We may be getting very close (Hibbert's Peak)

[jumpinfarmer 0]

Both ethanol and bio-diesel are helping now and hopefully more so in the future.

Almost every gasoline powered engine ever built will run on a 10% ethanol blend with no modification. there are also a lot of vehicles on the road now that can run on 85% ethanol or E85 as it's called. The biggest problem is that it isn't widely available.

Bio-diesel is becoming more common but is still mostly seen in the midwest, thats where most of the soybean processing plants are and soybean oil is the most common fuel stock for bio-diesel. That said bio-diesel can be made from many other sources such as used deep fry oil and dead animal renderings.

As for more gallons per acre from bio-diesel than ethanol I have to disagree. Ethanol production has exploded in the last few years and continues to grow rapidly as oil prices climb. Ethanols production has also become much more efficient and now has a net energy gain of around 60 to 65% over what it takes to produce. Ethanols main fuel stock is corn, although other grains are often used. Corn yields have risen greatly in the last decade while soybean and other oil seed yields haven't keep pace. Assuming that the average corn yield is 140 bushels an acre and three gallons of ethanol can be produced from a bushel of corn thats 420 gallons of ethanol per acre. As for bio-diesel. The average yield for soybeans is around 35 to 40 bushels per acre. Soybeans are around 25% oil. When refined down you only get around 30 to 40 gallons of bio-diesel per acre.

In my opinion a market for both needs to exist in order to maintain our system of agriculture as it's not a good practice to grow corn or soybeans continuously on the same land. There for a strong market needs to exist for both ethanol and bio-diesel, which are produced from the two most commonly grown crops in the US.

[billvon 2,444]

>As for bio-diesel. The average yield for soybeans is around 35 to 40
> bushels per acre. Soybeans are around 25% oil. When refined down
> you only get around 30 to 40 gallons of bio-diesel per acre.

Interesting. The data I had seen for rapeseed was around 300 gallons per acre, but even that is less than the number you gave for alcohol (420 gpa.) Even with alcohol containing slightly less energy per pound than biodiesel it sounds like you still come out ahead with alcohol.

> There for a strong market needs to exist for both ethanol and
>bio-diesel, which are produced from the two most commonly grown
> crops in the US.

Agreed; I think the challenge will be to make the transition smoothly. I think it would take a while to ramp up to produce even half our fuel from crops, and we have to start thinking about the issues surrounding that pretty soon (like where we get the water, given that we've already used the entire colorado river.)

[kallend 1,654]

The issues I see are:

1. Mineral oil is priced according to the cost of getting out of the ground and processing/distributing it. There may be some taxes thrown in but no account is given to its intrinsic value. We treat a finite resource as if it's infinite as far as pricing goes. Hence the SUV phenomenon and huge inefficient houses. The price of oil distorts the price levels of other energy sources too.

2. All renewable energy sources eventually lead back to the Sun. The amount of land that must be given over to replace the energy content of mineral oil is just tremendous if we do it directly or quasi directly (corn, soy, solar). Doing indirectly via natural forces (wind, waves) also will require huge infrastructure to harvest the energy.

3. Nuclear (fission) is political poison, and fusion is the source of the future, "always has been, always will be".

4. Tidal energy is free for the taking, but once again huge infrastructure is needed to extract amounts needed to replace oil.

5. Non renewable sources: coal - lots of energy there. "Clean" burning technology is available. Big CO2 problem however coal is utilized.

Most of the problems in replacing oil would be ameliorated if we'd only be more frugal in using energy. And that will only happen after item (1) above is fixed. As long as we get oil for less than its true value, why would we ever economize?

But damn, I paid $3.25/gal. for AVGAS yesterday - f**king price gougers.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[AndyMan 7]

The last year has seen a record increase in the number of acquisitions in the oil industry.

See here for example.

In the 80's, we saw a rash of acquisitions in the oil industry, the point then was to gain greater effeciencies through colosolidation. That's NOT what's going on now.

Companies with cash reserves enriched by the high oil prices are going on shopping sprees, buying up "reserves". Companies like Chevron Texaco are seeing their future supplies dwindling, so they're buying up smaller companies that DO have the assets.

That in itself is an excellent predictor of future oil prices. Since oil companies are paying a premium for the rights to drill the oil, we can certainly bet that they won't be selling that oil cheaply. The oil who's rights are being purchased will be sold very expensively.... Because the rights themselves are expensive.

