I wonder how much we don’t see.

[Darius11 12]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/11/15/marine.probe/index.html


FALLUJA, Iraq (CNN) -- The U.S. military is investigating whether a Marine shot dead an unarmed, wounded insurgent during the battle for Falluja in an incident captured on videotape by a pool reporter.

The man was shot in the head at close range Saturday by a Marine who found him among a group of wounded men. The wounded men were found in a mosque that Marines said had been the source of small-arms and rocket-propelled grenade fire the previous day.

The Marine in the videotape has been removed from his unit and taken to the headquarters of the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force, and the Navy's Criminal Investigative Service said it plans to question one of the other wounded Iraqis as part of the probe, according to the pool reporter embedded with the unit.

"Let me make it perfectly clear: We follow the law of armed conflict and we hold ourselves to high standard of accountability," Marine Lt. Gen. John F. Sattler said Tuesday. "The facts of this case will be thoroughly pursued to make an informed decision and to protect rights of all persons involved."

The investigation will determine whether the Marine violated any rules or should be charged with any crime. Lt. Col. Bob Miller, a staff judge advocate for the 1st Marine Division, said wounded insurgents who pose no threat generally "would not be considered hostile."

The Marine seen shooting the man was part of a squad from the 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment, which had been part of intense house-to-house fighting in southern Falluja.

U.S. rules of engagement prohibit American troops from killing any prisoner who does not pose a threat, and commanders say they are worried the video might encourage more insurgents to fight to the death rather than surrender.

The military asked that networks obscure the names and recognizable faces of the Marines inside the mosque when they broadcast video of the incident. The request came from Marine judge advocate Col. John Weil to NBC News, which videotaped the killing, and was based on privacy concerns.

Friday, the Marines were fired upon by snipers and insurgents armed with rocket-propelled grenades from a mosque and an adjacent building. The Marines returned fire with tank shells and machine guns.

They eventually stormed the mosque, killing 10 insurgents and wounding five others, and showing off a cache of rifles and grenades for journalists.

The Marines told the pool reporter that the wounded men would be left behind for others to pick up and move to the rear for treatment. But Saturday, another squad of Marines found that the mosque had been reoccupied by insurgents and attacked it again, only to find the same wounded men inside.

Four of the men appeared to have been shot again in Saturday's fighting, and one of them appeared to be dead, according to the pool report. In the video, a Marine was seen noticing that one of the men appeared to be breathing.

A Marine approached one of the men in the mosque saying, "He's [expletive] faking he's dead. He's faking he's [expletive] dead."

The Marine raised his rifle and fired into the apparently wounded man's head, at which point a companion said, "Well, he's dead now."

When told by the pool reporter that the men were among those wounded in Friday's firefight, the Marine who fired the shot said, "I didn't know, sir. I didn't know."

The Marines said they are investigating why the wounded Iraqis were left behind for 24 hours and whether the man was killed illegally. Navy investigators said they believe they have located the fifth Iraqi -- the only one not wounded a second time -- who said he wanted to provide information about the killing.

Before the Marines entered the mosque Saturday, a lieutenant from one of two squads involved in the fighting was told that there were people inside.

"Did you shoot them?" he asked.

"Roger that, sir," one of the men replied.

"Were they armed?" the lieutenant asked. The other Marine shrugged.

The Marine who shot the Iraqi man had reportedly been returned to duty after suffering a minor facial wound Friday.

About a block away, a Marine was killed and five others wounded by a booby-trapped body they found in a house after a shootout with insurgents.

The human rights organization Amnesty International raised concerns about violations of the rules of war last week, after a British news program broadcast video of what it said was the killing of another wounded insurgent by U.S. troops.

Amnesty also noted reports that insurgents have used mosques as fighting positions, and in one incident appear to have used a white flag to lure Marines into an ambush.

"All violations of international humanitarian law and human rights law must be investigated and those responsible for unlawful attacks, including deliberate targeting of civilians, indiscriminate and disproportionate attacks, and the killing of injured persons must be brought to justice," the group said in a statement issued Thursday.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[wmw999 2,168]

Young, scared, men (and women) can do appalling things. It's up to the older ones to make sure they have training that helps them think before they do some of those appalling things.

And it's up to those same older ones to make sure that they're punished if they go ahead and do them anyway.

It's going to happen in war. The vast majority of the soldiers really want to do the right thing. But you put enough fear, gunfire, "macho" (note I didn't say testosterone -- women can do this too) into the mix and it's going to bring out the worst in some.

I'll bet that Marine regrets what he did now. Not just because he got caught, either. I could be wrong, but I'll bet he knows right from wrong.

What I'm sad about are the folks who think this kind of thing is OK, and are sorry he got caught. It's not.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[DrunkMonkey 0]

How many innocents had their heads sliced off with a dull knife like a deli ham, on video?? Payback is a motherfucker.

[Botellines 0]

Quote

In the video, a Marine was seen noticing that one of the men appeared to be breathing.

A Marine approached one of the men in the mosque saying, "He's [expletive] faking he's dead. He's faking he's [expletive] dead."

