mardigrasbob 0 #51 June 7, 2004 QuoteAHHAAH I dont agree though. I enjoyed your well thought out post. I grew up in the midwest, lived in the South and also New Orleans, am currently residing in S.Cal. I have traveled all over Europe. I don't think most people hate America; I think most Americans believe they do though. There are arrogant rich vacationers everywhere, America just has more per capita than most countries. I cringe everytime I see some over-fed, over jeweled, old couple treat some poor sap like a slave. "Take their money and smile" is my attitute. In the same vein; We Americans are taught since birth that we are special. Instead of being graceful many are just arrogant. The policies of our government and the abuses by american companies make matters worse. All groups, wheather countries, races, even different skydive disaplines are suspicious, envious, and confused by outsiders. Hell I think freeflyers are all spike head freaks but I love what they have done for/to the sport. The W.Va.--Cali. metaphor can work the other way too; Europe looks at America as a bunch of upstart ignorant hillbillies. Nothing in America, including our culture is more than 300 years old. Europe has thousands or years of history. All in all; I believe in the myth that is America. and I alot of the outside world does too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #52 June 7, 2004 QuoteThe W.Va.--Cali. metaphor can work the other way too; Europe looks at America as a bunch of upstart ignorant hillbillies. Nothing in America, including our culture is more than 300 years old. Europe has thousands or years of history. The “W.Va.—Cali. Metaphor” is a bad stereotype. Not everyone from W.Va. is an ignorant hillbilly as you put it. I mean, I don’t believe everyone from California is a stoned out dumbass surfer. I’m originally from Alabama. You probably think my Dad was in the K.K.K. or something and that my family owns a cotton plantation. Come on man…this is 2004. Also, our culture is made up of everyone else’s culture around the globe. Theirs may be hundreds or thousands of years old but ours has direct linkage. I also believe that we’ve been around long enough to not be considered “upstart.” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mardigrasbob 0 #53 June 7, 2004 QuoteI’m originally from Alabama. You probably think my Dad was in the K.K.K. I thought I was clear, but maybe not. I lived in Mississippi and Louisanna. My mother's family is from the Ozarks. I have ancestors that were biggoted rednecks; but thats not me. I saw the busing start, was in the school riots and was badly beaten by a large group of black kids in 7th grade. Did that make me a hater? No!! I love the diversity that is America and understand some of the conflicts. However for you to grab, out of context, one statement only enforces what I said eariler. Hmm I am resisting the urge to return the insult, but I will say that either you did not understand my post or you just look for any opportunity to start shit. -Bob- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #54 June 7, 2004 Sorry. I didn’t mean it as an insult and certainly didn’t want to take stuff out of context or start shit. It just sounded like you were pandering to the Europeans who all too often appear to be looking down their noses at us and resting on their high pedestals. It appeared confusing as to which side you were really on. I’m obviously mistaken so I stand corrected. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mardigrasbob 0 #55 June 7, 2004 Cool, but you were right about one thing. Not all people in California are 'stoned out surfers', but give me time, I'm working on it! Blue skies, Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #56 June 7, 2004 QuoteCool, but you were right about one thing. Not all people in California are 'stoned out surfers', but give me time, I'm working on it! Blue skies, Bob I'd love to learn to surf! The waves over here suck, though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Scratch 0 #57 June 7, 2004 Sheesh I don't hate Americans in the least. I'm an animal lover after all and think everybody should own at least two. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Newbie 0 #58 June 7, 2004 QuoteQuoteThis is a question for all Americans out there. Im curious whether you realise how much the world hates you and what you consider the reasons to be. NB I dont hate America or its citizens per se, although I consider it has rather unusual foreign policies. Judging by some of the Ugly Americans I encounter around the world, it is hardly surprising. Add to that the sheer inelegance with which we traditionally wield both power and "aid" and you have a pretty repellent mix. When people ask me if we have lost our fucking minds by virtue of one particularly enlightened policy or another, I can only answer "I suspect so." We are a nation with a short attention span, and we do not tend to do our homework. Our leaders are but a reflection of who and what we really are. When we are finally and fully hoist with our own petard I will refrain from a good "I told you so," since I will be as badly screwed as my fellow countrymen. Thus you should all enjoy yourseves, since it is much, much later than you think. Blue skies (with dark clouds on the horizon), Winsor great post "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nacmacfeegle 0 #59 June 7, 2004 There was a nice programme on the American Empire this weekend. The piece was by Niall Ferguson, author of "Colossus: The Price of America's Empire." from a somewhat partisan review... http://enjoyment.independent.co.uk/books/reviews/story.jsp?story=520951 "Ferguson's attack on this preposterous American self-image is more from the right than the left. A central argument is that it is better to be honest about US interests overseas than to pretend they don't exist or aren't important. Further, the world needs an empire - and the American is the only one on offer. The trouble is, he concedes, that it is a most peculiar empire. Its main weapons are the dollar, the bomb, entertainment and rhetoric, but not a lot else. It will do anything to avoid calling itself an empire; its citizens don't bother much about foreign languages and cultures, and it is not in the business of long-term administration of distant territories." The book looks like interesting reading and ostensibly argues that America is just about the best placed of all historic empires to actually make a go of it. Whether or not this is a globally popular role for America to adopt is probably at the root of this entire thread.