Not a good sign for those who like to drive SUV's.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[billvon 2,444]

>There may be some taxes thrown in but no account is given to its intrinsic value.

Nor is any account taken of its intrinsic costs (cleanup of spills, land usage, pollution deaths.)

>coal - lots of energy there. "Clean" burning technology is available.

Clean being a relative term. A very, very clean plant puts 'only' a few pounds of uranium and thorium in the air ever year. Can you imagine the stink if a nuclear plant released even an ounce of a vaporized fuel rod? They'd evacuate the state. But if ten times the amount came from a coal power plant - well, that's just smoke!

>Most of the problems in replacing oil would be ameliorated if
>we'd only be more frugal in using energy.

Definitely. But some people won't give up their SUV's until they pry the keys from their cold, dead fingers.

[sfzombie13 307]

the thing everyone is missing here is industrial hemp. it produces more veg oil than anything we have available now, and the short growing season means that in warmer climes, you can grow it year round with 4-5 harvest per year. factor that in with replacing trees to make paper, and it is clearly the answer to most of our problems here. the problem, it's illegal. stupid, narrow-minded politicians piss me off. also, there was an article in discover magazine a couple of months ago about cheaper and innovative solar technology. they use strips of some kind of plastic-like stuff which is more efficient and a lot cheaper to make than panels. you could have enough to supply your house alone from the roof. the only thing you need is a good bank of batteries. the problem with solar power is people are thinking 120v ac. all appliances(except stove, dryer, water heater) run off of small dc current. we could convert all other appliances to these voltages and supply enough of our own energy to sell it back to electric companies. all we need is to have a switching system in the house to provide 4 different voltages switchable at the plate in the wall. of course, we would have to retro fit houses that are already built, but its a small price to pay for free energy and independence from oil. all of the buildings in all the cities could be covered with the stuff to gather enough energy to run the city. the solutions are out there now, and what really pisses me off is everyone is too complacent and comfortable to want a change. well, i hope everyone is ready for some real hard times, some people predict the oil to diminish drastically after 2008.

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Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

[Jimbo 0]

Quote

the thing everyone is missing here is industrial hemp. it produces more veg oil than anything we have available now, and the short growing season means that in warmer climes, you can grow it year round with 4-5 harvest per year. factor that in with replacing trees to make paper, and it is clearly the answer to most of our problems here.

Let's forget about here, are any other industrialized countries using it? I'm not saying that we can't be first, but I'd think that if hemp truely were the answer to our problems that others would be using it on the scale you described.

Quote

there was an article in discover magazine a couple of months ago about cheaper and innovative solar technology. they use strips of some kind of plastic-like stuff which is more efficient and a lot cheaper to make than panels. you could have enough to supply your house alone from the roof. the only thing you need is a good bank of batteries.

And a big fat bank account. Solar power isn't cheap, it's getting less expensive and more efficient every day, but I don't think it's ready for mass consumption just yet. Bill?

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[billvon 2,444]

>also, there was an article in discover magazine a couple of months
>ago about cheaper and innovative solar technology. they use strips
> of some kind of plastic-like stuff which is more efficient and a lot
> cheaper to make than panels.

These are like cold fusion. They sound great but don't actually work. When you read those articles you'll always notice some statement like "when this technology is commercialized it will be more efficient blah blah blah." Well, the market for solar is going through the roof (it's doubling every 18 months or something like that) - if it was commercially viable there'd be a market.

>the problem with solar power is people are thinking 120v ac. all
> appliances(except stove, dryer, water heater) run off of small dc
> current. we could convert all other appliances to these voltages and
> supply enough of our own energy to sell it back to electric
> companies.

You don't even have to do that. Inverters convert DC to AC and are really cheap nowadays (pushing 50 cents a watt.) And they'll sell back excess power to the utility if you connect them correctly.

>of course, we would have to retro fit houses that are already built . . .

Inverters are so much easier. You just have to add one breaker to your panel and run one Romex to the inverter.

