Famous Athiest, Now Believes In God (not 'christian' God)

[pajarito 0]

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Ok lets try that out. "due to their total lack of knowledge of the concept of 'God' the people must therefore be considered -snogleflaps-" Well its got a ring to it I'll give you that but I'm not sure its that practical, y'know what I mean.

Right. It does sound rather offensive. "You fu%&ing Snogleflap!" They might get upset. Although, if you weren't concerned with their feelings, really the word could work for anyone with a detrimental lack of knowledge in any topic.

[pajarito 0]

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Hey, unless, you weren't refering to me there were you?

I'm sure it was me. Kev and I don't agree on shit!

[winsor 187]

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Aaah this sucks. I just looked up the definition of disbelief and you guy's are right. I hate it when that happens.

Ok, I need a new word for the concept I'm trying to convey here people!!

Perhaps "nontheist."

I, personally, list myself as "Orthodox Infidel."


Blue skies,

Winsor

[jakee 1,257]

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Perhaps "nontheist."

Hmm, interesting, for some reason I've always thought of nontheist as being vaguely noncomittal, (maybe cos they sound the same) in the same vein as agnostic. Now that I think about it though there is no reason why that couldn't work.
Of course by now I've totally forgotten what I needed it for, but hey, theres always next time!

As for orthodox infidel, well, just doesn't quite fit with me. For one thing, who wants to be orthodox! And lets face it, I don't really care what names any organised religion might have for me just cause I dont believe.

Edit: Pajarito,

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"You fu%&ing Snogleflap!" They might get upset. Although, if you weren't concerned with their feelings, really the word could work for anyone with a detrimental lack of knowledge in any topic.

I think this might be where we start disgreeing again.

[PeteH 0]

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I just answered to fairies.
Yes, I'm agnostic about everything.

Hmm, Ok, well while I admire you for sticking to your argument in the face of obvious provocation I've got to ask: Have you ever made up your mind about anything in your entire life?
/reply]

The provocation was obvious, but I'm not kidding about my agnostism. Like I already quoted Socrates:
"I only know that I don't know anything"

Of course I've made several decisions.

An important decision was when I was 17 and officially separated from christian church.

I like to gamble and have made several decisions based on probabilities (since you probably thought that all decicions should be based on facts)

I also skydive because the reward is greater than the risk. Another example of risk management.

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Because of the lack of evidence I think (or believe if you want to use that term) it's (lots) more likely that fairies don't exist than they exist.

There are many people who are quite willing to show you photographs of fairies. Has anyone ever shown you a photo of God?

I've seen several photos of different gods and satan. These times anyone can make photographic "evidence" about anything.
I've also seen a document about the non-fixed pictures of fairies that two little girls took.
Photographs were not manipulated but the fairies were only drawn on paper. I think people took those real for years before the girls confessed.

[jakee 1,257]

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I like to gamble and have made several decisions based on probabilities (since you probably thought that all decicions should be based on facts)

Day to day decisions are one thing, if we waited to be certain of consequences before we acted we'd never get anything done.

I was talking about making your mind up about things that are (or are not). Not commiting yourself on an issue where you can't weigh up the evidence on either side is one thing but come on dude, not commiting yourself on anything remotely concerned with the supernatural? Fairies, gnomes, pixies, leprachauns, unicorns, centaurs, cyclops, ghosts, leviathans, dwarfs, elfs, trolls, pegasii, God, Titans, Olympians, ice giants, Aesir. You've got to have an opinion on at least one of those don't ya? So many different, often contradictory, beings, all supported by different, sometimes contradictory mythical traditions. Tell me you didn't look at at least one of those and think, 'Yeah, thats ones total bollocks'. C'mon, I'll even throw in Bigfoot for you!

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[3ringheathen 0]

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I haven't seen any evidence that fairies (mythological humanlike creatures with wings) exist or have existed.
But I know that lack of evidence doesn't prove that there are no fairies.

Because of the lack of evidence I think (or believe if you want to use that term) it's (lots) more likely that fairies don't exist than they exist.

Fair enough.
You call that agnosticism, and I call that atheism.
We're essentially on the same page, you just have a misconception about what atheism means to me.

I've never taken the position that I can prove that god doesn't exist. For all practical purposes, I don't believe. To me that's not agnosticism, it's atheism.
You say potato, I say tuber.
-Josh

If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me*
*Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

[3ringheathen 0]

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The only thing we know is that "he follows the evidence wherever it leads" so either he is lying (yeah, right) or he actually believes he has evidence enough.

Third possibility: He's made a reasoning mistake.
At 81, his mental abilities may be slipping. Until someone presents the evidence he's supposed to have followed, the safe bet is the logical fallacy that's already been discussed here.

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And no, I'm not going to respect some drunken bishop playing golf in a thunderstorm, what a moron.

I'm fairly certain that's a spoof article from The Onion or a similar source.

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But it's not very fashionable to believe in a god these days, that's for the redneck states, not the sophisticate.

Oh come on.
It's less fashionable than it used to be, but is still vastly more popular than not believing.
-Josh

If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me*
*Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

[3ringheathen 0]

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I would argue that a person or community with an utter lack of knowledge of theism could then only be described as atheist. They cannot be theist, since they know nothing of the concept, they cannot sit on the fence and be agnostic since to them there is no argument. They can only do what is natural, go through life with no knowledge of and therefore no belief in, God. Atheism.

