Cop uses stun gun on 75 year old woman

[tunaplanet 0]

Wow

Forty-two

[Kennedy 0]

From Rock Hill, SC
full text

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Police stun 75-year-old
Rock Hill chief says Taser was used after woman attacked officer
By Matt Garfield
The Herald

The Rock Hill Police Department is investigating why an officer used an electric stun gun on a 75-year-old woman who refused to leave a nursing home where she had gone to visit an ailing friend.
The woman, Margaret Kimbrell, said she suffered bruises on her leg and face after she was knocked to the floor by the force of the weapon, called a Taser.

Police Chief John Gregory said Tuesday the department is reviewing whether Officer Hattie Macon's use of the Taser was appropriate -- a step that is taken in unusual or high-profile cases.

"On face value, it looks like it was," he said. "We have a person who was asked to leave, who refused and who attempted to assault the officer."

Gregory did not say when the review would be completed. Kimbrell said Tuesday she's considering legal action against the department.

Kimbrell went to EdenGardens of Rock Hill, a retirement home on Constitution Boulevard, Friday evening to visit a friend who was scheduled to have colon surgery this week, she said.

Soon after she arrived, a staff member called police to have her removed for trespassing. A relative of the friend told an EdenGardens administrator she did not want Kimbrell there, said Larry Boesen, the home's executive director.

Police and Kimbrell offer two different versions of what happened after police arrived.

According to the police report, Kimbrell was sitting in a chair in a waiting area when Macon, 35, ordered her to leave several times. Kimbrell refused, jerking her arms away when Macon tried to lead her toward the door.

Police say Kimbrell eventually got up but walked toward the cafeteria after spotting someone she knew. At that point, the officer blocked Kimbrell and told her she was under arrest. Kimbrell then swung her arm at the officer, according to the police report.

That's when Macon used the Taser and placed Kimbrell under arrest.

Kimbrell on Tuesday disagreed with that version of events.

She said she did not swing her arm or threaten Macon.

"As weak as I am, how could I do that?" said Kimbrell, who has arthritis and suffered six broken ribs in a recent fall in her back yard. "Maybe I was trespassing, but I didn't know it. I thought they would understand."

She said she got upset because no one would tell her where her friend was -- or even if he was alive.

"I thought he had died," she said. "I was trying to keep from crying."

Kimbrell said Macon pressed the Taser to her back and used it during the exchange, causing Kimbrell to hit the floor.

"It was the worst pain," said Kimbrell. "It felt like something going through my body. I thought I was dying. I said, 'Lord, let it be over.'"

Kimbrell said she asked the officer and others at the scene to dial 911 because she was hurt. According to the police report, no one was injured in the incident.

Macon could not be reached for comment.

Kimbrell, of 1211 Meadow Lakes Road, was taken to the police department and later issued a citation for resisting police and trespassing. She spent three hours in a police holding area until her daughter, Donna, picked her up around 10 p.m., she said.

Kimbrell said she later learned her ailing friend was out taking a walk during the incident.

Review has been launched

According to the department's policy manual, cases when officers can use Tasers include when a suspect is threatening to punch or kick, or when officers "reasonably believe a suspect poses a credible threat."

"I have to believe at that moment, that's what the officer had to believe," Gregory said. "We have to look at what was reasonable under the circumstances. The determination about somebody being right or wrong has not been made."

Macon, who joined the department almost 18 months ago, remains on duty, said Gregory. The department has received no previous complaints about her performance.

"I can't overemphasize how concerned I am," said Gregory. "This case is getting a lot of attention, and I understand that ... If we find excessive force was used, we will take the appropriate disciplinary action."

The department is aware that Kimbrell and her family are planning to file a formal complaint, Gregory said.

Tasers prove effective

Nearly all of Rock Hill's 110 police officers have carried Tasers since last year, Gregory said. They've been used 57 times this year with no injuries reported, he said.

Before they are issued the device, officers must complete a four-hour training course that includes having a Taser used on them. They also must take a refresher course once a year.

Macon took the refresher course last month, said Capt. Charles Cabannis.

The devices have proven safer and more effective than batons and pepper spray, Gregory said.

"We have noticed a substatial reduction in injuries to suspects and officers since we've used them," he said. "It's kept us from having to fight people. We haven't had to beat anybody with clubs."