[sfzombie13 307]

you guys are missing the point here. these strips are commercially viable now. the reason noone uses them is that the technology is being repressed by electric and oil companies because they don't have a hand in on it. they're not going to let money slip from their fingers. and on the hemp thing, a lot of people do use it, i can't remeber where i saw the stats on it. once again, govt this time is repressing the stuff because they are spending billions on a drug war and think that this is the first step toward legalization. whenever you have a bunch of old, socially repressed, rich assholes running your country, you are not going to see much change. all of these politicians are wealthy, and they'll never have to worry where the next meal is coming from, or whether they can pay for gas. i'm not, and i want my children to get a chance to grow old. as for the thing about adding a circuit, you're way off, couldn't be more wrong. i'm talking about voltage in dc to all outlets switchable from 3v to 12v. just like those cig lighter adapters for cars. look back to the history of electricity and if tesla would have been a better lobbyist than edison, we'd be using dc now, because it's more practical. we have the technology, bt are too scared to use it correctly. we're all gonna pay for it, it just makes me sick that noone is willing to try.

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Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

[Jimbo 0]

Quote

these strips are commercially viable now.

How much per watt do these strips cost? What about the rest of the system necessary to funnel the electricity from the strips to the outlet. Show me REAL LIFE stats here, I need more than an article in Discover to be convinced.

Quote

and on the hemp thing, a lot of people do use it, i can't remeber where i saw the stats on it.

Go find it and bring me proof of -one- industrialized country using hemp for anything more than a few novelty beers, shampoos, and blankets.

Quote

the reason noone uses them is that the technology is being repressed by electric and oil companies

govt this time is repressing the stuff

Not everything is a conspiracy.

Quote

as for the thing about adding a circuit, you're way off, couldn't be more wrong.

You do know that Bill is one of our resident tree-huggers and powers his home entirely with solar; you know that, right?

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[sfzombie13 307]

when people invented cars, there were a lot of people that said they weren't as good as horses. they were right, of course everyone knows that. the same with planes, man can't fly. and then space travel, we can't put a man on the moon. i could go on and on, but you get the point(i hope).
and it's not my job to prove anything about industrial hemp, that's been done for me. the uses are too many to put down here, but i will list a few: paper, clothing, paint, plastic, cosmetics, in fact over 25,000 environmentally friendly products. just because people don't take advantage of them doesn't mean it shouldn't be used.
as for the article, the reason i didn't quote numbers is because i don't have the article. i donate old magazines to my library when i get finished with them. i'm not a scientist or an engineer, just a concerned citizen.
it doesn't matter what the cost of the technology happens to be, if it saves the planet, it's worth it.
as far as bill using solar power, that's great. i do know one thing about that from shopping for a system for my home: the solar power that's in use today produces 120v ac. had you bothered to actually understand what i wrote, you would notice that i'm talking about producing a max of 12v dc. it doesn't take a lot of sunlight to produce that. as for the cost of producing that, look it up yourself.
when people quit saying we can't do something and start looking for ways to get them done, we all benefit.

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Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

[sfzombie13 307]

i do have some links for hemp production, http://mojo.calyx.net/~olsen/HEMP/IHA/iha01105.html
http://www.hemptraders.com/index.shtml
http://www.nutiva.com/hempinfo/hemp_101.php
http://www.uky.edu/Ag/AgEcon/pubs/res_other/hemp97.pdf
i was considering farming hemp. i live in wv, and in 2000, it was legalized here, but due to the ignorant feds, there has been no progress towards the end goal. in other words, it's legal, but you can't do it because it needs to be regulated.

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Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

[kallend 1,654]

Quote

you guys are missing the point here. these strips are commercially viable now. the reason noone uses them is that the technology is being repressed by electric and oil companies because they don't have a hand in on it. they're not going to let money slip from their fingers. and on the hemp thing, a lot of people do use it, i can't remeber where i saw the stats on it. once again, govt this time is repressing the stuff because they are spending billions on a drug war and think that this is the first step toward legalization. whenever you have a bunch of old, socially repressed, rich assholes running your country, you are not going to see much change. all of these politicians are wealthy, and they'll never have to worry where the next meal is coming from, or whether they can pay for gas. i'm not, and i want my children to get a chance to grow old. as for the thing about adding a circuit, you're way off, couldn't be more wrong. i'm talking about voltage in dc to all outlets switchable from 3v to 12v. just like those cig lighter adapters for cars. look back to the history of electricity and if tesla would have been a better lobbyist than edison, we'd be using dc now, because it's more practical. we have the technology, bt are too scared to use it correctly. we're all gonna pay for it, it just makes me sick that noone is willing to try.