The Marine raised his rifle and fired into the apparently wounded man's head, at which point a companion said, "Well, he's dead now."

I think that pretty much shows that U.S marine cowardice and that he is guilty of murder.
Now the U.S military has a very good chance to get some distance from this incident by discharging that bastard from the army with dishonor and give him beetwen 20 years and lifetime of jail.
Somehow i have the feeling he will get just a slap in the hand as usual.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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How many innocents had their heads sliced off with a dull knife like a deli ham, on video?? Payback is a motherfucker.

Should we fly an airplane into a building in another country? Payback may seem like the right thing at the time, but it only lowers you to the level of your enemy.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[flyangel2 2]

Quote

How many innocents had their heads sliced off with a dull knife like a deli ham, on video?? Payback is a motherfucker.

So that makes it right?

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[DrunkMonkey 0]

Quote

Quote

In the video, a Marine was seen noticing that one of the men appeared to be breathing.

A Marine approached one of the men in the mosque saying, "He's [expletive] faking he's dead. He's faking he's [expletive] dead."

The Marine raised his rifle and fired into the apparently wounded man's head, at which point a companion said, "Well, he's dead now."

I think that pretty much shows that U.S marine cowardice and that he is guilty of murder.
Now the U.S military has a very good chance to get some distance from this incident by discharging that bastard from the army with dishonor and give him beetwen 20 years and lifetime of jail.
Somehow i have the feeling he will get just a slap in the hand as usual.

Botellines,

You seem to make a hobby of bashing everything that the US does as some sort of abomination, while everything that America's opponents do is apparently praiseworthy.

What are your thoughts on the Taliban, The PLO, & the Iraqi insurgents? All oppressed victims of the "Evil Empire." You hate everything about the US. We get it. We also do not care.

[Careful wording to avoid "personal attack" prohibition]: Postings like yours are seen by most Americans as the equivalent of pestering gadflies...annoying at worst, but largely irrelevant.[/careful wording]

Until you are in the military and have served your counrty in the defense of freedom, your opinion is largely irrelevant.

[Darius11 12]

Lets kill some innocent people for things others have done.
I think terrorist think like that. I was hopping we were better. Maybe you’re right and I am wrong.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[TheAnvil 0]

Let's see...the Marine in question had just been in combat...the Marine in question appears to have been shot at by the now-dead terrorist...Marines had experienced booby trapped bodies...the enemy has shown his willingness to die and his delight in killing Americans...hmmm...the Marine killed the wounded terrorist.

Wrong? Yes. Understandable? Absolutely.

See Boortz' comments from today: Clicky

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[wmw999 2,168]

Postings like these can make it hard to look at the people.

Some folks look at the participants as "Marines who are just like a lot of people I know" and "Iraqis who I've never met and are probably related to terrorists."

Others look at them as "Marines who are in another country and seem to be ill-regulated sometimes" and "People just like I grew up with."

Others look and see "evil Americans" and "anybody else," while others look and see "good Christians" and "evil Muslims" or whatever.

Take a look at each participant in something you hear about. The vast majority of them have parents who see them as their beloved child. And if you believe in God, each of them is God's beloved child.

That doesn't mean they can't do wrong. But each of them is worthy of being evaluated on their own merits, rather than being lumped with large or small groups automatically based on relative familiarity.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[juanesky 0]

It does not make it right. But insinuation of "slap on the hand", when actually military investigation-court martial is a very serious business is quite laughable.

The irony in the story is that no one points out the tactics used by these terrorist by hiding behind sacred places frequented by innocents, nor the way of life they are trying to defend. Why don't these reporters go to Iran and start filming-reporting every day life for women down on those countries where Islam is the law of the land.....

Botellines just google up what is being done with those abusers at abu ghraib......it has been more than what you claim it was IMO......

I guess it is ok that they can go into a elementary school and wipe out children and teachers, yep, that is so cool......

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[Rebecca 0]

Quote

That doesn't mean they can't do wrong. But each of them is worthy of being evaluated on their own merits, rather than being lumped with large or small groups automatically based on relative familiarity.
Wendy W.

As usual Wendy, in a tempest of loud opinions and generalizations, you are the calm cool voice of reason and wisdom.

I second your post because I can't say it better.

you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk?

[storm1977 0]

Here the thing....

From what I saw it doesn't look right, and I am confident he will get his day in military court, However:

Reports are in that many of these "insurgents" are commiting war crimes far greater than we may think.

They are,
Waving white flags and pulling out guns when the US approaches.
Using human shields.
Playing dead and waiting for troops to pass bye and then shooting them in the back.
Boobytrapping dead bodies with granades.
Hiding in Mosques.

The list goes on.

Because of this our Young Men and Women are on edge. Never knowing what trick the enemy is up to.
Because of that they have become jaded and over cautious, right or wrong.
Sure there was blood coming out of the guys mouth and he appeared to be critically wounded, but I don't know the whole story and neither do you. Was he faking? I doubt it, but when the soldiers walked in the room 5 mins before was he faking dead then? What did he do that caused the soldier to not trust him in a wounded condition.

