dorbie 0 #51 January 5, 2005 QuoteQuoteThis was the inevitable result of the Patriot act... I agree that many laws enacted with good intent have been subverted by overzealous law enforcement. I hope this DA loses this case. Yea but some dumb nutsack intentionally pointing a laser at a jet deserves some form of severe rebuke and real punishment. It all depends how this gets spun in court, I don't buy the hysterical B.S. about the pilot being blinded. That seems very unlikely on the face of it. You have a hand held laser of modest power and a little beam spread there's no way you'd hand hold that on a cockpit at distance without some equipment but I don't know what the effect looked like from the cockpit. It would potentially be very distracting, that alone and questions he should have been asking himself over what it looked like to the pilot should be enough to land this guy in jail if this was intentional. I get pissed off with some dumb dickhead shining a laser pointer at the cinema screen, catching one shit for brains who shone it at a jet airliner is a good thing. The punishment seems severe but it's like a lot of crime & punishment in the US. This is not a patriot act issue, it's the politicization and flagrant ambition of law enforcement and prosecution officials in the US. The media plays right into this never seriously questioning their more grandiose accusations. They'll happily charge someone with vehicular manslaughter for speeding into an accident and all the other dumb sheep hearing this on TV never stop to think that they've all sped at one point or another and there but for the grace of God go them. There's probably some lesser charge that could be leveled at this guy but the prosecution is gonna try for a home run by filing an inappropriate charge because it's the American way (for a DA to feather his nest) and always has been. Let's also remember that this is a case going to trial, this may be the result of the guy not pleading to a lesser charge, another popular tactic, so the guy doesn't fancy some well deserved jail time and decides to take his chances with a jury on the maximum charge the DA could trump up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #52 January 5, 2005 I'm in 100% agreement with everything you said! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,123 #53 January 6, 2005 QuoteThis is not a patriot act issue, it's the politicization and flagrant ambition of law enforcement and prosecution officials in the US. The media plays right into this never seriously questioning their more grandiose accusations. They'll happily charge someone with vehicular manslaughter for speeding into an accident and all the other dumb sheep hearing this on TV never stop to think that they've all sped at one point or another and there but for the grace of God go them. There's probably some lesser charge that could be leveled at this guy but the prosecution is gonna try for a home run by filing an inappropriate charge because it's the American way (for a DA to feather his nest) and always has been. Let's also remember that this is a case going to trial, this may be the result of the guy not pleading to a lesser charge, another popular tactic, so the guy doesn't fancy some well deserved jail time and decides to take his chances with a jury on the maximum charge the DA could trump up. I think the issue is that several people opposed to the patriot Act have in some way predicted a scenario like this. Proponents of the Act countered that such would not happen. Now we are in a situation of the proponents saying, well it should not happent his way and the opponents saying, see told you so. It is unfortunate that the politicians did not foresee something like this happening, it has happened with many similar laws and regulations before. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #54 January 6, 2005 Does anyone remember not to long ago a US military helicopter was taking pictures of a Russian ship which was tracking a US submarine in US waters.... Anyway, the russian ship pointed a laser at the helicopter, and it permenantly blinded the Pilot. The pilot try to get lifetime disability from the US Government, but they refused it because they would have to admit there was a russian spy ship in US waters, something they wouldn't do. This Idea of blinding people with lasers has been around for awhile.... ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #55 January 6, 2005 QuoteNow we are in a situation of the proponents saying, well it should not happent his way and the opponents saying, see told you so. Gotta agree with both Dorbie (normally all the time) and Dekker (much more recently). The real shame is that those who opposed the act - based on expecting the worst in the people implementing the rules - were correct. At least for this example. I'd have thought better of regular humans and their ability to temper strict laws with common sense. ("common sense" there's another one - what exactly does that mean?) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #56 January 6, 2005 I know it's a bit off topic, but here is a link to part of the story I was talking about. http://www.aim.org/media_monitor/A587_0_2_0_C/ ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #57 January 6, 2005 QuoteDoes anyone remember not to long ago a US military helicopter was taking pictures of a Russian ship which was tracking a US submarine in US waters.... Anyway, the russian ship pointed a laser at the helicopter, and it permenantly blinded the Pilot. The pilot try to get lifetime disability from the US Government, but they refused it because they would have to admit there was a russian spy ship in US waters, something they wouldn't do. This Idea of blinding people with lasers has been around for awhile.... Yes I remember it. It didn't permanently blind the pilot, it gave him permanent vision problems and headaches, and it would have been a very powerful military laser probably mounted on a tripod with sight etc. not a domestic laser pointer. The coast guard boarded and searched the