gmanpilot 0 #1 January 9, 2005 Which version of Liberalism do you more closely identify yourself with? EDIT: Well, I can't edit the poll, but I think this is how I wrote it: A= Classical Liberalism: old school; primary importance of the individual being unencumbered by the power of the state; the importance of the individual, and their freedom; life, liberty and property; property is a more compelling natural right than the right to participate in collective decision making; rejection of the “tyranny of the majority”. B= Present Day Liberalism: modern; argues for government regulation and partial intervention in economy; society has a responsibility to guarantee equal opportunity for each of its citizens; international institutions, such as the United Nations, are an implicit part of creating world peace and order; financial aid to poorer citizens._________________________________________ -There's always free cheese in a mouse trap. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #2 January 9, 2005 Could you please edit so that each option is shown in its enirety? Perhaps explaining the difference between the two in your post?Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gmanpilot 0 #3 January 9, 2005 I'll try._________________________________________ -There's always free cheese in a mouse trap. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #4 January 9, 2005 QuoteCould you please edit so that each option is shown in its enirety? Perhaps explaining the difference between the two in your post? Pretty clear to me. Yesterday, liberals were a good thing. They brought about great changes like civil rights and fair labor laws. But today, they represent crappy things, like baby killing, gay marriage, and calling handicapped people "handicapable". . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gmanpilot 0 #5 January 9, 2005 Ok, I'm stumped...how can I edit the poll to display correctly??_________________________________________ -There's always free cheese in a mouse trap. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EBSB52 0 #6 January 9, 2005 QuoteQuoteCould you please edit so that each option is shown in its enirety? Perhaps explaining the difference between the two in your post? Pretty clear to me. Yesterday, liberals were a good thing. They brought about great changes like civil rights and fair labor laws. They still do, who do you think opposed Bush's Overtime Bill/Law? Who backs labor unions and who destroys them? I fail to see your point here in regard to, "civil rights and fair labor laws." But today, they represent crappy things, like baby killing, gay marriage, and calling handicapped people "handicapable". "baby killing" - as in abortion rights, as opposed to loss of control of one's body? It must be one way or the other. "gay marriage" - as in the right to convert benefits and asets to another person the individual claims as their life partner? Seems pretty harmless to me. "handicappable" - as in what? Not sure what this means; expanding the definition of who is handicapped? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #7 January 9, 2005 ***Yesterday, liberals were a good thing. They brought about great changes like civil rights . . . But today, they represent crappy things, like . . . gay marriage . . ." Seems to me they haven't changed all that much since the sixties. Gays have rights too, and as long as straights can't get better than a fifty percent success rate with their marraiges, it seems rather hypocritical that we tell the gays that we know what makes a marriage, and they don't. And, I've never seen a liberal in favor of killing babies. Not one. Shrub apparently favors it, in Iraq, though. You don't really believe all the innocent civilians dying are all adults, do you? Of course, the Democratic party originally supported slavery, so, yes, they have changed a lot since then.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #8 January 9, 2005 QuoteOk, I'm stumped...how can I edit the poll to display correctly?? Your poll was described very clearly to start with. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #9 January 9, 2005 Quote Ok, I'm stumped...how can I edit the poll to display correctly?? I have no idea. Maybe if you re wrote the options in a post, so they could be read in their entirety, then an edit would no longer be necessary. Don't mean to be a pain in the ass, I just like to know what I vote for.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #10 January 9, 2005 Classical Liberalism is often referred to as Libertarianism in the modern context.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #11 January 9, 2005 QuoteOk, I'm stumped...how can I edit the poll to display correctly?? You can't. In titles and polls, their are no line breaks, so they just scroll off the right side. You can always read them by rolling your browser window over there, though. If you want to put everything into the standard post box, you ought to edit your first post to include the definitions.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #12 January 9, 2005 QuoteSeems to me they haven't changed all that much since the sixties. I'd take issue with that. Contrast: "I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character." with current pushes for affirmative action (i.e. judgment by color of skin).-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #13 January 9, 2005 QuoteYou can always read them by rolling your browser window over there, though. I don't seem to have the horizontal scroll bar on the poll questions. Is this something specific with Mozilla Firefox, or do other browsers have this limitation, as well?Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #14 January 9, 2005 QuoteQuoteYou can always read them by rolling your browser window over there, though. I don't seem to have the horizontal scroll bar on the poll questions. Is this something specific with Mozilla Firefox, or do other browsers have this limitation, as well? No idea. I'm using Safari, and I can scroll right until you exceed the line limitation of the poll itself, at which point your text is cut off (that's about three page widths down there). Perhaps just re-post the explanations into the thread?