Gregory said an official from the S.C. Criminal Justice Academy had called Tuesday morning to ask if the department could lead a Taser training exercise for other state agencies -- a sign that the department's policies are well-respected.

"They're using us as an example," Gregory said. "We have a strict policy."

Matt Garfield • 329-4063

[email protected]

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[Kennedy 0]

The woman was tresspassing and refused to leave.
She was told to leave by a police officer.
When she finally got up to walk out, she decided instead to walk somewhere else inside the building.
She swung at a police officer.

While I'm fairly sure I could have restrained her by hand and then dragged her out bodily, that may have resulted in more injuries than the fall caused. After she took a swing at an officer, the taser may have been the fastest and safest way to end the encounter.

By the way, I saw a seventy something attack a young woman. THe girl needed stiches and plastic surgery for her face. Don't think senior citizens can't be a real threat to anyone.

ps - I doubt it's all a lie and that the officer is just some bitch on a power trip. I really doubt any officer would use a taser on anyone without some sort of physical threat provoking it.

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[tunaplanet 0]

I hear you but I would bet my life that he could have ended the incident without zapping her. Just because you have the ability and right to use certain force doesn't mean you should.

Forty-two

[Kennedy 0]

Well, there's the difference. I'm a 6'1" 215 lb. male.

The responding officer was a woman.

Macon, who joined the department almost 18 months ago, remains on duty, said Gregory. The department has received no previous complaints about her performance.

As much as I think it's not fair, female use of force is considered to have less stringent requirements than male use of force (due to size, strength, etc.)

If some gray haired banshee came at me and I zapped her, I'd expect to be questioned about it. But how big is this Hattie Macon? The woman was within arms reach and struggling.

All use of force is somewhat questionable if you weren't there to witness it, but in this case I have no reason to doubt the officer was correct.

edit: How much more would the woman have been hurt if Macon tried putting her in cuffs while she was still struggling? Borken wrist? Fractured arm? Busted hip from going to the ground together instead of on her own?

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[PhillyKev 0]

That's the problem I have with these "less than lethal" weapons. They can and have killed people. They shouldn't be used except in response to deadly force.

That being said, I don't think there as effective as a gun in that situation.

And that being said, I don't think these alternative weapons should be utilized at all until they can either A) make them 100% not lethal, or B) Make them as effective in protecting the officers as a gun.

This old woman could have had a heart attack for cyrin' out loud.

[peregrinerose 0]

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This old woman could have had a heart attack for cyrin' out loud

I've seen some really nasty old ladies. They are absolutely capable of being aggressive regardless of physical capability. She could have had a heart attack from the agitation as well. If anyone is dumb enough to physically threaten a cop, they deserve to be restrained in whatever way causes the least damage to the person and the officer. In this case, if she has broken ribs and arthritis, the tazer is far more forgiving than wrestling her to the ground.

The old lady was pissed that the nursing home would not give any information on her friend. Legally, they are not authorized to do so under HIPPA.

Jen

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[Kennedy 0]

I agree, but have to ask a few questions/make a few points.

Like I asked before, was the woman hurt less by the taser than she could have been if the officer had to manhandle her through the exit?

Do you agree that every struggle with an officer borders very closely to a lethal force encouter?
(cops have to fear gun grabs and being tasered themselves, etc)

Do you think taser use is better than baton use for contact struggles?
(this was a contact taser, not a wire taser, from what I can tell)

Would you justify a 5"3" 100 lb. woman using a taser at lower standards than someone like me?
(or lower standards for any level of self defense, including lethal)



[personal note]
I believe smaller officers should be denied employment, rather than accepting lower standards for them to use force. If a large male could handle the situation with a baton, but a small female used a gun, why hire the small female and face more commn use of force?
[/note]

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[PhillyKev 0]

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Do you agree that every struggle with an officer borders very closely to a lethal force encouter?
(cops have to fear gun grabs and being tasered themselves, etc)

No, that's a blanket statement and I don't like blanket statements. A 75 year old woman swatting at you does not fit that that criteria.

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Do you think taser use is better than baton use for contact struggles?
(this was a contact taser, not a wire taser, from what I can tell)

That depends on a lot, but in general, no, not if the baton is used properly. Getting hit in the legs with a baton has much less chance of accidentally killiing than tasing the elderly.