Whether they are commercially viable or not, the simple fact remains that enormous areas of solar collectors are needed to replace our current usage of oil and other fossil fuels. That's just a consequence of the rate of insolation. To make solar energy viable requires not just good solar technology, but also significant reduction in our energy useage unless we wish to dedicate truly enormous areas of land to solar farms.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 2,444]

>these strips are commercially viable now.

No they're not. They don't sell as well as crystalline panele because they're only half as efficient (8% vs 15%.)

>the reason noone uses them is that the technology is being repressed by
>electric and oil companies because they don't have a hand in on it.

30% of my solar-PV panels are from BP. Shell is selling them now too.

>they're not going to let money slip from their fingers.

That's 100% right - which is why they're making solar panels now.

>as for the thing about adding a circuit, you're way off, couldn't be more
>wrong. i'm talking about voltage in dc to all outlets switchable from 3v to
> 12v.

Why? 120 volts is a lot easier than 12 volts. Although as you point out, there's nothing wrong with wiring for DC if you don't mind doing it.

Question for you - is your house solar powered?

[sfzombie13 307]

i don't own a house. it will be when i build it. may cost a little more, but it's worth it. as far as not being commercially viable, if it takes twice as many to make the same power and costs a quarter of the price, that's a good deal. but, as i said, i'm only in the research stage. you would obviously have better info than me. and as for 120v ac being easier, the only reason it would be any easier is that everything is in place for 120v ac. dc is easier, not to mention a lot safer in the smaller voltages i am talking about. if you disagree with that, stick your finger in an outlet, then grab your car battery.

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Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

>to artifically make the cost of fossil fuels too expensive

That, unfortunately, is one of the only things that WILL work. By putting massive taxes on oil you can do two things:

1. Encourage development of alternatives through normal capitalistic means

2. Prepare a 'buffer' for when oil prices go through the roof. If you tax gas 100%, then you can deal with a price increase up to 2X by simply cutting taxes. Since we have the cheapest gasoline on the planet, it's certainly something we could do today if we want to plan for the future.

Only opinion. My 'opinion' is supply and demand is a huge force and when price pressure "naturally" occurs, then the support structure will be driven accordingly. Your number 1 is good without the "massive" taxing. Your number 2 is needless manipulation of an economic structure that just plain needs people to stop twisting the dials.

Of course, we can always tax the hell out of everything. That solves all the world's problems.

Here's a definition relating to fission power just for the heck of it: "politically" unpopular = (emotionally unreasonable response without factual basis).

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 2,444]

>as far as not being commercially viable, if it takes twice as many to make
>the same power and costs a quarter of the price, that's a good deal.

Right now it takes twice as many to make the same power and they cost a little more per watt. About the only place that amorphous panels have made any inroads is in BIPV (building integrated PV) because they can be laminated onto structural elements like standing-seam metal roofs.

>dc is easier, not to mention a lot safer in the smaller voltages i am
>talking about. if you disagree with that, stick your finger in an outlet,
>then grab your car battery.

If you're really into safety, try shorting out a house outlet, then drop a screwdriver across your car battery. See which one starts a fire. LVDC is indeed safer to touch, but drastically increases the cost of wire (needs to be ten times thicker for the same power) and increases the chance of fire (due to the 10x increase in current.)

That's not to say it can't be done; many off-gridders wire for 12 volts and are happy with it. But, as you mention, the whole house has to be rewired, and you need twice as many outlets (12V outlets and 120VAC outlets.) Another problem is that there's no standard 12 volt outlet other than the cigarette lighter plug, and those things are miserable to work with. They don't work well for anything over about 30 watts.

[AndyMan 7]

A completely different thread, but I think the time is coming for a dedicated DC circuit in homes.

If I were to count all the "wall hog" transformers I've got currently plugged in, I'm pretty sure I'd have close to 30. If I add in the small appliances that have integrated transformers, I bet I'm close to 50 - and I've only got a small condo.

I can't realistically t roll my own because every device wants a different voltage.

At the very least, there should be a standard for small DC electronics. Once manufacturers follow a standard then there'll be a market for homebuilders/remodellers.

To get things back on track, does it really make sense to have a Solar Panel creating DC, converting it to AC until the outlet, only to plug in a wall-hog transformer to power all your electonics?

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[kallend 1,654]

Quote

A completely different thread, but I think the time is coming for a dedicated DC circuit in homes.