ship. The search was incomplete because the crew refused access to one room and foolishly the U.S. didn't press the matter. Rendering the search useless. Then came the coverups. I don't think there's an issue with admitting spy ships exist, this is one reason Reagan extended territorial waters. I think there's a problem admitting there was an attack on a US aircraft by a Russian vessel and the accompanying international incident. The thing is, when you shine a laser at someone, they SEE the fricking laser and exactly where it's coming from. This was the case with the pilot in question, I think there were a couple of crew on the helo affected. From memory the pilot eventually sued the government who refused to acknowledge that his eye damage was the result of a service incident, I think he got congress involved etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #58 January 6, 2005 yup... read the article I posted. I was wrong, it was a US soldier on a canadian Helo. And for political reasons the US Government wouldn't blame the russians. The article says it was a range finder laser. All lasers can cause damage. Intensity and time of exposure will determine that damage. We have a laser we fire to test the distance of the moon every few days... If that thing hits you, you will vaporize . I agree a handheld laser won't do too much, but IMO this guy should get serious time. He was aware of what he was doing, and aware of the consequenses. What if the pilot temporarily got confused and crashed... killing him or people on the ground? ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #59 January 6, 2005 QuoteI think the issue is that several people opposed to the patriot Act have in some way predicted a scenario like this. Proponents of the Act countered that such would not happen. Now we are in a situation of the proponents saying, well it should not happent his way and the opponents saying, see told you so. The solution is not necessarily to throw out the Patriot Act, as it does include many needed things. The solution is to throw out the DA who is misusing the Patriot Act to charge minor offenses under the guise of "terrorism". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #60 January 6, 2005 Quote Think about how useful RICO became. F*in' hear, hear, hear. Powers granted WILL eventually get abused by the state. That's as inevitable as Newtonian physics. ."The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #61 January 6, 2005 QuoteWhat if the pilot temporarily got confused and crashed... killing him or people on the ground? What if you went out today, got drunk, drove home and crashed into a school bus full of kids, killing many of them? Gosh, we better arrest you right now before it happens! We shouldn't punish people based upon "what if's" - anything could be true in a "what if". The standard should be what actually happened. And in this case, what actually happened, is very minor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #62 January 6, 2005 What actually happened is serious enough as warrant some jail time if it was intentional and enough of the allegation is true. Your analogy is flawed a better one would have been if you had driven drunk and gotten away without crashing. You'd be charged with DUI not vehicular homicide. Similarly this guy is charged with interference in the operations of a commercial aircraft, not mass murder. He DID lase the aircraft, he's not being arrested purely because he might do something in future and never has. Reckless actions that have no consequences yet introduce risk that may have had consequences warrant attention. This guy did shine a laser at an aircraft and it allegedly distracted the pilot, he's not being arrested for something he hasn't done but might in the future. I'm happy let the court decide on the case based on the pilot's testimony, when this screwball's lawyer will get to quiz him under cross examination about genuine risk. Heck the pilot may sit there and say it had no effect on his flying, we don't know. He'll have his day in court. Sentencing also reflects the seriousness of the crime in individual instances so judges/juries have some discretion there too, 25 years is a maximum sentence. I don't know if/what the mandatories are on this one. It would be a pitty if you could direct laser pointers at aircraft and despite pilots saying there's a danger of distraction, you can walk away free as a bird. If your wife & kid were on an aircraft with some dickhead on the ground lasing the pilot for kicks would you be happy about it? Now multiply that by a few hundred people. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #63 January 6, 2005 When they're in congested airspace on final approach pilots are supposed to be looking out for other aircraft, worrying about midairs, the aircraft configuration, the instrumentation, airspeed, the microclimate, terrain, obstacles and their approach glide slope with the color of PAPI lights. If a laser flash distracts them from any of these things or affected their color perception then it represents a significant danger. This may not be a trivial matter when you think about it, we don't know what the pilots saw in the cockpit, but we do know that someone on the ground pointing a laser at a plane has a responsibility to consider the consequences of their actions. Consider all the incidents that were reported of similar idiots in other cities and it just takes one laser flash at the wrong time for a really bad day. I have to ask myself if this was deliberate then why would he do it, the plausible explanations are not favorable. I mean he wasn't doing this for zero effect, he could have lased the sky for that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #64 January 7, 2005 QuoteQuoteWhat if the pilot temporarily got confused and crashed... killing him or people on the ground? What if you went out today, got drunk, drove home and crashed into a school bus full of kids, killing many of them? Gosh, we better arrest you right now before it happens! We shouldn't punish people based upon "what if's" - anything could be true in a "what if". The standard should be what actually happened. And in this case, what actually happened, is very minor. WTF are you talking about Dude? Did you read my posts? I am makeing references to a GUY caught pointing a laser at a jet!!!! So, he shouldn't be arrested? His intent was to disrupt the pilots vision. In my business, when ever I walk into a facility, there is a sign on the door that makes it pretty clear what the consequences of screwing around with AT or ATC are. ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #65 January 7, 2005 QuoteI am makeing references to a GUY caught pointing a laser at a jet!!!! So, he shouldn't be arrested? His intent was to disrupt the pilots vision. I am trouble understanding how you jumped from the first statement to the last. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, only trying to follow the logic.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #66 January 7, 2005 QuoteQuoteI am makeing references to a GUY caught pointing a laser at a jet!!!! His intent was to disrupt the pilots vision. I am trouble understanding how you jumped from the first statement to the last. Yep, that's the problem I'm having here. Just because he was pointing, doesn't mean he intended harm. When I first bought a laser pointer, I was curious to see how far it would shine, and went outside at night and pointed it up and down the street at distant objects. Maybe this guy was just curious to see if it would shine far enough to put a dot on an aircraft. It doesn't automatically imply criminal intent. Stupid? Yes. Criminal? Not necessarily. The man's intentions should factor into the punishment. We should not automatically punish everyone by presuming the worst possible intentions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #67 January 10, 2005 http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=562&ncid=738&e=3&u=/ap/20050109/ap_on_hi_te/laser_alert Ubiquitous Lasers Pose Aviation Problem Quoteat least one company, which claims to be an "original equipment manufacturer," sells lasers to anyone with a credit card. A laser advertised as "strong enough to burn holes in a black trash bag" sells for $289. Lasers like those are "orders of magnitude stronger than what it takes to injure an eye," said William J. Ertle, president of Rockwell Laser Industries Inc., which sells protective eyewear to use with lasers. The fact that such lasers are available online is "scary and concerning," he said. Jerry Dennis, an FDA consumer safety officer who monitors lasers, said lasers sold by original equipment manufacturers "are strictly for use as components, rather than for use to the general public." "We are addressing that particular concern as best we can," he said. But "we don't control the sales. We regulate the products," Dennis said. "When the law was written, that was the extent of the authority given to us. QuoteSome pilots are asking whether there's a way to alert crews when a laser has targeted their plane. The FAA study, released in June, found that even the lowest-intensity lasers temporarily impaired the vision of most of 34 pilots it studied in a flight simulator. The U.S. Navy expects to roll out a detection device early this year for military use. It can be mounted to a plane's bulkhead and will alert a flight crew if their plane is being tracked by a laser. Under development for 2 1/2 years, the laser event recorder uses software algorithms to measure a laser's intensity and compute whether it could hurt a crew's eyes. _________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #68 January 10, 2005 QuoteQuoteI am makeing references to a GUY caught pointing a laser at a jet!!!! So, he shouldn't be arrested? His intent was to disrupt the pilots vision. I am trouble understanding how you jumped from the first statement to the last. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, only trying to follow the logic. John rich posted this: QuoteWhat if you went out today, got drunk, drove home and crashed into a school bus full of kids, killing many of them? Gosh, we better arrest you right now before it happens! What I am saying is, a guy in NJ got caught pointing a laser at a plane cockpit while it was on final. He was arrest and ought to be charged.... John is saying because nothing happened, he shouldn't be arrested. I say fuck that, it was this guys intent to disrupt the pilot! THrough the bastard in jail. ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #69 January 10, 2005 >We shouldn't punish people based upon "what if's" . . . What? "What if's" are what our foreign policy is BASED on! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #70 January 10, 2005 Quotea guy in NJ got caught pointing a laser at a plane cockpit while it was on final. He was arrest and ought to be charged.... John is saying because nothing happened, he shouldn't be arrested. Negative. I'm not saying he shouldn't be arrested and charged with something. I'm just saying he shouldn't be charged with a terrorist act as if he was intentionally trying to make the plane crash. There are shades of wrong between black and white. Someone who breaks the speed limit by 5 mph should be treated more leniently by the court than another who breaks it by 25 mph. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #71 January 12, 2005 BTW -- There were some here playing down the strength of the lasers being used.... THis is from CNN today!!! Any laser visible 25,000 feet away is no simple "Laser pointer" you would buy at 7-11!!!!! QuoteThe man, David Banach of Parsippany, said he had been using the device to point at the stars from his back yard. (Full story) The laser pointer, which sells for $119, is the most powerful that can be used in a public place without government regulation, according to Bigha, the company that manufactures it. It produces a bright green beam that can be seen up to 25,000 feet away, and is used by bird watchers, astronomers and lecturers to point out faraway objects. ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