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Would you justify a 5"3" 100 lb. woman using a taser at lower standards than someone like me?
(or lower standards for any level of self defense, including lethal)

The only standard should be the necessity of deadly force because of fear of serious bodily injury or death. But, that has to be a realistic assessment, as well. if she felt in threat of serious injury from a 75 year old woman swatting at her, she shouldn't be on the job. This cop had a lot of other options, including calling for backup.

Note - I'm making assumptions based on the article. If the old woman actually clocked her in the face, or is a body builder, or went for her gun, or almost knocked her over, that's a different story. But that's not how the article portrayed it and that's how I'm basing my comments.

EDIT to ask you a question.

Would the officer have been justified in shooting the old woman?

If not, why was using a taser appropriate?

[Kennedy 0]

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Do you agree that every struggle with an officer borders very closely to a lethal force encouter?
(cops have to fear gun grabs and being tasered themselves, etc)

No, that's a blanket statement and I don't like blanket statements. A 75 year old woman swatting at you does not fit that that criteria.

Even though the officer doesn't know how psycho the woman is, and even though people have been hospitalized for attacks by "golden girls," and even though the officer's gun is within arms reach of the woman? That's not one decision away from lethal force encounter?

That's the point I was making: for an officer, every physical struggle is one step away from a lethal force encounter, and the officer is not the one who decides whether or not to take the step. All the officer can do is try to prevent it from going to that level.

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Do you think taser use is better than baton use for contact struggles?
(this was a contact taser, not a wire taser, from what I can tell)

That depends on a lot, but in general, no, not if the baton is used properly. Getting hit in the legs with a baton has much less chance of accidentally killiing than tasing the elderly.

Um, this lady broke ribs falling in her back yard, Kev. A baton strike to the legs of an elderly person would probably snap a femur. Like I said, how much would it have hurt the woman to be borne to the ground by an officer. Probably more than a fall.

Also, to the best of my knowledge, no one has ever died from two or less shocks by a taser. It has always been multiple shocks that led to eventual injury/death.

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Note - I'm making assumptions based on the article. If the old woman actually clocked her in the face, or is a body builder, or went for her gun, or almost knocked her over, that's a different story. But that's not how the article portrayed it and that's how I'm basing my comments.

EDIT to ask you a question.

Would the officer have been justified in shooting the old woman?

If not, why was using a taser appropriate?

The taser is supposed to be used in situations where lethal force is not required. It's like a joint lock or a baton strike. It's pain compliance.

What I picture is this uppity stubborn old woman, who wouldn't listen to anyone. She got it in her head that she didn't want to leve, and it took time and force to make her get up for the door. She then got it in her head that she wanted into the cafeteria, and the officer was having none of it. The officer stood between the woman and the cafe, and the woman swung at her.

Obviously, this wouldn't justify shooting her, but de-escalation has gone out the window. At this point I can see the woman continuing to press against the officer and trying to get by.

For an offcier, distance is your friend. This woman was threatening by struggling with the officer. The officer chose the taser over the baton. I think it was a good choice.

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[PhillyKev 0]

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The taser is supposed to be used in situations where lethal force is not required. It's like a joint lock or a baton strike. It's pain compliance.

That's where I don't agree. What if this woman had a pacemaker? What effect does a taser have on that? I think it's more of a risk of death than the other options. Sure, she might be more likely to get a broken leg from the baton, but that's not going to kill her.

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For an offcier, distance is your friend. This woman was threatening by struggling with the officer. The officer chose the taser over the baton. I think it was a good choice.

What about following her from a safe distance and calling for backup?

[Kennedy 0]

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The taser is supposed to be used in situations where lethal force is not required. It's like a joint lock or a baton strike. It's pain compliance.

That's where I don't agree. What if this woman had a pacemaker? What effect does a taser have on that? I think it's more of a risk of death than the other options. Sure, she might be more likely to get a broken leg from the baton, but that's not going to kill her.

All I know is that I've never read or heard of any instatnce where a single use of the taser has caused serious harm to a person.

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For an offcier, distance is your friend. This woman was threatening by struggling with the officer. The officer chose the taser over the baton. I think it was a good choice.

What about following her from a safe distance and calling for backup?