-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #15 January 9, 2005 QuoteNo idea. I'm using Safari, LOL Yeah, damn near everythimg works right on a Mac. Mozilla, which is superior to IE in most applications, IMO (although my roommate can't get it to work well on his Mac, go figure) is the next best thing, for those of us with PCs. Cuts way back on pop-ups, adware, etc.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #16 January 9, 2005 I go with the dictionary definition, myself. lib·er·al ( P ) 1. Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry. 2. Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded. 3. Of, relating to, or characteristic of liberalism. But what it really comes down to is what you do, as seen through the above definition. Power shortage? A conservative will lobby to reduce emissions controls so more power plants can be built. A liberal will put in a solar power system. Expensive gas? A conservative will push for more government support of drilling and reduction in regulations on refineries. A liberal will buy a diesel or a hybrid. Gay marriage? A conservative will try to define marriage so as to exclude some people. A liberal will want everyone to have the same rights. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gmanpilot 0 #17 January 9, 2005 QuoteI go with the dictionary definition, myself.... 3. Of, relating to, or characteristic of liberalism... That's kind of what I was trying to get at; whether or not folks identify with the original intent and definition of Liberalism. The definition of Liberalism and the real-world policies that are thought to be liberal seem to be, to me, worlds apart._________________________________________ -There's always free cheese in a mouse trap. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #18 January 9, 2005 QuoteThat's kind of what I was trying to get at; whether or not folks identify with the original intent and definition of Liberalism. The definition of Liberalism and the real-world policies that are thought to be liberal seem to be, to me, worlds apart. I don't see the differences you do. Today's "liberal" seems to fit very well with the definition given by Billvon IMO.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frenchy68 0 #19 January 9, 2005 QuoteBut today, they represent crappy things, like baby killing, gay marriage, and calling handicapped people "handicapable" How's that crappy? "For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #20 January 9, 2005 QuoteQuoteThat's kind of what I was trying to get at; whether or not folks identify with the original intent and definition of Liberalism. The definition of Liberalism and the real-world policies that are thought to be liberal seem to be, to me, worlds apart. I don't see the differences you do. Today's "liberal" seems to fit very well with the definition given by Billvon IMO. I see the difference very clearly. A liberal by the definition that billvon quoted, when confronted with a problem such as poverty, might look for new solutions to the problem that could benefit society as a whole. In reality, liberals are likely to tax the taxpayers to pay for programs that often perpetuate the problem, or pass legislation like affirmative action. linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #21 January 9, 2005 QuoteI go with the dictionary definition, myself. lib·er·al ( P ) 1. Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry. 2. Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded. 3. Of, relating to, or characteristic of liberalism. That is pretty much the definition I would go with for myself too, since I would probably be considered a liberal... But generally I don't like to label myself as such... since it seems to make people assume that I will automatically have "x" opinion on "x" issue (as labels of any kind tend to do). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #22 January 9, 2005 QuoteA liberal by the definition that billvon quoted, when confronted with a problem such as poverty, might look for new solutions to the problem that could benefit society as a whole. In reality, liberals are likely to tax the taxpayers to pay for programs that often perpetuate the problem, or pass legislation like affirmative action. I don't see that at all. We don't have unemployment insurance in this country for the benefit of unemployed individuals, we have UI for the benefit of those who still have their jobs, because if you begin taking money out of the economy, the effects, including unemployment, are going to be exponential. Personally, I favor certain social programs, because I understand that the money they cost will be made back in the long run with a more productive society that is better qualified to participate in an international economy in the future. I don't see liberal solutions perpetuating problems.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EBSB52 0 #23 January 9, 2005 QuoteClassical Liberalism is often referred to as Libertarianism in the modern context. Wait, I'venever head that and look at them as polar opposites. The Libertarians answer to social problems (health, etc) is to let the church dispose of them w/o any/much governmental help. Modern day Libertarianism is akin to the neo-cons IMO. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gmanpilot 0 #24 January 9, 2005 QuoteToday's "liberal" seems to fit very well with the definition given by Billvon IMO. That's exactly what I am trying to define with my poll, whether or not todays Liberal (within the skydiving community at least) truly identifies with the classical definition of Liberalism or the present-day, US version of Liberalism. I would imagine the founders of Liberal Thinking would not recognize todays Liberal._________________________________________ -There's always free cheese in a mouse trap. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gmanpilot 0 #25 January 9, 2005 QuoteIn Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Classical Liberalism is often referred to as Libertarianism in the modern context. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wait, I've never head that and look at them as polar opposites. I think Tom's reference is dead on._________________________________________ -There's always free cheese in a mouse trap. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