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rickjump1 0 #60 June 7, 2004 Your post had a very calming effect on me. Thank you. I think I get a little wound up sometimes; maybe a little too defensive. You are right about the grease.Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nigel99 151 #61 June 7, 2004 I would say being in Europe it is not jealousy. I also don't think that "most" westerners hate the US. I would say you are generally perceived as ignorant of world affairs & arrogant. (not sure if you've seen the maps circulated around showing american geography - large grey areas with details showing "we bombed here"...) I don't know what's up with the Arab world and their view of the US though... Africa - they tend to see the US as trying to "colonise" them at least that is what I have heard... and no they are not jealous they just want to be left alone to run their dictatorships in peace Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Tonto 1 #62 June 7, 2004 tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Red_Skydiver 0 #63 June 7, 2004 Quote As far as Europe goes, I think jealousy has a lot to do with it and, personally, I could give a rat's ass what they think. Jealous? What of exactly? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #64 June 7, 2004 Quote Quote As far as Europe goes, I think jealousy has a lot to do with it and, personally, I could give a rat's ass what they think. Jealous? What of exactly? Off the top of my head... - The extent of freedom that we enjoy. - Our dominating success in the world economy. - The relatively short period of time that it took us to achieve that success. - Our overwhelming military strength as the one and only superpower. - The controlling influence we have over world affairs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mr2mk1g 10 #65 June 7, 2004 You flatter yourself and your country. In the western world there is no jealousy of the US nor of its residents. None. That's not to say it's not a cool place - I love to visit, but there is no jealousy. Also, there is no significant difference in the amount of freedom enjoyed by American's when compared to the rest of the west. Certainly none perceived - if they’re not perceived they’re not missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #66 June 7, 2004 Also, there is no significant difference in the amount of freedom enjoyed by American's when compared to the rest of the west. Certainly none perceived - if they’re not perceived they’re not missed. Yeah...I guess it's all relative. If you don't know you're getting f%$#ed, I guess it doesn't matter. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mr2mk1g 10 #67 June 7, 2004 Well I made that comment like that mainly because the only "freedom" I could think of that is available in America but not in some other western countries is the "freedom" to bear arms. Now, the problem with holding that against other westerners and saying 'look at my country, isnt it great, we can bear arms' is that most other countries will say 'thats nice, we don't want to bear arms, have fun over there'. They don't percieve that freedom as being an advantage so they don't miss it. Perhaps a better analogy would therefore be - if you're gay, why would you complain about being "fucked in the ass". Something one person would complain about, you quite like. Damnit, now I just compaired the rest of the western world to a puff. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JackC 0 #68 June 7, 2004 QuoteQuote Quote As far as Europe goes, I think jealousy has a lot to do with it and, personally, I could give a rat's ass what they think. Jealous? What of exactly? Off the top of my head... - The extent of freedom that we enjoy. - Our dominating success in the world economy. - The relatively short period of time that it took us to achieve that success. - Our overwhelming military strength as the one and only superpower. - The controlling influence we have over world affairs. Jealousy? Nah. Personally, I wouldn't want to be an American, I don't much fancy the sense-of-humour bypass or the ego augmentation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nigel99 151 #69 June 7, 2004 Can you name freedom's that you have that we do not enjoy across France/Germany/UK? In fact if liberal attitudes towards nudity carry any weight with regards to freedom then I would say Europe has more freedom than you Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Kerr 0 #70 June 7, 2004 Havn't there been a few cases reasently where US citizens have been detained indefinitely without trial or even charged with anything? I'd consider that a pretty large breach of freedom. Certainly many would consider parts of the Patroit Act to stand in stark contrast to the principles of freedom. It can be argued that the Patroit Act and detaining people indefinitely without trial is in the interests of national security, however it must also be accepted that these measures reduce the freedom you so clearly hold dear. In the current climate, crowing about freedom while it is being taken away from you, makes you look blind to the reality fo the situation. -- Kerr Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Red_Skydiver 0 #71 June 7, 2004 No. You're wrong. In fact it is usually the arrogant attitude that many Americans have (not all of them) that people don't like (e.g. thinking you have the best country in the world). Yes, you have the military and financial power but so what!!?? That does not make me jealous, there is more to life than money and killing people. There are good things and bad things that come from America just like any country in the world (including my own). I don't hate America but I don't particulary like it either, it's the ignorant people that insist it is the best country that I don't like. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #72 June 7, 2004 QuoteIm curious whether you realise how much the world hates you and what you consider the reasons to be. What makes you say that? Some hidden resentment? In my global travles I've not encountered that. In fact many places welcome Americans, probably due to the large amounts of money they tend to bring along with them. It's the French that are generaly dissliked through out the world anyway...---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,463 #73 June 7, 2004 >In fact many places welcome Americans, probably due to the large > amounts of money they tend to bring along with them. And there are many places that don't judge people by how rich they are. As has been mentioned before, such places often judge you on your character rather than your wallet. One of the coolest experiences I've had was spending a month in sub-sahara africa, living in a village of 300 with a peace corps volunteer. In the larger cities they disliked whites, because the whites they saw were all rich, and when rich people enter an economy like that it crowds poor people out very quickly. (If you make $60,000 a year, do you care if sugar is 8 cents a kilo or 20? How about if you make $100 a year?) It led to a city where whites drove fancy cars past native people dying in the streets. But in the country that was reversed. I was the first white man they had ever seen. (Also the largest, and the first person they had ever seen with hair on their arms.) Their experience with white people was limited to two Peace Corps volunteers and me, and as far as they could tell, all white people wanted to do was help them dig wells, plant different kinds of crops, and get their kids to take vitamins. Often they didn't want to do any of those things, but they thought it was sure nice of us to offer to help. People all over the world are pretty good judges of character, I think. If the americans they see are Peace Corps people, they are going to have a high opinion of them. If they are Donald Trump clones, they are going to decide they have no use for them. BTW I realized while I was over there that the Peace Corps does a tremendous amount of good, but I think most of the good is that americans leave there with a real sense of what the rest of the world is like - and I think that sense is often sorely missing in modern america. The people in the Peace Corps often go on to become politicians and leaders, and those are the people who most need a realistic view of how the rest of the world works. I got a lot out of it even in the short time I was there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,667 #74 June 7, 2004 QuoteQuote Quote As far as Europe goes, I think jealousy has a lot to do with it and, personally, I could give a rat's ass what they think. Jealous? What of exactly? Off the top of my head... - The extent of freedom that we enjoy. - Our dominating success in the world economy. - The relatively short period of time that it took us to achieve that success. - Our overwhelming military strength as the one and only superpower. - The controlling influence we have over world affairs. Which particular western European nations are you thinking of, and which particular freedoms are they missing?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,166 #75 June 7, 2004 Not replying to anyone in particular. But you know "those rich assholes" (most towns have some) who live in unbelievable leisure, and who think that their voice should count for more in town because they're bigwigs, rich, and have a lot of money? Their kids have bigger, newer cars than anyone, and they think that makes them cool. People often say "money can't buy everything" about them, or "money can't buy happiness" or "money can't buy class." I don't really want to be like those people -- I have enough living where I do and how I do. I happen to live in America, but I'll just bet there are millions of people around the world who have happy, satisfying lives where they live, and who really don't want to emulate someone who doesn't appear to be as happy and content as they are. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. 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mardigrasbob 0 #55 June 7, 2004 Cool, but you were right about one thing. Not all people in California are 'stoned out surfers', but give me time, I'm working on it! Blue skies, Bob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #56 June 7, 2004 QuoteCool, but you were right about one thing. Not all people in California are 'stoned out surfers', but give me time, I'm working on it! Blue skies, Bob I'd love to learn to surf! The waves over here suck, though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scratch 0 #57 June 7, 2004 Sheesh I don't hate Americans in the least. I'm an animal lover after all and think everybody should own at least two. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Newbie 0 #58 June 7, 2004 QuoteQuoteThis is a question for all Americans out there. Im curious whether you realise how much the world hates you and what you consider the reasons to be. NB I dont hate America or its citizens per se, although I consider it has rather unusual foreign policies. Judging by some of the Ugly Americans I encounter around the world, it is hardly surprising. Add to that the sheer inelegance with which we traditionally wield both power and "aid" and you have a pretty repellent mix. When people ask me if we have lost our fucking minds by virtue of one particularly enlightened policy or another, I can only answer "I suspect so." We are a nation with a short attention span, and we do not tend to do our homework. Our leaders are but a reflection of who and what we really are. When we are finally and fully hoist with our own petard I will refrain from a good "I told you so," since I will be as badly screwed as my fellow countrymen. Thus you should all enjoy yourseves, since it is much, much later than you think. Blue skies (with dark clouds on the horizon), Winsor great post "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #59 June 7, 2004 There was a nice programme on the American Empire this weekend. The piece was by Niall Ferguson, author of "Colossus: The Price of America's Empire." from a somewhat partisan review... http://enjoyment.independent.co.uk/books/reviews/story.jsp?story=520951 "Ferguson's attack on this preposterous American self-image is more from the right than the left. A central argument is that it is better to be honest about US interests overseas than to pretend they don't exist or aren't important. Further, the world needs an empire - and the American is the only one on offer. The trouble is, he concedes, that it is a most peculiar empire. Its main weapons are the dollar, the bomb, entertainment and rhetoric, but not a lot else. It will do anything to avoid calling itself an empire; its citizens don't bother much about foreign languages and cultures, and it is not in the business of long-term administration of distant territories." The book looks like interesting reading and ostensibly argues that America is just about the best placed of all historic empires to actually make a go of it. Whether or not this is a globally popular role for America to adopt is probably at the root of this entire thread.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rickjump1 0 #60 June 7, 2004 Your post had a very calming effect on me. Thank you. I think I get a little wound up sometimes; maybe a little too defensive. You are right about the grease.Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 151 #61 June 7, 2004 I would say being in Europe it is not jealousy. I also don't think that "most" westerners hate the US. I would say you are generally perceived as ignorant of world affairs & arrogant. (not sure if you've seen the maps circulated around showing american geography - large grey areas with details showing "we bombed here"...) I don't know what's up with the Arab world and their view of the US though... Africa - they tend to see the US as trying to "colonise" them at least that is what I have heard... and no they are not jealous they just want to be left alone to run their dictatorships in peace Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #62 June 7, 2004 tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Red_Skydiver 0 #63 June 7, 2004 Quote As far as Europe goes, I think jealousy has a lot to do with it and, personally, I could give a rat's ass what they think. Jealous? What of exactly? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #64 June 7, 2004 Quote Quote As far as Europe goes, I think jealousy has a lot to do with it and, personally, I could give a rat's ass what they think. Jealous? What of exactly? Off the top of my head... - The extent of freedom that we enjoy. - Our dominating success in the world economy. - The relatively short period of time that it took us to achieve that success. - Our overwhelming military strength as the one and only superpower. - The controlling influence we have over world affairs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #65 June 7, 2004 You flatter yourself and your country. In the western world there is no jealousy of the US nor of its residents. None. That's not to say it's not a cool place - I love to visit, but there is no jealousy. Also, there is no significant difference in the amount of freedom enjoyed by American's when compared to the rest of the west. Certainly none perceived - if they’re not perceived they’re not missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #66 June 7, 2004 Also, there is no significant difference in the amount of freedom enjoyed by American's when compared to the rest of the west. Certainly none perceived - if they’re not perceived they’re not missed. Yeah...I guess it's all relative. If you don't know you're getting f%$#ed, I guess it doesn't matter. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #67 June 7, 2004 Well I made that comment like that mainly because the only "freedom" I could think of that is available in America but not in some other western countries is the "freedom" to bear arms. Now, the problem with holding that against other westerners and saying 'look at my country, isnt it great, we can bear arms' is that most other countries will say 'thats nice, we don't want to bear arms, have fun over there'. They don't percieve that freedom as being an advantage so they don't miss it. Perhaps a better analogy would therefore be - if you're gay, why would you complain about being "fucked in the ass". Something one person would complain about, you quite like. Damnit, now I just compaired the rest of the western world to a puff. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackC 0 #68 June 7, 2004 QuoteQuote Quote As far as Europe goes, I think jealousy has a lot to do with it and, personally, I could give a rat's ass what they think. Jealous? What of exactly? Off the top of my head... - The extent of freedom that we enjoy. - Our dominating success in the world economy. - The relatively short period of time that it took us to achieve that success. - Our overwhelming military strength as the one and only superpower. - The controlling influence we have over world affairs. Jealousy? Nah. Personally, I wouldn't want to be an American, I don't much fancy the sense-of-humour bypass or the ego augmentation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 151 #69 June 7, 2004 Can you name freedom's that you have that we do not enjoy across France/Germany/UK? In fact if liberal attitudes towards nudity carry any weight with regards to freedom then I would say Europe has more freedom than you Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kerr 0 #70 June 7, 2004 Havn't there been a few cases reasently where US citizens have been detained indefinitely without trial or even charged with anything? I'd consider that a pretty large breach of freedom. Certainly many would consider parts of the Patroit Act to stand in stark contrast to the principles of freedom. It can be argued that the Patroit Act and detaining people indefinitely without trial is in the interests of national security, however it must also be accepted that these measures reduce the freedom you so clearly hold dear. In the current climate, crowing about freedom while it is being taken away from you, makes you look blind to the reality fo the situation. -- Kerr Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Red_Skydiver 0 #71 June 7, 2004 No. You're wrong. In fact it is usually the arrogant attitude that many Americans have (not all of them) that people don't like (e.g. thinking you have the best country in the world). Yes, you have the military and financial power but so what!!?? That does not make me jealous, there is more to life than money and killing people. There are good things and bad things that come from America just like any country in the world (including my own). I don't hate America but I don't particulary like it either, it's the ignorant people that insist it is the best country that I don't like. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #72 June 7, 2004 QuoteIm curious whether you realise how much the world hates you and what you consider the reasons to be. What makes you say that? Some hidden resentment? In my global travles I've not encountered that. In fact many places welcome Americans, probably due to the large amounts of money they tend to bring along with them. It's the French that are generaly dissliked through out the world anyway...---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,463 #73 June 7, 2004 >In fact many places welcome Americans, probably due to the large > amounts of money they tend to bring along with them. And there are many places that don't judge people by how rich they are. As has been mentioned before, such places often judge you on your character rather than your wallet. One of the coolest experiences I've had was spending a month in sub-sahara africa, living in a village of 300 with a peace corps volunteer. In the larger cities they disliked whites, because the whites they saw were all rich, and when rich people enter an economy like that it crowds poor people out very quickly. (If you make $60,000 a year, do you care if sugar is 8 cents a kilo or 20? How about if you make $100 a year?) It led to a city where whites drove fancy cars past native people dying in the streets. But in the country that was reversed. I was the first white man they had ever seen. (Also the largest, and the first person they had ever seen with hair on their arms.) Their experience with white people was limited to two Peace Corps volunteers and me, and as far as they could tell, all white people wanted to do was help them dig wells, plant different kinds of crops, and get their kids to take vitamins. Often they didn't want to do any of those things, but they thought it was sure nice of us to offer to help. People all over the world are pretty good judges of character, I think. If the americans they see are Peace Corps people, they are going to have a high opinion of them. If they are Donald Trump clones, they are going to decide they have no use for them. BTW I realized while I was over there that the Peace Corps does a tremendous amount of good, but I think most of the good is that americans leave there with a real sense of what the rest of the world is like - and I think that sense is often sorely missing in modern america. The people in the Peace Corps often go on to become politicians and leaders, and those are the people who most need a realistic view of how the rest of the world works. I got a lot out of it even in the short time I was there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,667 #74 June 7, 2004 QuoteQuote Quote As far as Europe goes, I think jealousy has a lot to do with it and, personally, I could give a rat's ass what they think. Jealous? What of exactly? Off the top of my head... - The extent of freedom that we enjoy. - Our dominating success in the world economy. - The relatively short period of time that it took us to achieve that success. - Our overwhelming military strength as the one and only superpower. - The controlling influence we have over world affairs. Which particular western European nations are you thinking of, and which particular freedoms are they missing?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,166 #75 June 7, 2004 Not replying to anyone in particular. But you know "those rich assholes" (most towns have some) who live in unbelievable leisure, and who think that their voice should count for more in town because they're bigwigs, rich, and have a lot of money? Their kids have bigger, newer cars than anyone, and they think that makes them cool. People often say "money can't buy everything" about them, or "money can't buy happiness" or "money can't buy class." I don't really want to be like those people -- I have enough living where I do and how I do. I happen to live in America, but I'll just bet there are millions of people around the world who have happy, satisfying lives where they live, and who really don't want to emulate someone who doesn't appear to be as happy and content as they are. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