Kev, the officer was called to the scene to remove a tresspasser. It's her job to get the person out of the building and off the property. Following is out. Back up is also unnecessary. The two viable options for the officer were continuing to struggle empty handed, pulling out the baton, using chemical spray, or using the taser (I'm assuming they are issued chem spray, that may not be the case).

Of those four options, which is better? If it were me, I would've done it empty handed. But it wasn't me- it was the female officer, Macon.

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[Casurf1978 0]

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What I picture is this uppity stubborn old woman, who wouldn't listen to anyone. She got it in her head that she didn't want to leve, and it took time and force to make her get up for the door. She then got it in her head that she wanted into the cafeteria, and the officer was having none of it. The officer stood between the woman and the cafe, and the woman swung at her.

She swung at a police officer WTF? She knew what she was doing, she was warned several times to leave and refused, finally she swung at a cop. What's the cop supposed to do, stand there and just keep backing off? She deserved what she got. Maybe next time she will listen to a police officer.

[billvon 2,412]

>This old woman could have had a heart attack for cyrin' out loud.

So can fat people; but a policy of allowing fat people more leeway to assault cops (to avoid causing them a heart attack) isn't a good idea (IMO.)

[PhillyKev 0]

who said she should be allowed to assault the cop? I just don't like the idea of using potentially lethal weapons to subdue people when lethal force is not necessary.

[SkyDekker 1,130]

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Back up is also unnecessary.

Why? That is exactly what she would have asked for before Tasers. since it is pain compliance, with a bigger chance of killing, how would it have looked if she had taken out a baton and started beating her?

Why did she not chose that option? Certainly less chance of killing her.

Funny enough, broken bones these days are harder to explain than an old lady dying. That one we would just chalk up to a sad side effect of the Taser....

Pretty sad fucking state of affairs when your police officers cannot deal with a 75 year old lady without using a bloody taser.....

Have you ever been hit with one?

[tigra 0]

Is it just me, or have there been a LOT of similar stories in the news lately of police officers seeming to use a lot of force against unlikely people for very minor offenses? Pregnant women, senior citizens, etc? Wasn't a pregnant woman recently detained and forced to lay on her stomach for talking to loudly on her cell phone while riding a bus? And police used a tazer on another pregnant woman at her wedding reception? Don't know if its a trend or just that thanks to the internet, it gets more widely reported. I have a hard time believing that using a tazer on this little old lady was the best option. Of course, I wasn't there so who knows?

[PhillyKev 0]

I do hear it a lot, but as has been pointed out in another recent thread, they don't report good news, so the bad news seems more prevalent. But, it seems to me there is a general attitude that there are now 3 types of circumstances for police:

-Deadly force
-Less lethal force
-Physical restraint or subdual


The problem with that is the line is blurry between less lethal force and the other two. While the line between Lethal and physical restraint has been well established and understood for quite some time.

[SkyDekker 1,130]

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The problem with that is the line is blurry between less lethal force and the other two. While the line between Lethal and physical restraint has been well established and understood for quite some time.

It would seem to me that good Tac Com and a second officer would have been a better option than a tazer.

[PhillyKev 0]

I agree, I think blurry lines have no place in these situations. Blurry lines mean suspects and cops are both at greater risk.

Like I said, come up with a weapon that is truly NON lethal, and stick to the most effective weapon (a gun) when having to use lethal force.

[Kennedy 0]

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I just don't like the idea of using potentially lethal weapons to subdue people when lethal force is not necessary.

What weapon is not potentially lethal?

A baton can kill you, particularly when you're 75.
Being wrestled can kill you, particularly when you're 75.

A taser has never killed a person after only one or two shocks.
(that I know of, please tell me if this is no longer true)

Everything on an officer's belt is potentially lethal. Even chemical spray. It's a matter of choosing wrich option is safest for everyone involved.

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[Kennedy 0]

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That is exactly what she would have asked for before Tasers. since it is pain compliance, with a bigger chance of killing, how would it have looked if she had taken out a baton and started beating her?

Why did she not chose that option? Certainly less chance of killing her.

Funny enough, broken bones these days are harder to explain than an old lady dying. That one we would just chalk up to a sad side effect of the Taser....

You don't deal with many elderly people, do you? They can fight like the devil, but they are still frail. Who are you to say that a baton would be less likely to kill the woman. Being struck even once would probably break whatever bone was hit. Being shocked just put her to the ground. It also did it without requiring the officer to go down with her.