OK. You're right with respect to how an outside observer with knowledge of the concept would describe them.
However, if you asked them about it, they'd say "Huh, what?"
-Josh

If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me*
*Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

[winsor 187]

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I haven't seen any evidence that fairies (mythological humanlike creatures with wings) exist or have existed.
But I know that lack of evidence doesn't prove that there are no fairies.

Because of the lack of evidence I think (or believe if you want to use that term) it's (lots) more likely that fairies don't exist than they exist.

Fair enough.
You call that agnosticism, and I call that atheism.
We're essentially on the same page, you just have a misconception about what atheism means to me.

I've never taken the position that I can prove that god doesn't exist. For all practical purposes, I don't believe. To me that's not agnosticism, it's atheism.
You say potato, I say tuber.
-Josh

What constitutes each category pretty much depends on who is cranking out the definition.

A common definition of atheism is generally one who claims proof of the non-existence of .

An agnostic is one who, for whatever reason, considers it beyond human ken to ascertain one way or another if exists.

Such people as find verification of the presence or absence of fantastic entities unworthy of consideration fall into neither category.

I have heard too many explanations of "The Truth" (tm) which claim every other variant is false to take any of them seriously. Rather than fret over which particular set of fairy tales is the True Way, I find them to be equally compelling. Put another way, it's all nonsense.


Blue skies,

Winsor

[3ringheathen 0]

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What constitutes each category pretty much depends on who is cranking out the definition.

A common definition of atheism is generally one who claims proof of the non-existence of .

An agnostic is one who, for whatever reason, considers it beyond human ken to ascertain one way or another if exists.

Such people as find verification of the presence or absence of fantastic entities unworthy of consideration fall into neither category.

I have heard too many explanations of "The Truth" (tm) which claim every other variant is false to take any of them seriously. Rather than fret over which particular set of fairy tales is the True Way, I find them to be equally compelling. Put another way, it's all nonsense.

Your take on this subject parallels mine fairly closely.
All of the labels have very limited utility.
It doesn't matter too much what label one chooses to describe their take on things, someone will misconstrue and/or misunderstand your position.

If you parse the meaning of your descriptor of choice, i.e: "orthodox infidel", it's a bit more fun than saying atheist, but essentially means the same thing. At least to me.

Ultimately, you end up being misunderstood or forced to elaborate.

C'est la vie.
-Josh

If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me*
*Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams.

[Skyrad 0]

If God was a proffesor of physics then the brightest of us would just be a couple of two year olds fighting over who he loves the most. For humans to understand the intelligence that created this universe is the ultimate exercise in conceite.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[quade 3]

On the flip side of that argument . . . if God doesn't exist at all, then a lot of time, thought and human lives certainly have been wasted on his behalf.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[pajarito 0]

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On the flip side of that argument . . . if God doesn't exist at all, then a lot of time, thought and human lives certainly have been wasted on his behalf.

Yup...
A monumental amount.

[kelpdiver 2]

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On the flip side of that argument . . . if God doesn't exist at all, then a lot of time, thought and human lives certainly have been wasted on his behalf.

Yup...
A monumental amount.

Everyone needs a hobby. It's not wasted time if it made your life more rewarding.

Certainly no worse than wasting time on skydiving. It's the attacks on each other in the name of the divine that is a great loss.

[kallend 1,644]

Well, it seems there was a Creation. Physics has nothing to say about the first instants of our universe**, and won't unless and until a theory of quantum gravity is developed and tested and found to be accurate.

Whether a Creation implies a Creator is a matter for theologians and philosophers.

** which is not to imply that there aren't other universes.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[PeteH 0]

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I was talking about making your mind up about things that are (or are not). Not commiting yourself on an issue where you can't weigh up the evidence on either side is one thing but come on dude, not commiting yourself on anything remotely concerned with the supernatural? Fairies, gnomes, pixies, leprachauns, unicorns, centaurs, cyclops, ghosts, leviathans, dwarfs, elfs, trolls, pegasii, God, Titans, Olympians, ice giants, Aesir. You've got to have an opinion on at least one of those don't ya? So many different, often contradictory, beings, all supported by different, sometimes contradictory mythical traditions. Tell me you didn't look at at least one of those and think, 'Yeah, thats ones total bollocks'. C'mon, I'll even throw in Bigfoot for you!

I've made several decisions about those.

As a (brainwashed) child I thought christian god is reality. When I started to think on my own, I didn't believe in it anymore. Then I believed there's no god (was atheist).
During that time I thought everything you listed was bullshit.

It's common that teen punks think they know everything.

Now I'm older (and wiser?) and I just have to accept the possibility that all/some of those you listed exists.

I think it's highly unlikely, but not impossible.

But you won't see me diving in the Loch Ness hoping to see Nessie. Instead I'll go to Red Sea and just look all the marvels that really are there (or at least my mind thinks they are).

[billvon 2,426]

>A monumental amount.

Given that there are hundreds of religions, and most contradict each other in some way, way more than half the religious efforts on the planet are guaranteed to be wasted - IF the only measure of a religion is how closely it hews to some sort of objective reality. Jews and Hindus can't both be right when it comes to the details of god.

But I think there's more to religion than objective reality. If it makes you feel good, if it makes you a better person, if you are comforted by your beliefs, if your religion helps you set up a moral framework you can live within - then it's a good thing, even if you believe god is a six-armed terror or that we all live on the back of a turtle. And someone else's belief that we live on the dismembered body of Gaia shouldn't detract from the things you believe that comfort you.

[mr2mk1g 10]

Like I said earlier in the thread... no matter what you believe, you're always in a minority. Take that on board and accept all the other minorities out there.

(edited to add that the comment is not directed at anyone at all)