Darius, you alway preach looking at both sides of an issue.... I think you need to look at both here.

Chris

-----------------------------------------------------
Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[jdhill 0]

Quote

What I'm sad about are the folks who think this kind of thing is OK, and are sorry he got caught. It's not.

You make the assumption that what he did was incorrect...

the facts of the case are not yet fully known, and the video is inconclusive.

The insurgent was NOT in custody, and did not appear to be surrendering... you cannot tell if there were any weapons within reach... the individual may have been playing opossum to evade capture or put the Marines in a vunerable position, which has been reported to be an tactic the insurgents are using... that would make his actions in fact hostile and thereby a clean shoot...

or maybe not... since the Marines were not moving through the room in a tactical manner, and the Marine in question seems to just stroll up and pop the guy from close range, there may have been other motives...

We just don't know yet, and to lable him a murderer, as some in this thread have, is premature.

J

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke

[pajarito 0]

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(note I didn't say testosterone -- women can do this too)

Women's ovaries also produce some testosterone. It can affect things such as mood, energy, and sexual desire. clicky

[tkhayes 146]

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How many innocents had their heads sliced off with a dull knife like a deli ham, on video?? Payback is a motherfucker.

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So that makes it right?

sure - it's in the Bible, Christian Fundamentalism at it's finest - eye for an eye, etc......

"kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out"

Sadly, another side of war that we have to face, then try to justify to the rest of the world, and I bet more terrorists probably just signed up all over the world against us.

Bravo.

TK

[DrunkMonkey 0]

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How many innocents had their heads sliced off with a dull knife like a deli ham, on video?? Payback is a motherfucker.

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So that makes it right?

sure - it's in the Bible, Christian Fundamentalism at it's finest - eye for an eye, etc......

"kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out"

Sadly, another side of war that we have to face, then try to justify to the rest of the world, and I bet more terrorists probably just signed up all over the world against us.

Bravo.

TK

See also: Terrorist videos of them slicing non-combatant (the alleged victim here WAS a combatant) peoples' heads off...

No pity.

[Frenchy68 0]

Quote

Here the thing....

From what I saw it doesn't look right, and I am confident he will get his day in military court, However:

Reports are in that many of these "insurgents" are commiting war crimes far greater than we may think.

I agree with both statements. If he did wrong, he will face his action. A battle is a terribly hard to handle event, and people do things they regret.
Looking at it as "paybakc is a motherfucker" only justifies the next beheading. Two wrongs do not make a right. Deal with both harshly but fairly.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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sure - it's in the Bible, Christian Fundamentalism at it's finest - eye for an eye, etc......

Sorry TK - but the New Testament speaks against an eye for an eye and preaches forgiveness.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[markd_nscr986 0]

Heat of battle....fog of war.......a marine in this same unit was killed by a booby trapped dead body the day before....... He probably didnt want to take any chances,cant say that I blame him....it would be real easy to fake being wounded and having a hand grenade or a satchel charge underneath a robe,just itching for a chance to kill infidels and become a martyr for Allah.Given the mindset of the insurgents,I can see where prisoner taking could be real hazardous for the Marines.For those of you who would like to second guess these guys,put yourself in their boots for a change........

Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

Quote

Here the thing....

From what I saw it doesn't look right, and I am confident he will get his day in military court,

With AI backing up the claim of illegal tactics being used by the insurgents, this soldier may be able to defend his actions in court.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[Gawain 0]

The only thing that I will find wrong with this incident is that the majority of the world will sit back in their lounge chair, in their living room and judge, with no facts presented.

It's being investigated. If the Marine Corps determines there was an illegal killing, then those responsible should face justice. If they determine that there were factors present that allowed this killing under the ROE in place at the time, then I hope people will exercise the same scrutiny they are prepared to do as if he is guilty.

We don't see a lot I'm sure. Thank God. Whenever I get sent over there I'm sure my eyes will witness things never to be seen again.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[storm1977 0]

I agree, he will probably walk free, not that what he did was right, but this is a result of the actions taken by the insurgents. The tactics they have used to kill our troops makes this soldiers actions at the very least understandable, but not nesesarily correct.

It must be a hard situation to be in....
Not fo nothing, but I would kicked that camera man in the face!!!!!!
I know, he is just doing his job, but this soldier is facing death to protect his right to do his job.

-----------------------------------------------------
Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

Quote

I agree, he will probably walk free, not that what he did was right, but this is a result of the actions taken by the insurgents. The tactics they have used to kill our troops makes this soldiers actions at the very least understandable, but not nesesarily correct.

Look at that - you and I can agree on something!!

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[pajarito 0]

Quote

sure - it's in the Bible, Christian Fundamentalism at it's finest - eye for an eye, etc......

"kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out"

Christianity has its root in the New Testament which teaches love, tollerance, and forgiveness. Eye for an eye, etc, is Old Testament. Judaism and Islam both share parts of Old Testament teachings. Maybe your insult should be directed at them.