If I were to count all the "wall hog" transformers I've got currently plugged in, I'm pretty sure I'd have close to 30. If I add in the small appliances that have integrated transformers, I bet I'm close to 50 - and I've only got a small condo.

I can't realistically t roll my own because every device wants a different voltage.

At the very least, there should be a standard for small DC electronics. Once manufacturers follow a standard then there'll be a market for homebuilders/remodellers.

To get things back on track, does it really make sense to have a Solar Panel creating DC, converting it to AC until the outlet, only to plug in a wall-hog transformer to power all your electonics?

_Am

Generally a low grade "lamination steel" is used in cheap transformers. These have much higher energy losses than grain oriented Si steels or metglasses.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[sfzombie13 307]

that is the point i've been trying to make. change the industry standard. once you're the first to start doing this, you can make a shit-pot of money, or if you're not into that, you can donate your excess or invest in better products.
the only thing you need are a couple of big backers, or more small ones.
the only thing you need to make dc safe is a negative ground, just like in a house circuit. the thing that makes new wiring safe is the fact that the circuit is connected to a common ground. also, if all plugs stayed the same type, with a different prong, you could have a small step-down transformer at each outlet, from 12v to 3v. that covers most things. and you could have built in battery chargers integrated into the home, virtually eliminating the need for disposable batteries in as few as 25 years.
i have a lot of really good(in my opinion) ideas of how to solve an energy crisis for all of us, but they're just ideas. someone has to do something about this situation(the topic of the thread).
again, this is just my opinion.
and bill, i applaud anyone who actually puts some effort into solving the problem. good job.

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Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

[billvon 2,444]

>To get things back on track, does it really make sense to have a Solar
>Panel creating DC, converting it to AC until the outlet, only to plug in a
>wall-hog transformer to power all your electonics?

Well, what's the alternative? You could do a low-voltage DC-DC to convert 12 volts (actually 9-16 volts) into the 19 volts your laptop needs, or the 9 volts your answering machine needs, or the 5 volts your USB hub needs. You still need the wall wart.

The big issue is what the intermediate voltage is. All the wall warts I've designed have had <1ma idle current to reduce that sort of needless waste. Most operate from 120VAC because it's common. Some operate on 12VDC (i.e. car chargers.) It doesn't matter too much which one you pick; both can be made as efficient. 120VAC is harder to make but easier to transmit long distances, which is why we use it so much.

>At the very least, there should be a standard for small DC electronics.

I've been pushing that here for years. All I want is a standard voltage (say, 24 volts 2 amps) and connector (say a 5.0/2.5mm barrel jack.) But I can't even get my own company to agree on such standards.

[EricTheRed 0]

and this just in...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7190109/

illegible usually

[billvon 2,444]

And this today, from CNN:
-----------------------------
Oil hits record above $56
Sharper-than-expected drop in gasoline and heating oil inventories sends energy prices soaring.

March 16, 2005: 4:28 PM EST

NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - Oil prices hit a record high Wednesday after a report showed sharper-than-expected declines in gasoline and heating oil inventories.

Crude oil for April delivery jumped $1.41, or 2.6 percent, to close at $56.46 a barrel in New York, after reaching as high as $56.60 -- well above the previous record close of $55.17 set on Oct. 22 and the record trading high of $55.67 set on Oct. 25.

. . .

The EIA also raised its forecast for 2005 global oil demand to 84.3 million barrels a day and said the growth in demand, especially in China and the U.S., is responsible for the current high prices.

"I think this price move has been justified," Phil Flynn, senior market analyst at Alaron Trading told CNN/Money. "Demand in the world will probably hit the highest level in 30 years this summer."

"I want to pat (the EIA) on the back for admitting it," he added.

In a news conference Wednesday, President Bush said he was "concerned about the price of energy" and its dampening effect on the economy.

"Demand is outracing supply and supplies are getting tight," Bush said.
----------------------------------

He's just noticing this?

[vpozzoli 0]

Quote

Here is a good article on hybrids and diesel:

Hybrid and Diesel Cars

Interesting article, but rather out of date (by years). I believe the market share for diesel cars in Eruope is well over 50% by now. Ironically, Ford Europe is now delivering its cars with diesel engines as standard, conventional engines are still available but only on request , with the price of gasoline skyrocketing you'd have to be crazy (and rich) to actually ask for one!

Cheers,

Valentino