maybe you thinks everyone should be allowed guns in schools. Afterall, you wouldn't want to base your school polkicy on "isolated cases," would you?

Also, I wasn't defending gun ownership. I was supporting the idea that staff should be allowed access to firearms to defend themselves and students. Obviously there aren't more Myricks because what he did was illegal. Few teachers want to break the law for "isolated cases," don't you think? It's not like guns were at all the scenes and only helped in Myrick's case. The fact is guns in the hands of staff were only at one scene, and they allowed the staff to make the situation better.

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So, in other words we are back to the old debate of whether gun ownership saves more lives than it takes.

This is the most patently absurd notion I've read in quite some time, even from you. Guns are used to murder Americans in the neighborhood of nine to twelve thousand times each year. They are used in self defense millions of times each year to stop attacks by criminals.

There are several studies done on defensive gun uses (DGUs) and all have concluded huge numbers of self defense uses occur each year. The FBI puts murders by firearm at 9,638 for 2003.

So go ahead, tell me what statistics "prove me wrong." Go ahead and show that guns are used to take life more often than save life. I dare you.

ps - I'm sure you'll mention the US military killing/death, so I'll discount that now. First, that has nothing to do with guns in the USA, so I hope you can see how irrelevant those nubmers would be. Second, since the military is sucha completely different situation from US civilian life, one could easily argue that every gun in the military is used to save life. So please, either ignore military numbers and we can try for a constructive conversation, or use those numbers and prove my assertions correct.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[AggieDave 6]

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So you turn around and point your pistol at his chest, only to see that it's your class instructor, who just wants to make sure you get safely to your car...

Once again our Kallend proves he has no concept of self defense and proper courses of action. See, that is illegal, its not done, it is a felony to do so.

You said yourself you use your mind to keep out of situations, lets assume its not a friendly. How do you get out of this situation? Or was it all simply a lie and you actually have no clue how to conduct yourself in such a situation?

You've got time to think about it too. I'm off to the DZ, I won't be back until probably 9pm or so. So please take your time.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[DrunkMonkey 0]

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So say you're a woman walking to your car after a late class, and you notice a man following you. You are a little on edge so you walk faster, maybe into a lighted path. He walks faster too, keeping pace with you. What good is your gun doing you? Eventually he is right behind you....*right* behind you. Maybe he even puts a hand on your shoulder. You have a pistol. What good does it do you? At what point do you use it?

So you turn around and point your pistol at his chest, only to see that it's your class instructor, who just wants to make sure you get safely to your car...

A situation like that would be best served by a stun gun. Zap the fucker and find the nearest police call box.

But thanks to sentiments like Prof, Kallend's, Reichsmarshal Daley has decreed we cannot even possess stun guns or Tasers in Chicago.

PATHETIC.

[Botellines 0]

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The fact that no course of action to identify as a threat or identify as a non-threat was taken until the potential threat had closed the distance. In a situation like the one stated time and distance is your best friend and your saving grace.

I agree 100%, but not always you have the chance to do that.
Example, if a woman is walking to her car in a parking lot and there is no other cars nearby, she can suspect that any guy that aproach her may be up to no good. Then she could take the dfensive measures she thinks apropiate. However if a guy is walking in the same parking lot but this time it is full of other cars, she may think the guy is after her but he may just go to his car. My concern would be here to take measures with a lethal weapon against anyone that may means no harm. And you sometimes have to wait for the last moment to figure out his motives.
Haven´t you ever felt like someone was following you just to find out that he just happens to live close to where you live?

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If you got some self defense training then you would know some solutions that could buy you time to get away or how to fully engage the situation (even without a weapon) and hopefully come out on top.

However, 1 self defense class does not make someone who can defend themselves. Just like 1 tandem does not make a skydiver, although you will now be more aware of the situation and what some general course of actions might be.

Self defense classes will help, although it takes years to be proficient at it. I still think that a pepper spray can do wonders if used apropiately without incurring in the risk of killing someone if you missjudge the threat.

[Kennedy 0]

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So you turn around and point your pistol at his chest, only to see that it's your class instructor, who just wants to make sure you get safely to your car...

More self defense advice from the uninformed.

Actually, John there are a number of steps one could use in the "out walking alone when it's dark" scenario to force the situation to a favorable conclusion. For the same reason as Dave, I'll not be giving out self defense advice for outside the home, but rest assured there are better ways.

I know you are an intelligent man, so why must you continue to assume that CCW permit holders will pull their gun at every chance? I know you understand there are intermediate steps that we can take.

Besides, even if someone did take you ill-thought-out advice, simply following the four basic rules of gun safety would prevent a bad outcome.
(specifically rule four: always know your target and what lies beyond)

Responsoble gun owners don't shoot without positively identifying the target. (not all owners, not even all cops, follow this rule, but safe gun handlers do).

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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[Kennedy 0]

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Reichsmarshal Daley has decreed we cannot even possess stun guns or Tasers in Chicago.

Daley's been demoted from Furher? Good news, he's on the way down!

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[kelpdiver 2]

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So say you're a woman walking to your car after a late class, and you notice a man following you. You are a little on edge so you walk faster, maybe into a lighted path. He walks faster too, keeping pace with you. What good is your gun doing you? Eventually he is right behind you....*right* behind you. Maybe he even puts a hand on your shoulder. You have a pistol. What good does it do you? At what point do you use it?

So you turn around and point your pistol at his chest, only to see that it's your class instructor, who just wants to make sure you get safely to your car...

Nice instructor...stalks his student rather than calling out his intentions.

Lindsay - if the women in your area were considered likely to carry weapons, a prowler is far less likely to consider that sort of attack. At any point firearms enter the equation he's not going to think: "I can overpower her." He's thinking: "shit, I could get killed. I'll go find someone else."

This also explains why resisting with a gun is less likely to result in injury, but fighting back by other means is worse than just going passive. Though personally I think I would always opt to use any means available to the bitter end.

[flyclearjohn 0]

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I don't understand your disagreement, Dave. Splain it to us, please.

The fact that no course of action to identify as a threat or identify as a non-threat was taken until the potential threat had closed the distance. In a situation like the one stated time and distance is your best friend and your saving grace.

A couple quick tricks...on second thought no. I'm not giving out self defense techniques on the internet. The liability is too great.

If you got some self defense training then you would know some solutions that could buy you time to get away or how to fully engage the situation (even without a weapon) and hopefully come out on top.

However, 1 self defense class does not make someone who can defend themselves. Just like 1 tandem does not make a skydiver, although you will now be more aware of the situation and what some general course of actions might be.

In her example, she identified a potential threat and took two measures to minimize it. She moved into a lighted path and attempted to increase her distance from the potential threat. Rather than focus on her 'painfully obvious lack of a clue and complete lack of training' or general advice to take a self defense class, what, specifically, would you have her do? You already nixed the drawing down on the potential threat in another response (which, I believe, validated her point). What benefit was obtained from carrying a gun?

I'm not trying to beat up on you here, brother. I just don't see a valid objection to her senario and your concern about liability for pointers is, well, I don't believe we really need to go there now do we?

John

[DrunkMonkey 0]

The sad fact of the matter is that the Liberal intelligentsia of this country (moresoe in this argument that of states such as IL, CA, and NY) think that everyone other than them is a gun-toting nutjob.

Let us watch their tunes change when they're robbed at gunpoint or one of their family members are murdered.

Not everyone is a rational human being. Using your mind will get you killed when dealing with the ignorant and violent.

All the PhDs in the world don't mean a thing to a street thug with a 9mm.

I refuse to be a victim.

The Idiots in Chicago municipal government need to take their heads out of the sand.