What makes you think the baton is less likely to kill a 75 year old than a taser?

Batons are generally used to subdue someone to/on the ground. It is not a good choice for getting a person to move.

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Have you ever been hit with one?

Yes I have been hit with a taser as demonstration, and it hurt like hell. What does that have to do with the discussion at hand?

---

I mean really folks, if this cop had used a baton to beat this woman to the ground, how many of you would be out here crying about excessive force, as making wisecracks about how it's "pretty friggin sad that cops can't move an old lady without beating on her with batons?"

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[Kennedy 0]

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The problem with that is the line is blurry between less lethal force and the other two. While the line between Lethal and physical restraint has been well established and understood for quite some time.

It would seem to me that good Tac Com and a second officer would have been a better option than a tazer.

You want to call additional officers to every trespassing event?

You really have no concept of the limited resources and strained timeframe under which police officers operate, do you?

Cops can't spend all day and multiple officers at every complaint call they receive. Do you want to fund a police department four to five times the size that you have now?

The taser took care of the problem, the officer removed the trespasser, and everyone got to go home.

Who's really surprised that another perp complained after they made the cops use force on them?

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[PhillyKev 0]

You're contradicting yourself. First you talk about how serious and dangerous the situation was that merits tasing the woman, then you say that calling additional officers is overkill.

Either it's dangerous or not. If it is, there are other methods of dealing with that danger than using a taser on a 75 year old woman.

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Who's really surprised that another perp complained after they made the cops use force on them?

No, not suprised at all. And I did give a disclaimer that I'm basing my statements on what the article portrayed. I'll clarify further. If the 75 year old woman clocked the cop in the head, or almost knocked her over, or was continuint to assault her, or was going for her gun, or was turning on bystanders, then I have no problem with it. But the idea that it was necessary because she swatted at the cop and continued moving away from the cop is not justification IMO. Yes, the cop needs to effect the arrest, but this story sounds more like the cop was showing her who was in charge rather than it was necessary to protect herself or anyone else.

How do you feel about high speed chases? Many places don't allow them under most circumstances because catching someone fleeing isn't worth the risk. I'm just saying that a 75 year old woman swatting at you and trying to go to the library or dining room or wherever she was headed was not justification to use less lethal force.

[LouDiamond 1]

Great discussion but I think a few things on both side have not been mentioned, maybe from not knowing or just from not having on scene specifics.

First off, I have been hit with the X26 taser and think it's a fantastic device for those situations where shooting or ASPing/clubbing a person isn't really warrented but you still need instant compliance with minimal injury to the officer or the assaliant.

Second, during the demonstration of the X26 to me, one of the men the unit was demonstrated on had a pacemaker and made it a point to be the one hit with it to show it's safety even with a pacemaker(he really believes in the product). Yes there have been instances where people have died after they were tasered but all of them to my knowledge involved extremely violent people who were under the influence of insane amounts of illegal drugs. This device does not shock you like a power wire or the outlet in your house will, it is an entirely different feeling. For lack of a better description,it feels more like a million fire ants running underneath your skin and every muscle in your body becomes rigid and stops responding to your command. The only movement is your falling to the ground no matter how big or buff you are.


Third, going to the ground or any type of physical contact with anyone,no matter what their size or gender is not a good idea , it is the last thing you want to do. Having worked with mental people, I can tell you they can be scary superhuman strong even if they appear to be old,weak, or small in stature. Of all the options available to the officer the taser was the best choice IMO since the effects of it are gone with in seconds and the person is back to normal but it does make you extremely compliant once you know what it feels like. Had she OC sprayed the woman the effects would of been far longer and possibly required a hospital vist to fully remove the OC.


Fourth. It never said how big this 70 yr old woman is. For all we know she could of been tipping the scales at 300lbs or at least bigger than the officer that she knew controling her would of been a task and lead to a ground type of event.

Fifth: She attacked an officer. It's cut and dry here IMO


Sixth: there is no blurry line between deadly force and less than leathal, ask any cop on the street and they will have a clear answer and understanding,most civilians however don't. Police forces have policies to avoid that confusion and possible litigation.


I bet if they followed this incident through you would find that even if it went to court the officer would be found not guilty and within police policy and procedure.

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